Belly Dancing at Church

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bigjoelex

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I am attempting to convince an Eastern Rite parish NOT to allow belly dancing since I consider it enticing or seductive and could lead a youngster into sin. However, others say it is “part of our culture.”

Does anyone have information on the roots of belly dancing in mid eastern culture? I wonder of the possibility that it may have been used as a means for the prostitution culture? Nevertheless, would our Blessed Mother be pleased as part of the audience, and in the same building that Her Son is Present in the Blessed Sacrament to be a part of this “entertainment?”
In Christ,
–BigJoeLex:thumbsup:
 
Sorry…I just posted the “Belly Dancing at Church” Thread but I failed to mention that the belly dancing is planned to be done at a FESTIVAL in the hall BELOW THE CHURCH. It is NOT to be done in the Church proper. Sorry about the confusion. I should have been more careful. My very first posting and I crashed!! Sorry and Thank you. :confused:
–BigJoeLex
 
bigjoelex said:
Sorry…I just posted the “Belly Dancing at Church” Thread but I failed to mention that the belly dancing is planned to be done at a FESTIVAL in the hall BELOW THE CHURCH. It is NOT to be done in the Church proper. Sorry about the confusion. I should have been more careful. My very first posting and I crashed!! Sorry and Thank you. :confused:
–BigJoeLex
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Would the Blessed Mother be pleased?
Well, let me put it this way. I really can’t picture Mary applauding and waving a tamborine. So no, I don’t think so.
 
I have gathered that it originated as a form of sympathetic magic bystanding women did as an expectant mother went into labor.

I realize this doesn’t especially recommend it, either.
 
bigjoelex said:
I am attempting to convince an Eastern Rite parish NOT to allow belly dancing since I consider it enticing or seductive and could lead a youngster into sin. However, others say it is “part of our culture.”

Does anyone have information on the roots of belly dancing in mid eastern culture? I wonder of the possibility that it may have been used as a means for the prostitution culture? Nevertheless, would our Blessed Mother be pleased as part of the audience, and in the same building that Her Son is Present in the Blessed Sacrament to be a part of this “entertainment?”
In Christ,
–BigJoeLex:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
Traditional forms of “belly” dancing are NOT what you see in Hollywood movies and TV programs.

It depends on what “form” of “belly” dancing they intend on doing.
 
We’ve never had belly dancing at any of our festivals, at least that I know of. (Chaldean church)

Though, our priest has said that he is invited to many wedding receptions, communion parties, etc. If they have belly dancing he leaves. The only part he stays for is to bless the dinner.

The “Dance of the East” is a part of middle eastern culture, however, it’s not a part of the church. It should be kept separate.
 
BigJoeLex,

Since you refer to it as an Eastern Rite parish I take it you are not Eastern Catholic. It is part of their culture, it has nothing to do with prostitution, and as another poster mentioned authentic belly dancing, as will take place at the Festival, is not what you see on TV. So my advice is mind your own business. Eastern Catholic don’t take kindly being told what to do by Latin Catholics, too much bad history there. If you can’t control yourself, don’t watch it. Since I am quite certain the Theotokos danced the dances of her culture I am sure she is pleased by the cultural expressions of Middle Eastern Christians.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Then Miriam, the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and dancing. 21 And Miriam sang to them: “Sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.”
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Exodus 15:20-21
 
Yeah but there is a difference between dancing, and belly dancing. I do not really know much on the topic, but I imagine there is perfectly acceptable folk dancing that does not offend chastity. We have lebenese dancing at the lebenese festivals in Roanoke but to my knowledge that is not belly dancing and it does not appear sexually enticing or seductive. I guess I really don’t know what exactly real belly dancing is as opposed to hollywood belly dancing shrugs. It being part of their culture though doesn’t really sound like a good arguement for it. We (as americans I mean) have plenty of seductive elements of american culture but that doesn’t mean they should be glorified in church sponsored festivals.
 
I think the belly dancers should be previewed before being allowed to perform.Our culture has sexualized belly dancing and so the attendants would also view it as sexual. Good luck with this issue!
 
