Believe everything or get out

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It claims to, anyway. If a Catholic thinks that the Church could be wrong about contraception, then that Catholic does not really believe that the Church teaches with authority.
Hi Leela,
I’m sure a lot of Catholics struggle with various aspects of Church teaching. The Church, though, is community. As my brother struggles so too do I; as he finds fulfillment, again so do I. Belief is a constant challenge. Not only must we inform our consciences fully; we must also challenge ourselves to challenge a world in the grip of sin.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
Thank you all your wonderful answers and inspiring words.

I am truly grateful to have read all your post. Many of you made me realize that I am not alone and that I am going trough a process that is common for many. I greatly appreciate the advice on how to increase my faith, increase my knowledge of the Church and determining the best way to compile a rational and spiritual view of certain position I have issues with.

I am truly grateful. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

Pax Christi
 
Wowbagger, good point, we do all have teachings that are hard to understand for us - for some it is the Eucharist, for others confession to a priest, or fasting on Good Friday, or the obligation to attend Mass on every Sunday and Holy Day.

In regards ‘free will’ - I don’t know that it means we are completely autonomous. Since we depend upon God for the very air we breathe, the very bodies we act with, and the very brains with which we think and decide, I don’t think we are completely autonomous.

HOWEVER, I also don’t think complete autonomy is necessary, nor completely ‘free’ will, for us to be moral agents and responsible for our actions. Even very young children who are not very mature as moral thinkers or as rational agents, can nonetheless at least sometimes have sufficient independence of thought and action to be held accountable.

Remember also that the conditions of mortal sin include free consent, which implies that there are situations where consent is lacking. This may be lacking, for example, because other people force us, but can also mean that we of our own selves lack sufficient capacity for thought or control.

An example of what I mean is contained in the catechism teaching on culpability for masturbation - which clearly states that factors like emotional immaturity and force of habit can make a person culpable for this sin to a lesser degree, such that what is ordinarily a mortal sin can for that person carry only a venial level of culpability.
 
Once again, to reiterate most responses, we all struggle at times with various aspects of doctrine. But if we are to truly satisfy Our Lord after exhaustive (for some) investigation, study, argumentation and prayer, we will meekly follow His church in all it’s teachings because we will then understand all the teachings of His church.
For some of us this may require a lifetime of study, for others they will accept as their abilities and inclinations allow.
Gerry
 
Should I leave the Church because I believe we are not heading the right way on certain issues?
Although I cannot understand why anyone would stay in any church whose teachings they cannot accept, don’t leave. If you leave and find a Church that “suits” you, you won’t have any beliefs to mature into.
 
GrandeChartreus:

Take a lesson from the family and children. Early the children recognize the limits of their expression and come to know authority and obedience. They still make known their likes and dislikes but know inside the last word and decision comes from the parent.

The institution of Church is similar. The lay community is granted leeway in expression CC907, but he recognizes his limits and loyalties. The lay person leaves the last word to the authority, who in it’s highest office is Christ himself who will always protect his institution. So in any concern the end result will always be an intact and functional Church.

I would say to you to rest easy. You are allowed to voice your concerns or disapproval in a pious way and in contentment that someone has heard your objection. After this there is nothing you can do has you will be stepping out of your bounds. Temptations from this point on can be considered has grandstanding, where the person seeks to overthrow legitimate dogma and create schism. Here the person seeks a podium to advance a protest in order to sway peoples into darkness and confusion and away from the Church.

The Church welcomes dialogue and opinions, and you are welcome to express these among an appropriate group depending on the levels of certainty Sententia Pia and Opinio Tolerata*. Other levels are off limits has they are accepted doctrine.

AndyF

*(The Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Ludwig Ott)
 
Contraception hasn’t helped reduce abortion, it has probably increased it. Depending where you read, 50 - 75% of abortions are for contraceptive failure - Guttmacher Inst. stat’s say 54%, and they’re the research arm of Planned Parenthood.

Contraception and abortion only serve to make women available to men for sex. Plain and simple. Can’t have those pesky foetuses getting in teh way of no strings attached sexual shenanigans.

And up until about 1930s all Christian churches agreed with teh Catholic Church that contraception was sinful.

Logic demands that you oppose contraception as it leads to a “well, I was trying to NOT get pregnant thus my abortion is justified” nonsense, not to mention it deminishes the sacredness of sex et cetera.
 
