Ben Stein: Science Leads to Killing People

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Barbarian:
Um, no. In fact, as you learned earlier, Darwin said that all humans deserve life and freedom. And he attributed life to God. If you can show that Darwin asserted that some people were not equally chosen and wanted by God, now would be the time to show us, or to apologize for misrepresenting Darwin.
Where did Darwin ever use the word God? He used the word 'Creator: once, and quite clever it was of him to do so, for it allowed his writings to appear to be Christian to some while the totally agnostic content of his writings was more than appealing to men who were atheists.
That would be inconsistent with his observation that he was kidded about being an orthodox Anglican on the Beagle. And since the Pope refers to God as the Creator, it seems that you’re letting your imagination lead you astray again.

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin - The Origin of Species


Barbarian observes:
Turn out you misrepresented him once again.

So when Pope Benedict says “Creator”, rather than “divine Creator”, you think he supports the Nazis? C’mon, Mary. Be honest with yourself, at least.

Barbarian observes:
Since Darwin wrote that God created life, and since all scientists agree that science cannot preclude God, .
He didn’t write that. Darwin never wrote God created life.
Sure did. You aren’t willing to accept God as the Creator, maybe?
And since when do ALL scientists say that science cannot preclude God?
Since Bacon, at least.
You, yourself say science has no place in talking about God.
Right. But scientists can talk about God. They just can’t use science for that purpose.
Human beings were just highly evolved animals to Darwin.
Nope. Darwin asserted that humans, unlike other animals, were entitled to life and liberty.
Animals can develop morality equal to men?
If they had our mental facilities. Why do you think God gave them to us? You seem to now accept that Hitler’s program was taken from Luther, not Darwin, and that Darwin and his followers objected to the thinking behind classical eugenics and the Holocaust.

Why would you want to defend those guys? Why would you assail Darwin for expressing a belief in a Creator, or for arguing that we must help the weak among us?

I do not understand why you think like that.
 
I believe the Pope is saying some forms of evolution are compatible with the Catholic faith but I dont think he means the agnostic form Darwin expresses in his 'Descent of Man".
It is neither theistic nor agnostic, any more than chemistry or physics can be theistic or agnostic.

And as you know, England had a state religion, so it’s not surprising that Darwin found that normal.

And this is a pretty good description of Kant’s ideas and the Catholic/Protestant divide:

**Kant is to conservative evangelicalism (Reformed, Baptist and Lutheran) what Aristotle is to Tridentine Catholicism. We equate Kantian and/or positivist philosophy with truth as instinctively, deeply, and foundationally as the scholastics equated Aristotle’s metaphysics with reality. Allow me to explain: I was talking to a former Catholic friend of mine who got quite a bit of theological education before he left, and he said that it’s not that Catholics are consciously Aristotelean in the whole substance/accidents thing, it’s that it is to them the only intuitive and natural way to explain reality. Saying something clearly Not-Aristotle doesn’t ring as Not-Aristotle in their ears, it sounds simply Obvioustly-Not-True, and you’re undermining our whole ability to speak intelligibly about the real world. It’s not seen as Aristotle vs Competing Metaphysical Systems, it’s The Way Things Are vs Incoherent babbling.

We’re the same way with Kant. In the thoroughly modernist mind, if you take issue with Kantian (and later ueber-Kantian) definitions of truth and fiction, his epistemology, his entire approach to language, etc, you’re not contradicting Kant per se. You are simply speaking nonsense at best and outright lies at worst, and you’re undermining our whole ability to make intelligible statements about truth. And true, certain dogmatic statements become nonsensical if you reject their Kantian (or positivist) foundations as much as transubstantiation becomes nonsense if you reject Aristotle. It’s not understood as Kantianism vs Competing Epistemological Systems, it’s Believing in Objective Truth vs Total Relativism–that’s how deeply ingrained this is.**
metalutheran.blogspot.com/2005/08/philosophy.html
 
Barbarian:
Um, no. In fact, as you learned earlier, Darwin said that all humans deserve life and freedom. And he attributed life to God. If you can show that Darwin asserted that some people were not equally chosen and wanted by God, now would be the time to show us, or to apologize for misrepresenting Darwin.
Mary:
Excuse me, you never provided any quotes attributing life to God.And please don’t give the “Creator” quote again because it is unclear in light of the OTHEr quotes which show he rejected religion. What you say doesn’t make sense. Go back and rad the quotes from Darwin about hjis rejection of the bible and Chrisitan faith, how he saw it all as myth.