I am not saying right or wrong here, but Cathflower b rings up a good point. Our culture has sexualized most things and I think it very likely there would be some who might be scadalised by belly dancing at a Church Festival simply because they would already have the impression in their minds of belly dancing being a form of sexual enticement. On the other hand, if most of the people attending the festival are of the culture that would understand belly dancing as a cultural expression should they be denied this aspect of their cultural expression just some people who don`t understand might take offense?🤷
 
Formosus said:
Yeah but there is a difference between dancing, and belly dancing. I do not really know much on the topic, but I imagine there is perfectly acceptable folk dancing that does not offend chastity. We have lebenese dancing at the lebenese festivals in Roanoke but to my knowledge that is not belly dancing and it does not appear sexually enticing or seductive. I guess I really don’t know what exactly real belly dancing is as opposed to hollywood belly dancing shrugs.
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I have studied Middle Eastern dance also called danse orientale or bellydance by some. Much of what is shown on TV or performed by Americans who have not studied with good instructors is Hollywood junk. Lebanese dancing is part of this larger style of oriental dance as is the Greek, Saudi, Egyptian, Turkish etc. There is a bad rep in some cultures because like actresses of centuries past, this was not performed by upper class women and in some countries there were links to prostitution with the more seductive styles.

My focus has been on Egyptian dance which includes many beautiful dances with deep historical roots. It is not all about shaking body parts or showing skin. My studio has 2 troupes that perform frequently at church festivals. We performed at my parish on multiple occasions for our carnival.

We are always covered from neck to feet and with long sleeves at churches. One of our troupe only performs traditional “country” style dances which are nothing like the cabaret style which is normally performed in nightclubs with sequined and fringed dresses. In fact, we wear more clothes when performing the traditional dances than most Americans have worn in their lifetime unless they are a nun in a full habit.

The bra/belt/skirt costume that Americans have come to associate with this type of dancing is a Hollywood invention that only recently made its way East. Normally, the cabaret dancers in the East wear what we would think of as an long evening dress with slits to allow leg movement and possibly some sheer cut outs to show the sides of the waist. Americans may show up in anything depending on how well they are trained. However, a church should make it clear that they don’t want a cabaret performance.

Their are some cute cane dances, sword dances, kaleegi (Saudi area), Ghawazee dances, etc that are perfectly appropriate for all ages to view. They are not “seductive” at all. Most people would call them “folk” dances although they are usually grouped under the broad category of “bellydance” by Americans. Ask if dancers will wear beledi dresses, assuit (ah-soot) or the Saudi style dresses which are the ankle length, long sleeve dresses usually worn over long pants and some type of bodysuit.

Anyone who is going to have entertainment of any kind at their church needs to do some research and set some clear boundaries. Check out the group/performer ahead of time and ensure that they know what the boundaries are for movements, music, lyrics, costumes beforehand.

Before I took over the entertainment, my parish had a bad experience by inviting a commercial radio station to do a live broadcast. They played highly inappropriate music and had foul language blaring. Now we only have the Catholic station or the local Christian station come out.
 
Thank you JC, I am quite ignorant on the subject of middle eastern (or really any sort of ) folk dance. If the sort of dance is liek what you described, then I see no problem with this at a church sponsored festival and I would actually encourage people to have these events to keep them tied to their heritage. Similar to how an irish parish might have a step dancing group.
 
Our young people do wonderful ethenic dancing at our church festival. It is always very respectful and all those gathered are delighted. Our young adults and some older teens use to do the ‘belly dancing,’ it was done with great taste and showed the talents of the young people. Now the problem came in some years ago when a church hired some ‘belly dancers’ well these dancers were not a good no great example of the ethenic dancing. For that reason it was banned from the church festivals by the bishop. What this bishop allows, or what the church mentioned does beyond what is allowed, I don’t know. If they have dancers that are out of agreement with what the bishop has allowed then they are out of line and should not have it. Our young people - starting at very young ages such as first and second grade - work very hard on their dances for months. They are just delightful. Last year the older teens and young adults dedicated a wonderful dance to their young friend killed at VT. They did a job that anyone parent anywhere would be proud of. So everything must be done in propiety according to the standards set down by the diocese, then it will truly be an example of the beautiful talents and gifts of dance developed in that culture. Fr. Deacon Lance is right, if this is not your church and you are not involved in it, you do not understand the culture of the people, then it really isn’t your place. I pray that each church uses their talents to the glory of God. If you have never tried to do what appears to be a simple dep-ka(sp) you, then you have a supprise coming, they take a lot of work and rythum. To a proper ‘belly dance’ it takes years of dancing to make it function properly. Truly a gift.
 