Once again, to reiterate most responses, we all struggle at times with various aspects of doctrine. But if we are to truly satisfy Our Lord after exhaustive (for some) investigation, study, argumentation and prayer, we will meekly follow His church in all it’s teachings because we will then understand all the teachings of His church.
For some of us this may require a lifetime of study, for others they will accept as their abilities and inclinations allow.
Gerry
I left the Church because realized that I didn’t believe the Church speaks with Christ’s authority. I have heard the arguments in favor of that belief, but find them unconvincing.
 
I left the Church because realized that I didn’t believe the Church speaks with Christ’s authority. I have heard the arguments in favor of that belief, but find them unconvincing.
That is so sad, and I will pray that you find your peace. However, I doubt if you can find a “church” that conforms 100% with your personal beliefs. Sometimes, we have to think of Jesus saying “your will, not mine”, and then it makes us ponder. I often think about my resentment with the “undue” restrictions that my parents imposed on me when I was a child, and now that I’ve grown up – I found it amusing that I impose the same restrictions on my children. I realized it was all borne out of love. Sometimes, we have to think beyond the arguments. His thoughts are not our thoughts, and then we have to think of the 4 marks of the one true Church that Jesus instituted for our salvation: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. I will pray for your journey.
 
Me too! I’m glad I’m not the only one here on this forum struggling with the teaching on free will.:cool:
It must be a Minnesota thing, dude. High five.
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LilyM:
In regards ‘free will’ - I don’t know that it means we are completely autonomous. Since we depend upon God for the very air we breathe, the very bodies we act with, and the very brains with which we think and decide, I don’t think we are completely autonomous. HOWEVER, I also don’t think complete autonomy is necessary, nor completely ‘free’ will, for us to be moral agents…

An example of what I mean is contained in the catechism teaching on culpability for masturbation - which clearly states that factors like emotional immaturity and force of habit can make a person culpable for this sin to a lesser degree, such that what is ordinarily a mortal sin can for that person carry only a venial level of culpability.
This point gets close to the heart of my difficulties with the free will doctrine. The problem is that (it appears to me), humans are never autonomous in any way. We have the occasional illusion of autonomy, but, in truth, we are completely controlled by circumstances outside our control.

Consider: when you make a decision, what factors play a role in that decision? Your desires play a big role, of course. So do your responsibilities. Your intellect is a big part of decision-making (for moral and non-moral decisions alike), and so is the accumulated wisdom (good and bad) that has come from your experience, or from the lessons you were taught by your parents and your schoolteachers and your culture. Lots of incidental things, like mood, impairment, duress, anxiety, illness, hastiness, and relative ignorance contribute to your choices. Even genetics play a part in forming your intellect, will, and passions. Perhaps the greatest part of decision-making is ruled by the habits, good and bad, that you have built up over the course of a lifetime as a result of your previous choices (each of which were ruled by the same factors). Let’s not discount the effects of grace and original sin, either, which come entirely from God!

Now, how many of those factors are actually under your control? How many of them did you cause and shape by your own free action? How many of them are your responsibility?

The answer, it appears, is none. Obviously, no one can be held accountable for compulsion by external forces (like duress), but neither can anyone be held accountable for compulsion by internal forces. If a boy with Downs Syndrome could not memorize a multiplication table, I would not accuse him of laziness; I would recognize that his intellect is too feeble to master what comes to me easily. Similarly, when I see a notorious evildoer commit some wild debauchery, I find it very difficult to accuse him of committing deliberate evil. Rather, I recognize that the evildoer suffers from an overly weak will, or a weak intellect, or very strong passions. He may have been given these weaknesses by God; they may have been inculcated by those who raised him; or he may have simply fallen into error. Either way, he is not really responsible for his evil choices. The person who controls all those factors that led to those evil choices – directly or indirectly – is God.

We Catholics are generally more willing to recognize this when we talk about saints, actually. The saints (and we along with them) are very ready to credit all their holiness, all their success, all their good hearts and good acts, to the grace of God alone. They refuse to take credit for any of their goodness, because they see how the hand of God has made them what they are. They were guided to goodness by factors beyond their control – guided by the invisible hand of God.

And so it seems to me, LilyM, that the Catechism’s note on culpability for masturbation applies equally to every particular sin ever committed by mankind. It seems to be that the only person who could be said to be morally accountable for human actions (good or bad) is God Himself. This, of course, makes Catholic doctrines about salvation and damnation very difficult. But, on the bright side, the Catholic teaching on predestination, which often shocks the consciences of those who easily believe in free will, makes perfect sense to me.

I submit to the Church’s teaching, and accept that I am ultimately wrong about free will. But I do not understand why I am wrong. The search continues!

