Believing in the True Jesus - Christians vs Baha'is

[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12381282]I am glad that there is no offence taken Gabriel

Have you considered the perspective that what you write above is equally applicable as a Jew to the Revelation of Jesus?

Concomitantly, this whole "revelation ends with “us” " must, if we are to be genuine in spirit, be revisited given the new realities presented in the world, just as it was when Jesus came and said “I am”

I am trying very hard to limit my post’s here.

First of all the Jews who reject their divine Messiah, do not reflect of Jesus from the New Testament, for which I referenced to you from the New Testament.

So, what you suggest, does not apply.

What does apply, are the same Jewish texts from which they reflect. The prophets themselves whom the Jews believe, are the same prophets who speak and condemn the same Jews, who have ears to hear but cannot hear, who have eyes to see, but remain blind.

So, I would have to disagree with you, the analogy you reference does not apply. The Jew just needs to reflect Moses and the prophets who speak of these Jews who reject their own Messiah. Jesus was a Jew, the chosen twelve apostles were all Jews.

I do not hold any Jew in contempt of their own prophets and their own Messiah Moses, because it is Moses who will judge them, never Christians.

I do not see the Bahai religion in this same light as the Jews. Nor do I see the Bahai religion as being the fulfillment of Jesus Christ, when Jesus does not require a fulfillment, when Jesus is the fulfillment of God in presence. Jesus revealed; " Behold I make all things new". The first century Jews expected this divine revelation from God and received it. While some Jews rejected their divine Messiah from the line of King David proven.

I want to thank you Servant 19 for allowing me this opportunity to share my Catholic Faith with you on this forum. I want to apologize for my long posts and hope they did not become vain to you and other readers.

I pray that, what I share of my Catholic Faith here and what you shared of your Bahai faith does not fall on deaf ears, in the hopes that our postings are productive in God’s time.

The Trinity is one of the most profound mysteries that is never exhausted by a definition.

I continue to grow in God’s love when ever I reflect on the mysteries of the Trinity. It has taken more than thirty years of my life and counting to contemplate such a mystery of God, and yet, I confess, the more I contemplate the mystery of the Trinity, the more I come to know, I know nothing. But somehow, God’s graces and the Holy Spirit comfort my heart and spirit in solace with His presence.

Peace be with you Servant 19

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am trying very hard to limit my post’s here.

First of all the Jews who reject their divine Messiah, do not reflect of Jesus from the New Testament, for which I referenced to you from the New Testament.

So, what you suggest, does not apply.

What does apply, are the same Jewish texts from which they reflect. The prophets themselves whom the Jews believe, are the same prophets who speak and condemn the same Jews, who have ears to hear but cannot hear, who have eyes to see, but remain blind.

So, I would have to disagree with you, the analogy you reference does not apply. The Jew just needs to reflect Moses and the prophets who speak of these Jews who reject their own Messiah. Jesus was a Jew, the chosen twelve apostles were all Jews.

I do not hold any Jew in contempt of their own prophets and their own Messiah Moses, because it is Moses who will judge them, never Christians.

I do not see the Bahai religion in this same light as the Jews. Nor do I see the Bahai religion as being the fulfillment of Jesus Christ, when Jesus does not require a fulfillment, when Jesus is the fulfillment of God in presence. Jesus revealed; " Behold I make all things new". The first century Jews expected this divine revelation from God and received it. While some Jews rejected their divine Messiah from the line of King David proven.

I want to thank you Servant 19 for allowing me this opportunity to share my Catholic Faith with you, on this forum. I want to apologize for my long posts and hope they did not become vain to you and other readers.

I pray that, what I share of my Catholic Faith here, and what you shared of your Bahai faith, does not fall on deaf ears, in the hopes that our postings are productive in God’s time.

The Trinity is one of the most profound mysteries that is never exhausted by a definition.

I continue to grow in God’s love when ever I reflect on the mysteries of the Trinity. It has taken more than thirty years of my life to contemplate such a mystery of God, and yet, I confess, the more I contemplate the mystery of the Trinity, the more I come to know, I know nothing. But somehow, God graces and Holy Spirit comfort my heart and spirit in solace of His presence.

Peace be with you Servant 19

 

[Servant19]

Jesus does not emanate from heaven. Jesus revealed He came from heaven. Your emanating relates to things created (space and time) which reaches into the divine mystery not revealing but becomes a theory, that rationalizes God to things created calling them an emanating factor of God.

I am not saying that God is irrational. I am saying God is incomprehensible. Theories such as divinity emanates from God to become something other than God, that is co-equal, co-existing with God’s Essence is unreasonable to God, when God is not created.