Thank you, Fr. Deacon Lance and JCServant. My very devout and pious ex wife studied danse orientale with a woman who lived with and learned authentic forms from tribes in North Africa, the Middle East, and other locations. In full regalia one could see most of this woman’s face (when it was unveiled,) and most of her hands from the wrist to fingertips. Her costume of thick black cotton mesh inlaid with beaten silver weighed about eighty pounds. Her “orientation” if you will, to the dance was that of one performing a sacred ceremony. In fact, many of the dances I witnessed were done traditionally by women for women. I found that they were nothing less than inspirations as examples of a way that folks care for and love on another. She continually railed against the “dispicable Las Vegas high heels and glass beads” school of cabaret dancing. I learned much of respect for women and their meliue from my association with this troup and my wife’s participation in it.

I think it is important that above all else, we need to deal in the currency of Love and Understanding. Having grown up a devout Catholic, and having been very well versed in its theology, I finally had to conclude that Goodness trumps religious affiliation. Ask me if I saw any perversions and travesties among the preaching clegy of my association, and I will speak of that as easily as the love, understanding and guidance I received from many of the priests, bothers, and nuns who were influential in my life. Dogma is of the mind; Love is of the heart and is the true evidence of God, as far as I can tell. And PLEASE, read at least the introduction of Gina Ceriminara’s profound book on religious sanity.
 
Thanks to all responding for/against the belly dancing issue. With all due respect my response to those are as follows:

Firstly: Although I am not an Eastern Rite Catholic, I have been a faithful volunteer at the parish, including for the upcoming festival, which allows for me to at least express my opinion.

Secondly: Actual parishioners DO AGREE WITH ME, in that the belly dancing IS INDEED “what you see on TV.” I have seen it previously, and the dance has a seductive tone to it. Just because an element is proclaimed “part of their culture” does not qualify it as being wholesome.

Thirdly: One respondant flippantly remarked inferring that I cannot control myself indicating to me that maybe I was not clear. I was merely trying to convey that I am more concerned about others’ souls; When one mixes a festival, beer, and viewing this type dance, one’s eyes and thoughts can be diverted toward darkness. Thoughts can be destructive to the soul (Mt. 5:27–Jesus) All this being done on church property is giving an unclear witness to the community. Interestingly, the “control” remark may be an admission that there indeed could be something immodest. In other words, if I cannot control myself, then there must be something about the dance that could be construed to be immodest, otherwise why make such a comment?

Fourthly: At the risk of being labled unqualified, judgemental, and prudish, I refuse to mind my own business regarding modesty issues. In our American culture, we need more preaching about modesty “in season and out of season.” If just one soul is protected from an occassion of sin, regardless of “their culture”, then my outspokeness is worth it!

I have written a letter to the parish pastor, who knows me well, and subquently I have spoken to him. It appears that he now wishes to substitute belly dancing with more enlightening folk dance, children debke, and pictures of the Middle Eastern country. It is my opinion that Our Lady now would be pleased to attend this festival. 👍
Respectfully,
Joe M.
 
Joe,

So why did you bother to ask the opinion of forum members? It is obvious your mind was made up before you ever posted.

Fr. Deacon Lance
 
Monkey Friend say no Belly Dancing at church! No hypocrite here. We monkeys dance at church, but by papal dispensation. 😃
 
If you are in a Melkite parish, the contact the Archbishop Cyril’s office for guidelines. They are in place in the diocese.
 
Dear BigJoeLex,

Thanks again, Fr. Deacon Lance.

Your satatement “I was merely trying to convey that I am more concerned about others’ souls;…” is of a form that is almost always a red flag for me. I look at all the societies of innocents who could have been drawn in by example who were, rather, destroyed by preaching and rules. Jesus was our exemplar, and His example was Love. On the other hand, maybe you ought go in with a scourge during the event and cast them all out. Hmmmmm…
 
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