In the meantime, one of my hobbies is picking out those of my seminarian friends who have gotten a little too cocky and self-satisfied about the Church, taking them aside at a party, and explaining this dilemma to them. Brings 'em right back down to Earth. 😛

Anyhow, I’ve drifted off topic. Sorry, Grande!
 
Humans are never autonomous in any way.
OK, autonomy isn’t the right term. Let’s say independence or freedom. One can be sufficiently independent or free in thought and action to be culpable, surely, without being autonomous?
Let’s not discount the effects of grace and original sin, either, which come entirely from God!
My circumstances may not (or not all) be under my control. But I can almost always have at least a measure of control over my response to them. Guarantee you, even if you put identical twins who’ve been brought up as similarly as possible in the same situation, and are as alike as possible in every other way too, they won’t necessarily react the same. They at keast at times will make different choices and react in different ways to the same stimuli. Heck, you put ME in the same situation twice in a row, all other things being equal, I wouldn’t necessarily behave the same way both times.

Original sin did NOT come entirely (or at all) from God. It came from human misuse of free will. Just because God CAN do anything and everything doesn’t mean He DOES do everything or anything - creatures do act on their own!
We Catholics are generally more willing to recognize this when we talk about saints, actually. The saints (and we along with them) are very ready to credit all their holiness, all their success, all their good hearts and good acts, to the grace of God alone. They refuse to take credit for any of their goodness.
Of course you DO believe that we are responsible for our actions - to say otherwise is totally hypocritical. I’m sure if you worked for 8 hours digging a ditch for your city council you’d demand just pay for it and wouldn’t say ‘oh well, God did it, not me, so don’t pay me!’ So you of course believe that you are sufficiently responsible for that work to deserve payment for it!

And so do saints and the Church. Put it this way - do you honestly think we canonise God and Him alone for the goodness of each Saint? Or do we honour the person themselves as well, for their achievements? THe answer should be obvious - why give a feast day to a mere helpless tool in the hand of the Almighty? The Star of Bethlehem doesn’t get a feast day in its honour, yet it did God’s will and showed forth His glory every bit as much, in your sense, as any Saint.

In scripture, it’s not called ‘Acts of God using the Apostles’, it’s called ‘Acts OF the Apostles’. And there’s no question but that they work and exercise their independent will for His glory.

Paul talks about his own works at length. He even calls himself a co-labourer with God at one point, and at another says that HE saves people - as in ‘I became all things to all men, that by all means Imight save some’. Pretty presumptuous if all we are is non-free-willing instruments of God.
And so it seems to me, LilyM, that the Catechism’s note on culpability for masturbation applies equally to every particular sin ever committed by mankind.
In that things like addiction or force of habit can negate our consent, it DOES apply to every grave sin. But not every background circumstance, or collection of circumstances, is of such weight or import that it sufficiently negates our will. Courts recognise that when they punish wrongdoers, and so does God.
This, of course, makes Catholic doctrines about salvation and damnation very difficult. But, on the bright side, the Catholic teaching on predestination, which often shocks the consciences of those who easily believe in free will, makes perfect sense to me.
The Church doesn’t teach and never has taught NEGATIVE predestination, however. Paul mentions those predestined to be saved, but there is no such thing as predestination for Hell. God has TOLD us in scripture what HIS will is for all men, which is salvation for each and every soul. In that some of us aren’t saved, His will is thus clearly being thwarted.

And when Jesus spoke in Gethsemane of ‘not my will, but Thine’, He clearly indicates that the two (human will and God’s will) are not one and the same thing. If humans lacked autonomy as you state, and if God had complete control over everything, as you also state, then His will and our human will WOULD be one and the same - and Christ’s prayer wouldn’t even be possible, logically speaking.

Start from first principles. Scripture assures us of two things:

a) God wills salvation for all. Do you believe this? There’s no reason not to - salvation being eternity in His presence, why WOULD He will any of His beloved creatures not to be with Him for eternity?

b) People are damned. Again, scripture, God’s word, tells us so. Do you believe this? Again, there’s no reason not to.

These two principles being a given, what then could possibly be the cause of people being damned, as again He makes abundantly clear that some are? Like Sherlock Holmes, we must eliminate the impossible and see what remains. Cruelty? Impossible - if so why not damn all of us and so maximise His enjoyment?

Double predestination? Again impossible - if so why not clearly tell us that some are predestined for damnation so that they need not bother trying to get into heaven? Like an employer setting out criteria in a job ad so that he or she isn’t swamped with applications by unsuitable candidates?