BARBARIAN:
That would be inconsistent with his observation that he was kidded about being an orthodox Anglican on the Beagle. And since the Pope refers to God as the Creator, it seems that you’re letting your imagination lead you astray again.
Mary:
Yeah, and that was in the early years, before he wrote Origins of Species and other works…before he lost his faith.
I know who the Pope means, but Darwin is another story.
To remind you: “But I had gradually come by this time (i.e. 1836 to 1839) to see the Old Testament, from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rain-bow as a sign, &c., &c., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian…
…Thus disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine…”
Charles Darwin
nttp://www.age-of-the-sage.org/philo…in_quotes.html
He was an agnostic.
Barbarian observes:
Since Darwin wrote that God created life, and since all scientists agree that science cannot preclude God, .

HE DIDNIT WRIET ABOUT GOID CREATING LIFE!!!
(Barbarian said something about me misrepresenting Darwin here)
Sure did. You aren’t willing to accept God as the Creator, maybe?

You are ridiculous. I know Pope Benedict is referring to God, the Trinitarian God, but Darwin was not. I know that because he says he lost his faith. Are you incapable of logical thought?

Barbarian said this about animals evolving to have same loral conscience as people, something Darwin thought was possible:

**If they had our mental facilities. Why do you think God gave them to us? **

To be our companions yes and to serve human needs in different ways, but they were not meant to be equal to humans. If you think that then I think you are way out in left field somewhere…
Human being were given stewardship over the animals and nature. Adam named all the animals but none of them appeared suitable tyo him as a mate because he knew that he was different from them…Catholic teaching is that humans always had souls and were different from animals.There is no logic to saying animals are going to evolve too have reflective thought and conscience…they have instincts.

Barbarian:
Why would you want to defend those guys? Why would you assail Darwin for expressing a belief in a Creator, or for arguing that we must help the weak among us?

Give me a quote from Darwin that shopws he believes God, the Trinitarian God is the Creator he is referring to. The fact is you can’t. Stop lying about that.

In Christ, MaryJohnZ
 
Excuse me, you never provided any quotes attributing life to God.And please don’t give the “Creator” quote again because it is unclear in light of the OTHEr quotes which show he rejected religion.
Later in life, he expressed doubts. But as you see, Darwin, in The Origin of Species, attributed the origin of life to God.

Barbarian observes:
That would be inconsistent with his observation that he was kidded about being an orthodox Anglican on the Beagle. And since the Pope refers to God as the Creator, it seems that you’re letting your imagination lead you astray again.
Yeah, and that was in the early years, before he wrote Origins of Species and other works…before he lost his faith.
As you see, we know he retained his faith after he wrote his book, because that particular phrase was added to a later edition.

I know who the Pope means, but Darwin is another story.
To remind you: "But I had gradually come by this time (i.e. 1836 to 1839) to see the Old Testament, from its manifestly false history of the world, …Charles Darwin
nttp://www.age-of-the-sage.org/philo…in_quotes.html

I don’t remember for sure, but I’m almost certain that those dates weren’t his, but were faked. I’ll check in a moment…
He was an agnostic.
Late in life, he said he was “leaning toward agnosticism.”

Note: Yep. I was right. Your “quote” has been faked. I suspect you were merely the patsy for some other creationist who faked that part.

Barbarian observes:
Since Darwin wrote that God created life, and since all scientists agree that science cannot preclude God, .
HE DIDNIT WRIET ABOUT GOID CREATING LIFE!!!
He certainly did. Would you like to see it again?
You are ridiculous. I know Pope Benedict is referring to God, the Trinitarian God, but Darwin was not. I know that because he says he lost his faith. Are you incapable of logical thought?
As you see, Darwin was sufficiently orthodox in his Anglican beliefs to be the butt of jokes when he was on the Beagle, and he wrote his book, including his assertion of God’s creation of life later.
Catholic teaching is that humans always had souls and were different from animals.
So, if God gave them what he gave us…? Darwin agrees with the Church one more time.

