Belief... or lack thereof

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bzzzzz wrong!
Our “software” seems to have evolved. From simple principles such as avoid danger & get food & breed, through social behaviors like those found in wolf packs or hyenas, to us.
It’s faulty, as we’d expect from such evolution… unlike what we’d expect from a super-designer/creator (of course, such a designer could arbitrarily choose to design faulty beings).
My friend you keep contradicting your own analogy in a two step cyclic argument.
  1. Compare ourselves to a computer, hardware and software.
  2. Don’t compare ourselves to a computer, hardware and software.
It is an incredibly common comparison which unfortunately doesn’t work. It’s faulty. Please ditch the rationale. Comparing apples with oranges does not equate apples with oranges. Like sands through the hour glass so are the days of our lives.

I disagree that the creature is faulty. You are possibly confusing “faulty” with the “constraint” placed on physical being.
 
bzzzzz wrong!
Our “software” seems to have evolved. From simple principles such as avoid danger & get food & breed, through social behaviors like those found in wolf packs or hyenas, to us.
It’s faulty, as we’d expect from such evolution… unlike what we’d expect from a super-designer/creator (of course, such a designer could arbitrarily choose to design faulty beings).
First wrong assertion.
Software does NOT evolve.

It has no reason to. Software at it’s core is a step by step recipe to DO something.
And it is precisely for this reason that AI research is the modern equivalent to the Babel tower. (A fools errand). :rolleyes: We could create a facsimile that looks like human intelligence but does NOT equate to the soul.

AI is an attempt to figure out the software that runs our soul.
Yes NOT our brain software for we KNOW that dead people CAN have memories of events that were NOT recorded in their brains.
When you remove the juice of an AI it is truly dead, for it was never alive. It will have no recollection of the time without “juice” like the human can.

Assertion number two
Again your are mistaken. Software CAN be corrupted, as any one know that has a computer, by a virus.
And IT WAS, in our case by SIN. Yes sin is the virus.
And sin has corrupted and continues to corrupt our “Software” to what we have today.

However GOD had a plan all along and sent HIS own version of “Norton Antivirus”.
His name however is NOT “Norton” or McAfee" it is Jesus.
Through HIM we can little by little restore our software to an acceptable level of performance that will allow us to be fully restored to our pre-fall specs. :cool:

 
My friend you keep contradicting your own analogy in a two step cyclic argument.
  1. Compare ourselves to a computer, hardware and software.
  2. Don’t compare ourselves to a computer, hardware and software.
It is an incredibly common comparison which unfortunately doesn’t work. It’s faulty. Please ditch the rationale. Comparing apples with oranges does not equate apples with oranges. Like sands through the hour glass so are the days of our lives.

I disagree that the creature is faulty. You are possibly confusing “faulty” with the “constraint” placed on physical being.
No, it is faulty.
Can you perfectly recall every single instant of your life? no? not perfect, then. I know there are claims of a few people who can… (maybe that’s just in fiction?)

I compare with the computer up to the point where thoughts are, in a way, like the joint currents flowing through the computer’s memory, processor, buses, screen, etc.

The assembly of the human brain is apparently different from the assembly of the computer… Perhaps the computer is inspired by Nature?

Please ditch that narrow track mindedness of black&white. Things have more subtleties than we usually consider.
 
Hi Jerry!
Welcome!
First wrong assertion.
Software does NOT evolve.

It has no reason to. Software at it’s core is a step by step recipe to DO something.
And it is precisely for this reason that AI research is the modern equivalent to the Babel tower. (A fools errand). :rolleyes: We could create a facsimile that looks like human intelligence but does NOT equate to the soul.
Yep… such a fools errand, that such a AI has passed on the turing test.
AI is an attempt to figure out the software that runs our soul.
AI is an attempt to mimic its results.
If you can’t discern AI from human, is that AI truly alive?
An interesting question somewhat explored in the movie Ex-Machina.
Yes NOT our brain software for we KNOW that dead people CAN have memories of events that were NOT recorded in their brains.
We “know” what?!! :eek:
When you remove the juice of an AI it is truly dead, for it was never alive. It will have no recollection of the time without “juice” like the human can.

Assertion number two
Again your are mistaken. Software CAN be corrupted, as any one know that has a computer, by a virus.
And IT WAS, in our case by SIN. Yes sin is the virus.
And sin has corrupted and continues to corrupt our “Software” to what we have today.

However GOD had a plan all along and sent HIS own version of “Norton Antivirus”.
His name however is NOT “Norton” or McAfee" it is Jesus.
Through HIM we can little by little restore our software to an acceptable level of performance that will allow us to be fully restored to our pre-fall specs. :cool:

I… just… bah… I can’t even think of how to begin to reply to this…
You’re putting so many things on the table I’d get lost trying to address them all…
Assumptions you’re using in a particular manner with which I most likely disagree:
  • God
  • Plan
  • Sin
  • Fall
  • Jesus
And you knew I’d disagree with them. Why did you put that up there?