What remains? Any other possible reasons why people would be damned for things over which they, as you say, have no control? Or do you think, alternatively, that God lied in scripture? Or that scripture is errant (in which case why belive any of it?)
 
That is so sad, and I will pray that you find your peace. However, I doubt if you can find a “church” that conforms 100% with your personal beliefs. Sometimes, we have to think of Jesus saying “your will, not mine”, and then it makes us ponder. I often think about my resentment with the “undue” restrictions that my parents imposed on me when I was a child, and now that I’ve grown up – I found it amusing that I impose the same restrictions on my children. I realized it was all borne out of love. Sometimes, we have to think beyond the arguments. His thoughts are not our thoughts, and then we have to think of the 4 marks of the one true Church that Jesus instituted for our salvation: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. I will pray for your journey.
Thank you. But actually, I’m not looking for a church at all, much less one that conforms to any particular beliefs. I simply don’t believe the claims that the Catholic Church makes for itself.
 
Thank you. But actually, I’m not looking for a church at all, much less one that conforms to any particular beliefs. I simply don’t believe the claims that the Catholic Church makes for itself.
I’m in the same boat. I think there is more to God than is in the Bible or Cathechism.
 
Don’t quit or join any church in an attempt to please the critics. As someone who DID leave, I can tell you these same folks will still heap derision on you. Follow your own heart.
 
I’m in the same boat. I think there is more to God than is in the Bible or Cathechism.
Yes me too. I think that while living the Catholic faith is an excellent way to live one’s life, I think other religions and non-religions can be just as valid when it comes to finding God in this life.
 
Let me share with all of you part of Pope Benedict XVI’s address at the Ecumenical celebration in his current UK visit:
*
Our commitment to Christian unity is born of nothing less than our faith in Christ, in this Christ, risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father, who will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. It is the reality of Christ’s person, his saving work and above all the historical fact of his resurrection, which is the content of the apostolic kerygma and those credal formulas which, beginning in the New Testament itself, have guaranteed the integrity of its transmission. The Church’s unity, in a word, can never be other than a unity in the apostolic faith, in the faith entrusted to each new member of the Body of Christ during the rite of Baptism. It is this faith which unites us to the Lord, makes us sharers in his Holy Spirit, and thus, even now, sharers in the life of the Blessed Trinity, the model of the Church’s koinonia here below.*
 
Let me share with all of you part of Pope Benedict XVI’s address at the Ecumenical celebration in his current UK visit:

Our commitment to Christian unity is born of nothing less than our faith in Christ, in this Christ, risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father, who will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. It is the reality of Christ’s person, his saving work and above all the historical fact of his resurrection, which is the content of the apostolic kerygma and those credal formulas which, beginning in the New Testament itself, have guaranteed the integrity of its transmission. The Church’s unity, in a word, can never be other than a unity in the apostolic faith, in the faith entrusted to each new member of the Body of Christ during the rite of Baptism. It is this faith which unites us to the Lord, makes us sharers in his Holy Spirit, and thus, even now, sharers in the life of the Blessed Trinity, the model of the Church’s koinonia here below.
Thanks for posting this!
 
Let me share with all of you part of Pope Benedict XVI’s address at the Ecumenical celebration in his current UK visit:
*
Our commitment to Christian unity is born of nothing less than our faith in Christ, in this Christ, risen from the dead and seated at the right hand of the Father, who will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. It is the reality of Christ’s person, his saving work and above all the historical fact of his resurrection, which is the content of the apostolic kerygma and those credal formulas which, beginning in the New Testament itself, have guaranteed the integrity of its transmission*. The Church’s unity, in a word, can never be other than a unity in the apostolic faith, in the faith entrusted to each new member of the Body of Christ during the rite of Baptism. It is this faith which unites us to the Lord, makes us sharers in his Holy Spirit, and thus, even now, sharers in the life of the Blessed Trinity, the model of the Church’s koinonia here below.
Hi Willy Jose,
I, too, would like to thank you for posting this quote from the Holy Father.
May I draw your attention to a thread which I’ve begun on Blessed John Henry Newman. It’s on the Traditional Catholicism forum.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
 
Yes me too. I think that while living the Catholic faith is an excellent way to live one’s life, I think other religions and non-religions can be just as valid when it comes to finding God in this life.
I applaud this view but in this belief you seem to be at odds with the Catholic Church which teaches that “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” (Outside the church, there is no salvation).

Religions other than Christianity are considered to be “gravely deficient.” Their rituals can constitute “an obstacle to salvation” for their followers.
 
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