Barbarian:
Why would you want to defend those guys? Why would you assail Darwin for expressing a belief in a Creator, or for arguing that we must help the weak among us?
Give me a quote from Darwin that shopws he believes God,
He attributes the origin of life to God. Last sentence of The Origin of Species.
The fact is you can’t. Stop lying about that.
In Christ, MaryJohnZ
If you were in Christ, Mary, you wouldn’t be making false accusations.
 
Barbarian…

Was Darwin a Christian? Did he believe in God? Did he recant evolutionism when he died? - ChristianAnswers.Net

Yes, he did have some faith when he wrote the Origins of Species, which is where your quote comes from but by the time he wrote Descent of Man he had lost it. Therefore it is not likely he saw God as having any part in the creation of the human person which is our main concern in this argument. It means that he saw the human person as a highly evolved animal. Nothing you have given has persuaded any other view.

Another site:

It has long been claimed by some Christians that Charles Darwin, who helped lay the intellectual foundations of secular humanism, reembraced Chris tianity as he neared death. A central figure in this tale is a Lady Hope, who supposedly visited Darwin in the months before he died. What is the basis for the Lady Hope story; and what do Darwin’s own writings reveal about his religious beliefs?

Alas, Darwin’s return to the fold seems an apochryphal tale. W.H. Rusch, Sr., and J.W. Klotz, well-known scientific creationists, have prepared a 38page historical study of the question – quoting at length from Darwin himself. They conclude about Darwin:

“He had made the human mind his authority, and it led him from orthodoxy to theism to agnosticism. Indeed it appears he might well be characterized as an atheist, a doubter of the very existence of God. His caution, however, and his recognition of the impossibility from a scientific standpoint of proving a negative led him to characterize himself as an agnostic which he says he is content to remain.”
(Rusch, Wilbert H., Sr., and Klotz, John W.; “Did Charles Darwin Become a Christian?” Emmett L. Williams, ed., Norcross, 1988.)
science-frontiers.com/sf057/sf057g18.htm

Do you see that Barbarian? They say the same thing. I could find to other sites. This is common knowledge. You are lying if you pose Darwin as a Christian.
 
Since everything I found on the internet about Immanuel Kant was extremely hard to read and decipher I had almost given up on devling into him at all. But I did find one PDF document that helped me understand why Kant is important to look at in rterms of understanding Darwin as a secular humanist.

It seems Kant was the philosopher who separated sciecne from religion saying only observable phenomena could be known with certainty. Anything about a spiritual real, God, heaven, angels, etc was unknowable with certainty…in other words, God cannot reveal Himself to Man with certainty.

His writings based morality on human reason alone. The individual conscience is the sole arbitrar of ‘right and wrong’ and the moral person is the one who acts according to rational thought to the best of their ability.

I am sure i am not expressing his complex philosophical view
perfectly but that is what i get from what I saw.

"Kant declared that man acts morally when his will is controlled
by reason. This happens because man has a sense of duty, or what Kant called “the categorical imperative.” Therefore man and his sense of duty must be the starting point for all religion. Man does what is right because of what he is within himself, not because of anything that happens to him through some outside force. The categorical imperative of Kant was later to become the “divine spark” of the liberal theologian. These theologians would join Kant in seeing man as sufficient unto himself…

But Kant allowed for certain “Postulates” to complete his philosophical system. A Postulate is something required, a self-evident truth that doesn’t demand proof. Kant declared that God, the soul, and immortal life are necessary as rewards for those who obey the dictates of their reasoning powers, or the categorical imperative. They exist because the system could not
be complete without them. What are they? According to Immanuel
Kant, no one can know because they are in the world of the
Nöumena. There is no room in Kant’s system for a God whose love draws men to Himself. Man does not need a Saviour because he has within himself the power to do what is right.
Man draws himself toward God when man does that which he knows within himself is right.