(although, I must admit, I liked your analogy of restoring “our software to an acceptable level of performance that will allow us to be fully restored to our pre-fall specs.” 😉 That was inspired! 👍)
 
bzzzzz wrong!
Our “software” seems to have evolved. From simple principles such as avoid danger & get food & breed, through social behaviors like those found in wolf packs or hyenas, to us.
It’s faulty, as we’d expect from such evolution… unlike what we’d expect from a super-designer/creator (of course, such a designer could arbitrarily choose to design faulty beings).
glad you said ‘seems’. cause nothing complex comes from something simple without a ‘director’.
 
Hi Jerry!
Welcome!

Yep… such a fools errand, that such a AI has passed on the turing test.

AI is an attempt to mimic its results.
If you can’t discern AI from human, is that AI truly alive?
An interesting question somewhat explored in the movie Ex-Machina.
:uhmm: actually that is NOT what the researchers into AI want to do. Yes imitation was the choice made by Alan Turing back in the 60’s when computer technology was in it’s infancy.

Since you used wikipedia here is what TODAY goal for AI is:
Artificial intelligence (AI) is the intelligence exhibited by machines or software. It is also the name of the academic field of study which studies how to create computers and computer software that are capable of intelligent behavior. Major AI researchers and textbooks define this field as “the study and design of intelligent agents”,[1] in which an intelligent agent is a system that perceives its environment and takes actions that maximize its chances of success.[2] John McCarthy, who coined the term in 1955,[3] defines it as “the science and engineering of making intelligent machines”.[4]
Now by that standard I am afraid the “Turing Test” is wholly unacceptable since the premise is extremely subjective. From the Turing article you quoted:
Turing’s new question is: “Are there imaginable digital computers which would do well in the imitation game?”[5]
As you see current computers can pass that test with flying colours, IF you dumb down, who is asking the questions to the computer and provide it (the computer) with access to a large enough database of knowledge.

The real test of intelligence comes when the machine needs to generate a response for which there is NO directly indexable and therefore searchable solution.

In other words the computer needs to make a decision by itself and NOT choose a pre-cooked and pre-digested answer.
For what is fact we have is a parrot not an intelligent BEING.

Notice the word “being”, something GOD answered to Moses when he asked what GOD name was. And GOD answered “I AM WHO I AM”. Or as our current theological understanding of GOD is, GOD is BEING itself, a non contingent entity.

Notice that Turing original question was discarded a priory since he knew that no machinery can do that.
Alan Turing in his 1950 paper “Computing Machinery and Intelligence,” while working at The University of Manchester (Turing, 1950; p. 460).[3] It opens with the words: “I propose to consider the question, ‘Can machines think?’” Because “thinking” is difficult to define
Only a human being can exhibit rational thinking.
Many animals have the ability to mimic human behaviour.
Some can produce sounds and even words learned from their human companions.
Others can mimic other human behaviours again by learning (memorizing) them from their human companions.
All can replay the learned pattern when the conditioning prompts them to do so.
However none can produce a coherent AND independent thought.

 
The real test of intelligence comes when the machine needs to generate a response for which there is NO directly indexable and therefore searchable solution.

In other words the computer needs to make a decision by itself and NOT choose a pre-cooked and pre-digested answer.
You may find that’s impossible. Because we don’t do that ourselves.

If you are asked a question, you simply access the available data (memory in other words, in the case of humans and machines) and correlate it with the question. The answer you give will only depended on the available data.

You sort it, sift it, generate various possibilities depending on which information you choose to use and produce what you believe to be the best available answer.

The only difference between you and a computer is that you have personal preferences and prejudices. Which means that the answers you give will be biased. A computer’s won’t be unless you build those preferences and bias into the software. And that’s where the ‘artificial’ comes from in Artifical Intelligence. You have to artificially make it as inefficient as we are.
 
You may find that’s impossible. Because we don’t do that ourselves.

If you are asked a question, you simply access the available data (memory in other words, in the case of humans and machines) and correlate it with the question. The answer you give will only depended on the available data.

You sort it, sift it, generate various possibilities depending on which information you choose to use and produce what you believe to be the best available answer.

The only difference between you and a computer is that you have personal preferences and prejudices. Which means that the answers you give will be biased. A computer’s won’t be unless you build those preferences and bias into the software. And that’s where the ‘artificial’ comes from in Artifical Intelligence. You have to artificially make it as inefficient as we are.
Do you think love makes us “inefficient”? That is, love, when factored in to our decision-making process, may not cause us to make the most efficient choice.
 