Thus your Jesus is not God, and Bahai’s deity is not God just based on your scientific reason that reaches to a theory of an emanating deity. God has never revealed His divinity of Essence co-exists, co-eternal with another deity or any other emanating factor that can co-exist with God’s Essence. For one reason reveals, your emanating theory falls apart here, because God never revealed such a thing.

God created spirits (Angels). God is Spirit. Your emanating theory places Angels on a par with God. This is just another example that disproves God emanates as described by you and your sources.

Just as the singer sings (singing being an emanation of the singer)
Just as the writer writes (writing being the emanation of the writer)
God creates, and His creation is an emanation of Him.

Creator…created

I’m not sure how else you consider creation to have come into existence without this process?? If a Creator does not create, then how else does a creation come into existence?

Having established this truth, one can simply deduce that an infinitely pre-existent Creator, always had a creation (pre-existent too, although not necessarily a physically observable creation within space and time), but this creation is “created”

An uncreated, pre-existent, eternal Creator giving rise, through emanation, to a pre-existent, co-eternal creation.

If the Creator at any point did not have a creation, He was not a Creator. I personally see no flaw in this theology.

Abdu’l-Baha states:
"The Essence of Unity has always been in one condition. which neither changes nor alters, has neither transformation nor vicissitude. He is the Eternal, the Immortal. Therefore, the proceeding of the human spirits from God is through emanation."

At no point does this theology ever imply a “separate deity” or in any way that the “Essence of the Creator” reveals itself in creation. If that were the case, it would be God “manifesting” (not emanating) His creation. Baha’i theology does not profess such a thing.

The World of the Essence of God is forever inaccessible to all created things. I hope that statement is clear.

This is one of many scriptures that describes Jesus divine nature; Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God…in Him ALL things were created, in heaven and earth, visible and invisible…For in Him ALL the FULLNESS OF GOD was pleased TO DWELL.

Thankyou Gabriel, the Baha’i Faith does not necessarily disagree with that, it is the meaning of “all the fullness” which is an exhaustive exploration.

Really? **Servant 19 if your above statement is true, then you have angels giving birth to angels. **

I don’t understand how you conclude this…

God created those things to reproduce of it’s own seed in the material world. Your simplicity is a contradiction, because now you have the spiritual world duplicating the world of matter and repeats it?

Not duplicating the world of matter. The CONCEPTS of the Kingdom are found here within this world of matter.

For example, the sun nourishes, nurtures and provides sustenance for the material growth of all beings on earth.
This concept originates from the world of the Kingdom, where the Sun of Truth (the Manifestation of God) nourishes, nurtures and provides SPIRITUAL sustenance for the SPIRITUAL growth of all beings.

The “concept” repeats itself within creation, that’s all I was saying…

.

 

[SteveVH]

Just as the singer sings (singing being an emanation of the singer)
Just as the writer writes (writing being the emanation of the writer)
God creates, and His creation is an emanation of Him.

Creator…created

Yes, this is fine for those things created. Jesus, however, was not created. He is eternally the Son of the Father. Therefore he does not emanate from the Father. He was begotten, not made, as our creeds have consistently professed.

 

[Servant19]

Yes, this is fine for those things created. Jesus, however, was not created. He is eternally the Son of the Father. Therefore he does not emanate from the Father. He was begotten, not made, as our creeds have consistently professed.

Hi Steve,

Is there anywhere that provides indication that Jesus said He was Uncreated?

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Steve,

Is there anywhere that provides indication that Jesus said He was Uncreated?

.

Dear Servant - This says it all! “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Dear Friend in God I wish you all the best in life and Faith, I will not be around on CAF Much, will just pop in for time to time.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve,

Is there anywhere that provides indication that Jesus said He was Uncreated?

This is what the God of Israel says:

“This is what the LORD says-- Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

This is what Jesus says:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Revelation 22:13)

The ancient creeds which reflect the faith of the Apostles clearly state that Jesus was “begotten, not made…”.

The early Church fathers also attest to this revealed truth:

“Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God . . . For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.” (Irenaeus. Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6, Section 1.)

So, all of Christianity professes this truth, from Sacred Tradition through Sacred Scripture. It is the very fact that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty that separates him from all creatures, such as Baha’u’llah.

Peace.

Steve

 

[Kliska]

This is what the God of Israel says:

“This is what the LORD says-- Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

This is what Jesus says:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Revelation 22:13)

The ancient creeds which reflect the faith of the Apostles clearly state that Jesus was “begotten, not made…”.

The early Church fathers also attest to this revealed truth:

“Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God . . . For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.” (Irenaeus. Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6, Section 1.)

So, all of Christianity professes this truth, from Sacred Tradition through Sacred Scripture. It is the very fact that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty that separates him from all creatures, such as Baha’u’llah.

Peace.

Steve

Amen.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Speaking of Jesus, scripture tells us: Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And further;

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Servant - This says it all! “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.”