But the Scripture says, in the words of Jesus Christ, And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me (Jn 12:32; see also 1 Pet 2:21-25).Man then, according to Kant, is supreme. God, whatever that is, is out there somewhere and of no real consequence in the everyday world of the Phenomena. To Kant, God is recognized only because of man’s moral need for Him to exist. Sometimes it sounds as if Kant is saying that God exists simply because man has decided that he does. It was Kant’s thinking, especially in the area of a two-part system, that helped to lay the philosophical framework for both higher Biblical criticism and modern theology. After all this blasphemy, one would think things could not get any worse. Kant, however, did see certain things as right or wrong.He saw certain principles as absolutes which were unalterable. But into the halls of European higher learning was to come a man whose philosophy would bring even greater havoc into human thought than Kant’s deifying of human reason. This new philosophy would lead to “There is no room in Kant’s system for a God whose love draws men to
Himself.” (Hagel)
febc.edu.sg/assets/pdfs/febc_press/Will%20Our%20Sons%20Defend%20the%20Faith.pdf

Human secularism…and yes this is from a Christian PDF, but it was the best web site I could find for distilling what Kant said in lay man’s terms.

Remember Kant was quoted by darwin as a colleague and hero.

In Chrsit, maryJohnZ
 
Here I found a Catholic site that discusses the different modern philosophers and the Catholic view of the human person. Since this is at the heart of why I find Darwin’s idea of evoltution to be
incompatible with the Catholic view. I am posting the site and a brief quote. I feel since Darwin took away from the full dignity of the person by saying the human is just a highly evolved animal
essentially, that is what allowed for soical Darwinists and eugenicists to go down that road of the use of public policies that
encourage programs of sterilization, artificial birth control, euthanasia, and in the extreme case of the Nazis—mass genocide. That is where I feel science fails and religion needs to be partnered with science in some way inorder to draw the limits or provided the necessary moral guidelines so that the human person, or any aspect of God’s creation, isn’t trampled upon.

Now Barbarian, if you can give a constructive analysis of how that can be accomplished I would gladly hear it. Especially since we live in a world that has become increasingly secularized and in which the voice of ‘religion’ has been essentially regulated to houses of worship or our own houses, alone—how do you create a balance. The Pope has said religious people have a right to speak out on these issues as much as anyone, yet this is what I have complained about. I don’t hear scientists speaking out to protect life. This is why Ben Stein has a case to make. Is it because Kant’s influence has totally relugated science to only facts, and yet even the way those facts are presented provides values…so it seems to me that it really becomes impossible to totally separate values from the equation.

If science is dominated by agnostics and atheists who have no sense of the worth of a human person does it then become a threat to human life in general? Are we going down that road and can we stop something even worse from the genocides of WWII occuring? Is not the fact that some 44 million babies being murdered over the past years since Roe V Wade, is that not a greater crime than what Hitler perpetrated? This discussion is not just about saving Darwin’s reputation, it is about waking up and
trying to have a sense that science can be principled enough to
say the human person should be cherished and protected…
You keep saying Darwin said that, but the fact is science has been based on Darwin for the past century, and look where we are.

So how do we do this? How does science say each life is precious?

Anyway, here is what the site said about Immanuel Kant:

"Kant’s idealism makes of man a rational soul trapped in a body whose senses are unreliable. While the spiritual faculties of intellect and will are capable of knowledge and appetition, the soul is hindered by the body. Held captive by this somatic incarceration, the mind watches (or produces) a film of something approximating the reality of the outside world. Kant advanced “the notion that the material world is a mental construction or at least that all we know of that world [are] the models that we impose on it.”[5] By contrast, in philosophia perennis, the external senses of the body are assimilated by the internal senses (whose organ is the brain), which then supply the data to the super-organic faculty of the intellect. This process of abstraction, which, in the epistemological sphere, clearly shows the unity and interdependence of body and soul, has no counterpart in the idealist model of criteriology. Treating the soul as if it were a Manichean aeon held captive by evil matter, the idealist system makes the body a useless and harmful appendage.