You may find that’s impossible. Because we don’t do that ourselves.

If you are asked a question, you simply access the available data (memory in other words, in the case of humans and machines) and correlate it with the question. The answer you give will only depended on the available data.

You sort it, sift it, generate various possibilities depending on which information you choose to use and produce what you believe to be the best available answer.

The only difference between you and a computer is that you have personal preferences and prejudices. Which means that the answers you give will be biased. A computer’s won’t be unless you build those preferences and bias into the software. And that’s where the ‘artificial’ comes from in Artifical Intelligence. You have to artificially make it as inefficient as we are.
I see… That is the way that all our current knowledge came about! 😦

I am sorry but I am out of this conversation! 🤷

 
Do you think love makes us “inefficient”? That is, love, when factored in to our decision-making process, may not cause us to make the most efficient choice.
Hoo yes. Love is a very enjoyable glitch in the system. Makes us do all sorts of stupid and illogical things.

Spend money we don’t have, live places we don’t like, make promises we can’t keep. I know I’d be a hell of a lot richer if I hadn’t fallen in love. But then, being efficient (and rich) and being happy don’t really correlate.
 
I see… That is the way that all our current knowledge came about!
You gather information and decide on how best it should be used. Well, yeah. People tell you stuff. You gain practical experience. You read books. You go to school. You learn, which is another way of saying that you gather information. And then you make decisions based on what you know.

Am I missing something here?
 
Hoo yes. Love is a very enjoyable glitch in the system. Makes us do all sorts of stupid and illogical things.
Interesting.

I would say that almost all of the things I’ve done out of love were not stupid at all.

They may have not been the choice that an algorithm would have made, but they certainly were wise and fruitful.

So, I, for one, am quite grateful that I do not make my decisions based on the computer model.

Thankfully, God has given us the magnificent ability to supercede this algorithm in favor of a more loving, humane, charitable choice.
 
:uhmm: actually that is NOT what the researchers into AI want to do. Yes imitation was the choice made by Alan Turing back in the 60’s when computer technology was in it’s infancy.

Since you used wikipedia here is what TODAY goal for AI is:

Now by that standard I am afraid the “Turing Test” is wholly unacceptable since the premise is extremely subjective. From the Turing article you quoted:

As you see current computers can pass that test with flying colours, IF you dumb down, who is asking the questions to the computer and provide it (the computer) with access to a large enough database of knowledge.
How do you decide if a person is dumb? Or smart?
How can you tell if a person is intelligent?
What happens when you apply the same to a computer?
observer.com/2015/06/artificially-intelligent-computer-outperforms-humans-on-iq-test/
The real test of intelligence comes when the machine needs to generate a response for which there is NO directly indexable and therefore searchable solution.

In other words the computer needs to make a decision by itself and NOT choose a pre-cooked and pre-digested answer.
For what is fact we have is a parrot not an intelligent BEING.
And how do they decide to provide a particular answer?
Notice the word “being”, something GOD answered to Moses when he asked what GOD name was. And GOD answered “I AM WHO I AM”. Or as our current theological understanding of GOD is, GOD is BEING itself, a non contingent entity.

Notice that Turing original question was discarded a priory since he knew that no machinery can do that.

Only a human being can exhibit rational thinking.
Many animals have the ability to mimic human behaviour.
Some can produce sounds and even words learned from their human companions.
Others can mimic other human behaviours again by learning (memorizing) them from their human companions.
All can replay the learned pattern when the conditioning prompts them to do so.
However none can produce a coherent AND independent thought.

You think humans are so darn special?.. 🤷
Everything animals do which is a bit above intuition, is taught by humans, huh? Trained, huh?

Crows (not taught by humans): youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
[

Morality in animals: youtube.com/watch?v=_bnur3gHJ0syoutube.com/watch?v=i0FiM50Uhzcyoutube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0808_020808_crow.html)
 
You think humans are so darn special?.. 🤷
Everything animals do which is a bit above intuition, is taught by humans, huh? Trained, huh?

Crows (not taught by humans): youtube.com/watch?v=BGPGknpq3e0
[&url]

Dolphins: youtube.com/watch?v=_bnur3gHJ0s](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0808_020808_crow.html)
youtube.com/watch?v=i0FiM50Uhzc

Morality in animals: youtube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk

TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And water’d heaven with their tears,
Did He smile His work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?

these animals are made by the same creator who made us and share in part in some of his attributes as we do also.
 
First wrong assertion.
Software does NOT evolve.

It has no reason to. Software at it’s core is a step by step recipe to DO something.
Some might disagree. There is an area within Artificial Intelligence known as “Evolutionary Computing” about algorithms that evolve. I won’t go into details here but if interested I encourage you to check it out and reconsider what you said above.
 
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