Dear Friend in God I wish you all the best in life and Faith, I will not be around on CAF Much, will just pop in for time to time.

God Bless and Regards Tony

Simple as that, heh?

You are speaking from ignorance, not knowledge. You have no understanding of the Holy Trinity and are like those of whom Peter speaks:

“His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3: 16)

Christ had a human will as well as a divine will and always submitted his human will to his divine will as the verse you quoted demonstrates. His divine will is the same as his Father’s will because they are one God.

Jesus is the “Creator”, not the “created”:

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” (John 1:3)

 

[SteveVH]

Amen.

Isaiah 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Speaking of Jesus, scripture tells us: Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And further;

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Thank you, Kliska. Yes, the fact that Jesus is God Almighty, the Creator, is found throughout Scripture for those who have eyes to see.

God bless.

Steve

 

[Servant19]

This is what the God of Israel says:

“This is what the LORD says-- Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)

This is what Jesus says:

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (Revelation 22:13)

The ancient creeds which reflect the faith of the Apostles clearly state that Jesus was “begotten, not made…”.

The early Church fathers also attest to this revealed truth:

“Therefore neither would the Lord, nor the Holy Spirit, nor the apostles, have ever named as God, definitely and absolutely, him who was not God, unless he were truly God . . . For the Spirit designates both [of them] by the name, of God — both Him who is anointed as Son, and Him who does anoint, that is, the Father.” (Irenaeus. Against Heresies, Book 3, Chapter 6, Section 1.)

So, all of Christianity professes this truth, from Sacred Tradition through Sacred Scripture. It is the very fact that Jesus is the Lord God Almighty that separates him from all creatures, such as Baha’u’llah.

Peace.

Steve

None of this says that Jesus was “uncreated”…the creeds made that interpretation and it was incorrect.

The reason I say this is because I have given sufficient evidence to strongly indicate the existence of “first and last” existence in the form of a Creation via emanation which is created, yet also eternal and separate from space and time.

If Jesus or any of the Apostles ever said that Jesus was Uncreated then I stand corrected.



.

 

[Servant19]

Simple as that, heh?

You are speaking from ignorance, not knowledge. You have no understanding of the Holy Trinity and are like those of whom Peter speaks:

“His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” (2 Peter 3: 16)

Christ had a human will as well as a divine will and always submitted his human will to his divine will as the verse you quoted demonstrates. His divine will is the same as his Father’s will because they are one God.

Jesus is the “Creator”, not the “created”:

“Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.” (John 1:3)

I think this thread gives sufficient evidence to indicate that a Created entity can be the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

This is my humble perspective and understanding of Bahai cosmology.

.

 

[SteveVH]

None of this says that Jesus was “uncreated”…the creeds made that interpretation and it was incorrect.

Creeds don’t make an interpretation, people do. What was written in the creeds came from the Apostles, those men who walked, talked, lived and were taught by Jesus Christ. They are far from incorrect. They express the faith revealed to them by Christ.

The reason I say this is because I have given sufficient evidence to strongly indicate the existence of “first and last” existence in the form of a Creation via emanation which is created, yet also eternal and separate from space and time.

Sufficient evidence? Sufficient for whom? One cannot be eternal and at the same time be created. That is an objective, self-evident truth. If one was created there was a time when that one did not exist. “Eternal” means that one has always existed and will always exist; no beginning and no end. So your so-called “evidence” is no evidence at all to one who has some semblance of a rational mind.

Your requirement that the exact word “uncreated” must be used only reveals that you have very limited powers of deduction. Either that or you have already discounted any answer that may be given because your true purpose here is only to promote your agenda. The word eternal, by its very definition, means “uncreated”. Please stop playing games.

 

[SteveVH]

I think this thread gives sufficient evidence to indicate that a Created entity can be the Creator of the heavens and the earth.

This is my humble perspective and understanding of Bahai cosmology.

Very well. Each reader of this thread can make their own determination. From my perspective you have given no evidence at all. What you have given is a good reason why less than 1% of the worlds population have bought into the fallacies of the Baha’i religion.

 

[tonyfish58]

Very well. Each reader of this thread can make their own determination. From my perspective you have given no evidence at all. What you have given is a good reason why less than 1% of the worlds population have bought into the fallacies of the Baha’i religion.

SteveVH - A number argument may very well be a good reason, could it be like a parable in the Bible!

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet needs to be considered - Read Matthew 22 and in the end it comes to Matthew 14

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

In the end the aim of the Baha’i is peace and goodwill - You are firm in what you believe, that does not mean that we can not live in Peace Harmony and Good will to Each Other.

That is how I would see the outcome of any discussion re God.

If we have not achieved that, then we have not achieved what is of God.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH - A number argument may very well be a good reason, could it be like a parable in the Bible!