The havoc that such a notion can produce in the realms of Christology, sacramental theology, and moral theology are well attested by such anti-Incarnational heresies as Gnosticism, Albigensianism, and the charismaticism of the disciples of Joachim of Flora. In dogmatic theology, Kantian epistemology has given us Rahner’s dangerous novelty of the “anonymous Christian.”

brotherandre.stblogs.com/2008/03/01/modern-philosophical-anthropology-and-the-catholic-conception-of-man/

So let’s have a discussion on what a Catholic view of the human person is based on, and how that can/ or should be integrated into science…

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
I am not lying. everywhere I look on the internet the consistent consensus is that Charles Darwin was an agnostic, if not a complete atheists…
All that counts is what Darwin said. He was, as you learned, a theist when he wrote The Origin of Species. Late in life, he said he was “leaning toward agnosticism.”
When Darwin came to write up the notes from his scientific investigations he faced a choice. He could interpret what he had seen either as evidence for the Genesis account of supernatural creation,
Well, let’s look again…

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence from The Origin of Species

Guess he did.
Do you see that Barbarian? They say the same thing. I could find to other sites. This is common knowledge. You are lying if you pose Darwin as a Christian.
In fact, as Darwin himself admitted, he was sufficiently orthodox as an Anglican in his early life that he was kidded about it. He said, when an old man that he was leaning toward agnosticism.

That’s the truth. There’s no point in denying it.

At any rate, it has no relevance to the issue at hand. Darwin and his followers denounced classical eugenic ideas, and Hitler’s program.

Martin Luther was the person who first proposed the Final Solution, and Hitler and his henchmen freely gave Luther credit for it, and implemented those ideas.

And Stein’s blood libel is to denounce the people who opposed Hitler,and make excuses for the people who supported Him.
 
All that counts is what Darwin said. He was, as you learned, a theist when he wrote The Origin of Species
. Late in life, he said he was “leaning toward agnosticism.”

Leaning! What about the fact he totally disbelieved in miracles, bibale as a sacred book of revelation, and thought all religions wewre myths…sounds like agnosticism to me…

Well, let’s look again…

In fact, as Darwin himself admitted, he was sufficiently orthodox as an Anglican in his early life that he was kidded about it. He said, when an old man that he was leaning toward agnosticism.

That’s the truth. There’s no point in denying it.

He said he was a agnostic. So I agree, let’s go with what he said

At any rate, it has no relevance to the issue at hand. Darwin and his followers denounced classical eugenic ideas, and Hitler’s program.

Could not have denounced Hitler and his folowers. Darwin was dead by that time but the eugenics movment was going strong. That is the point you keep missing. He never denoinced eugenics…most people involved in that were relative, friends etc…
Stop twisting facts based on two sentences that are unclear.

Martin Luther was the person who first proposed the Final Solution, and Hitler and his henchmen freely gave Luther credit for it, and implemented those ideas.

Disagree…doesn’t match facts that Hitler said ti9me and again he was about racial purity and said he was a pagan…and tried in everyway to attack religion. Facts don’t add up to what you claim.
As I said before, are you cpably of logically drawing conclusions? Are you purposefully revising history?

And Stein’s blood libel is to denounce the people who opposed Hitler,and make excuses for the people who supported Him.

And Pope Benedict said about Darwinian ethics:

“This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer,” he wrote. "Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic."After John Paul died in April 2005, Benedict signaled a similar concern in his homily at the Mass in which he was formally installed as pope.

“We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution,” he said. “Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary.”

iht.com/articles/2006/09/…can.php?page=2

The meaning of the human person cannot be evaluated or explained by scientific evolution. Darwin, but reducing the soul of a person to pure cognitive processes, learned reponses brought about by social conditioning, failed to see into the true mystery of the human person who was created to “Know, love and serve God”.

That definition of a person is not just relegated to persons a few thousand years ago, it was meaningful from the very first moment a human being was created or appeared on earth. Catholic belief even goes so far as to say Adam had a sense of intimacy with God, walking with Him and conversing with Him. Sin
took away this intimacy and left human beings at a lower state.
That element cannot be explained by an evolutionary theory. Thus, when science is seen as separate and even above theological understanding of the human person, there can be the great mistake of dehumanizing the person. I believe this is what Ben Stein was saying when he made his statement.
“Science leads to killing”, and in the sense that if science is given the final say on who and what a person is, Ben Stein is probably right. Scientists like Dawkins and Singer prove that. The eugenics movement proves that. Abortion adn euthanasia prove that.
In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
And Pope Benedict said about Darwinian ethics:
You mean Darwin’s ethical ideas that letting the weak die was an “overwhelming evil?” Or that all men are entitled to life and liberty?

Let’s see…

America has traditionally shown herself generous in meeting immediate human needs, fostering development and offering relief to the victims of natural catastrophes. I am confident that this concern for the greater human family will continue to find expression in support for the patient efforts of international diplomacy to resolve conflicts and promote progress. In this way, coming generations will be able to live in a world where truth, freedom and justice can flourish – a world where the God-given dignity and rights of every man, woman and child are cherished, protected and effectively advanced.
-Pope Benedict XVI

Yep. He does approve of Darwin’s ethics.

Pope John Paul II, speaking of those who would take nature as a source of ethics:
[This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer," he wrote. "Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic."

Looks like he agrees with Darwin, too.
The meaning of the human person cannot be evaluated or explained by scientific evolution.
I’m pleased you have gotten that, if nothing else from our discussion. You might want to write Ben Stein and tell him.
Catholic belief even goes so far as to say Adam had a sense of intimacy with God, walking with Him and conversing with Him. Sin took away this intimacy and left human beings at a lower state.
That element cannot be explained by an evolutionary theory.
Again, I’m glad you understand this. It’s something scientists are constantly having to remind people. What nature is, is not a model for human behavior. Which is what Darwin was pointing out.

Stein, of course, pretended Darwin was promoting evolution as a guide to human behavior. This libel is almost as bad as the excuses he makes for the Nazis.

No wonder he is despised. Why would you continue to defend someone like that?**
 
You mean Darwin’s ethical ideas that letting the weak die was an “overwhelming evil?” Or that all men are entitled to life and liberty?

Let’s see…

America has traditionally shown herself generous in meeting immediate human needs, fostering development and offering relief to the victims of natural catastrophes. I am confident that this concern for the greater human family will continue to find expression in support for the patient efforts of international diplomacy to resolve conflicts and promote progress. In this way, coming generations will be able to live in a world where truth, freedom and justice can flourish – a world where the God-given dignity and rights of every man, woman and child are cherished, protected and effectively advanced.
-Pope Benedict XVI

Mary:
Pope Benedict was speaking of America, our country be cause we have tradtionally given to others countries when they are in trouble…but on the other hand we have a long way to go before evey person is treated equally. Our unborn children certainly are not. I don’t think this quote has anything to do with agreeing with Darwin or not agreeing with Darwin. It is about a different subject altogether.

You say Darwin thought all people are equal. Actually Darwin talked of ‘favored races’…

the title for Descent of Man is actually:“The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”

In it he recognizes all races are different saying:

"So what did Darwin say specifically about human biodiversity? In “The Descent of Man,” he wrote, “… the various races, when carefully compared and measured, differ much from each other – as in the texture of hair, the relative proportions of all parts of the body, the capacity of the lungs, the form and capacity of the skull, and even the convolutions of the brain. But it would be an endless task to specify the numerous points of difference. The races differ also in constitution, in acclimatization and in liability to certain diseases. Their mental characteristics are likewise very distinct; chiefly as it would appear in their emotions, but partly in their intellectual faculties. Everyone who has had the opportunity of comparison must have been struck by the contrast between the taciturn, even morose aborigines of South America and the light-hearted, talkative negroes” Charles Darwin…
isteve.com/Darwin-EnemiesonLeft.htm

Mary:
not equal at all…Darwin is very big on defining differences because it is the differences that point out who will beter adapt un der different situations.

"The true nature of Darwinism is not merely an academic question. For we are moving, with alarming rapidity, from the Age of Darwin the Scientist to the Age of Galton the Inventor. Sir Francis Galton was Darwin’s even more ingenious half-cousin. (Their common grandparent was, not surprisingly, the brilliant Erasmus Darwin.) While Darwin was the hedgehog with one great idea, selection, Galton was the fox with innumerable notions large and small. Galton has as much claim as anybody to being the father of statistics, the dog whistle, fingerprinting, the systematic study of human variation, and the best way to cut a cake so it won’t go stale. Darwin, however, inspired Galton to devise one enormous idea glittering with promise and ominous with danger: eugenics. That’s the attempt to create a better human race by augmenting the slow and uncertain processes of natural and sexual selection with artificial selection.