The Parable of the Wedding Banquet needs to be considered - Read Matthew 22 and in the end it comes to Matthew 14

“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Great point, Tony, except for the fact that it is the Baha’i who refuse to enter the wedding feast and eat at the table.

In any regard, I would never challenge a religion by the numbers of its adherents. My only point is that it is not surprising, given the nature of your beliefs, that few have embraced it. You profess to incorporate Christianity into your beliefs while rejecting everything it believes about its founder, Jesus Christ. Servant flat out states that even the earliest creeds of the Church, the faith of the Apostles, are “incorrect”.

In the end the aim of the Baha’i is peace and goodwill - You are firm in what you believe, that does not mean that we can not live in Peace Harmony and Good will to Each Other.

That is how I would see the outcome of any discussion re God.

If we have not achieved that, then we have not achieved what is of God.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

I am happy to live in peace and harmony with everyone, Tony, regardless of their beliefs. But the purpose of this thread is not to have a group hug, but to specifically focus on the Person of Jesus Christ.

You can believe whatever you desire, Tony. But please do not come here and pretend to teach us the truth of Christianity. What you believe about Christ is not even close to Christianity and our Church has already judged these beliefs as heresy long ago. They are nothing new. We cannot rightly call you heretics for you have never been Christian. But you have, nevertheless, adopted heretical beliefs as your own.

 

[tonyfish58]

But please do not come here and pretend to teach us the truth of Christianity.

Dear SteveVH - I have absolutely no ability to “teach” any of Gods Servants. If any one thinks they have this ability, then also this is not of God.

All ability is of God, we all partake of this to a preordained measure by the use of our own God Given free will.

This is not of me.

God Bless all in their search for truth.

God Bless you and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Creeds don’t make an interpretation, people do. What was written in the creeds came from the Apostles, those men who walked, talked, lived and were taught by Jesus Christ. They are far from incorrect. They express the faith revealed to them by Christ.

Sufficient evidence? Sufficient for whom? One cannot be eternal and at the same time be created. That is an objective, self-evident truth. If one was created there was a time when that one did not exist. “Eternal” means that one has always existed and will always exist; no beginning and no end. So your so-called “evidence” is no evidence at all to one who has some semblance of a rational mind.

Your requirement that the exact word “uncreated” must be used only reveals that you have very limited powers of deduction. Either that or you have already discounted any answer that may be given because your true purpose here is only to promote your agenda. The word eternal, by its very definition, means “uncreated”. Please stop playing games.

Hi Steve, it is clear you have misunderstood the meaning and implications of “emanation”

When creation emanates with something it is existing for the duration of the thing it emanates from.

The sun creates the sun ray. They both exist for EXACTLY the same period of time.

The Creator creates and, as an eternally unchanging Entity must ALWAYS have a creation, therefore creation and its Creator exist eternally, yet the Creator is uncreated, and the creation is created, yet both eternally existing.

It’s simple deduction and rational philosophy

.

 

[tonyfish58]

Hi Steve, it is clear you have misunderstood the meaning and implications of “emanation”

When creation emanates with something it is existing for the duration of the thing it emanates from.

The sun creates the sun ray. They both exist for EXACTLY the same period of time.

The Creator creates and, as an eternally unchanging Entity must ALWAYS have a creation, therefore creation and its Creator exist eternally.

It’s simple deduction and rational philosophy

.

Servant - I came across this yesterday in reading The Revelation of Baha’u’llah (Volume 4) by Abid Taherzadeh, where he puts together many of the writings on this subject.

Quite fascinating really!

God bless you Servant - Love Always dear Friend - Regards Tony

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, it is clear you have misunderstood the meaning and implications of “emanation”

When creation emanates with something it is existing for the duration of the thing it emanates from.

The sun creates the sun ray. They both exist for EXACTLY the same period of time.

The Creator creates and, as an eternally unchanging Entity must ALWAYS have a creation, therefore creation and its Creator exist eternally, yet the Creator is uncreated, and the creation is created, yet both eternally existing.

It’s simple deduction and rational philosophy

All of creation begins at a moment in time. There was a time when it did not exist, and then a time when it did exist. Only God is eternal; the prime Mover of all things; the Uncaused Cause. Simple observation of the world around us reveals that all things that exist were caused to exist by something else. Nothing that exists, exists of its own power except for God. Therefore, creation cannot, by its very definition, be eternal. Your “simple deduction and rational philosophy” are flawed.

The title “Creator” indicates what God does, not who he is. There is no reason that God “must” create anything. He is whole and entire in and of Himself. His essence is Love; the Love between the Father and the Son which is the Holy Spirit. We are not Baptized in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer and the Sanctifier. We are Baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Father is eternally the Father, the Son is eternally the Son and the Holy Spirit, eternally the Holy Spirit. No beginning and no end.