Humans have always lusted for favoured genes for their future children. (Trust me on this one, because I know – I was turned down for a lot of dates.) Today, however, researchers are learning how to turbocharge evolution in laboratories all over the world."

isteve.com/Darwin-EnemiesonLeft.htm

barbarian misquotes:
Pope John Paul II, speaking of those who would take nature as a source of ethics:
[This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer," he wrote. "Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic."
Mary:
Pope Benedict said this** He obviously disagrees with DARWINIAN evolutionary ethics that lead to seeing everything in materialist terms… That is what Pope Benedict is saying. Stop twisting the quotes.

Barbarian:
I’m pleased you have gotten that, if nothing else from our discussion. You might want to write Ben Stein and tell him.
Mary:
Too bad you aren’t getting it right. I agree with ben Stein, scieintists like Galton have led to death through eugenics and mass genicide…and who knows what eles if we don’t say something about this.
BARBARIAN"
Again, I’m glad you understand this. It’s something scientists are constantly having to remind people. What nature is, is not a model for human behavior. Which is what Darwin was pointing out.
MARY:
But he corresponds human behaviour to animal behaviour contiually through out his writings. You are being misleading when you say or imply he did not.

CONTINUED NEXT POST WITH INFO ON GENETIC TECHNOLOGIES FROM gALTON INSITUTE;

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
Stein, of course, pretended Darwin was promoting evolution as a guide to human behavior. This libel is almost as bad as the excuses he makes for the Nazis.

No wonder he is despised. Why would you continue to defend someone like that?

That is not what Ben Stein said. he said scientists in the eugenicist movement were inspired by Darwin and laid the groundwork for others, like Galton and the eugenicists in the Galton Institute who believe technology can improve humanity by controlling genetics. This was part of what turned into the Nazi racist program of genicide. it contiues on today. One click turned up this article from the Galton Institue which shows the aims of modern day eugenics has not changed, but only has different methodologies. They are hoenst enough to say that Darwin is their forebearer in terms of ideology. They don’t dodge and hide the truth like you do barbarian:

“The first century or two of the new millennium will almost certainly be a golden age for eugenics. Through application of new genetic knowledge and reproductive technologies the Galtonian Revolution will come to fruition. This new revolution in the new millennium, which I call the Galtonian Revolution (Whitney, 1995; 1997a) will be more momentous for the future of mankind than was the Copernican Revolution or the Darwinian Revolution. For with the Galtonian Revolution, for the first time, the major changes will not be to ideas alone, but rather the major change will be to mankind itself.”

From a Introduction to
REPRODUCTION TECHNOLOGY FOR A NEW EUGENICS

Paper for The Galton Institute conference
“Man and Society in the New Millennium”
16 - 17 September 1999
at The Zoological Society of London
Regents Park, London NW1 4RY

Published as: Whitney, G. (1999). Reproduction technology for a new eugenics. The Mankind Quarterly, XL, #2, 179-192.

mary:
*If all people are equal why do we need technology to improve and make races better? Follow the dots…think Logically, the eugenics beast is still alive and it is still linked to Darwin va Galton.new methodologies, some new vocabulary, but similiar goals and ideas. it isn’t about loving each person as God created them, it is about becoming ‘like gods’ and controlling life.

Some of what they say they want to do:*
Galton Institute:
"Access to the egg, sperm, and early embryo facilitates a wide range of genetic manipulations. Many techniques already routine in animal research might find application in human eugenics. Knockouts are individuals in which specific genes have been rendered non-functional. Gene substitution techniques can insert functional genes to compensate for defective natural genes, or to enhance trait expression beyond the naturally occurring range. Transgenic procedures involve the insertion of functional genes, even ones from other species. In wide use for research, a recent experiment demonstrates the application of transgenic technology to primates: Monkeys are being developed that have bioluminescence from jellyfish (Lau, 1999). Personally, I have no interest in having my private parts glow in the dark; however, it would be interesting to be able to navigate like a homing pigeon.

Many additional and more sophisticated techniques are undoubtedly on the way; in June of 1999, at the meeting of the American Society of Gene Therapy, “chimeraplasty” was considered, by which single-base DNA mistakes can be corrected in cell cultures and experimental animals (Gura, 1999). It is only a matter of time until these techniques are perfected to a level permitting moral application to human problems. Many of the techniques mentioned earlier, such as nuclear substitution and genetic manipulations are not yet efficient enough to be unquestionably suitable in therapeutic and eugenic application for humans. But with the pace of research it is surely only a matter of time, and a short time at that.

Designer children is a label often disparagingly applied by critics in discussions of individual’s new abilities to make personal choices and eugenic decisions about their own children. Critics of eugenics blather about invented moral and ethical issues. But as bioethecist John Harris (1998) has said,

“The best I can do here is repeat a perhaps familiar thought, namely that although this is often taken to be a difficult question and indeed the idea of parents being able to choose such things very often causes outrage, I have found difficulty in seeing this question as problematic. It seems to me to come to this: either such traits as hair colour, eye colour, gender, and the like are important or they are not. If they are not important why not let people choose? And if they are important, can it be right to leave such important matters to chance? (Harris, 1998:29).”

( from same article, Galton Institute)
eugenics.net/papers/gw002.html

COLOR=“red”]Mary:
You change the source for quotes, you twist things. You know all about these researchers and their intent. You know it comes from eugenics and that it is an offspring of Darwinian ethics. You are the one who is kying about all this.


In Christ, Mary JohnZ
 
Stein, of course, pretended Darwin was promoting evolution as a guide to human behavior. This libel is almost as bad as the excuses he makes for the Nazis.

No wonder he is despised. Why would you continue to defend someone like that?
That is not what Ben Stein said.
Um, yes, that’s what he said. Let’s take a look…

Stein has publicly denounced the theory of evolution, which he and other intelligent design advocates term “Darwinism”, declaring it to be “a painful, bloody chapter in the history of ideologies”, “the most compelling argument yet for Imperialism”, and the inspiration for the Holocaust.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Stein

And there’s this one…

Stein was criticized by on the Anti-Defamation League’s for the use of the Holocaust to further an anti-evolution agenda.[25] Asked for a comment about this by Vancouver Sun writer Peter McKnight, Stein replied, "It’s none of their (very naught word) business."
(same source)

How dare Jews express an opinion on the Holocaust!
They are hoenst enough to say that Darwin is their forebearer in terms of ideology. They don’t dodge and hide the truth like you do barbarian:
As you learned, Darwin denounced the idea that people might let the weak die, and his followers debunked classical eugenics. That’s the truth, which you earlier admitted. Now it seems, you’ve changed the story again.
You change the source for quotes, you twist things.
C’mon, Mary. You’ve dodged and made excuses for Stein and the Nazis all the way through. And when you get caught, you complain that I’ve twisted things. It’s over. Your guy is slime. Even his own people are disgusted with him.
You know all about these researchers and their intent. You know it comes from eugenics and that it is an offspring of Darwinian ethics.
Darwin said that it was an overwhelming evil to even let the weak die. That’s Darwinian ethics. You made up the rest.
You are the one who is kying about all this.
You know better, Mary. Isn’t it time to just accept reality?
 
Pope Benedict was speaking of America, our country be cause we have tradtionally given to others countries when they are in trouble…but on the other hand we have a long way to go before evey person is treated equally. Our unborn children certainly are not.
So he agrees with Darwin that we must help the weak and the unfortunate. Why wouldn’t he?
You say Darwin thought all people are equal.
Actually, I didn’t. But he did, in the same sense that the Founders of the United States did. They didn’t mean that all humans were equal in terms of intelligence or ability or anything else. They meant (as Darwin did) that all humans are entitled to life and freedom.
the title for Descent of Man is actually:“The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”
Well, you were snockered a little on that one; “races” was the way people talked about kinds of animals in Darwin’s time. There is nothing at all about humans in the book.

Pope John Paul II, speaking of those who would take nature as a source of ethics:
This evolutionary ethic that inevitably takes as its key concept the model of selectivity, that is, the struggle for survival, the victory of the fittest, successful adaptation, has little comfort to offer," he wrote. “Even when people try to make it more attractive in various ways, it ultimately remains a bloodthirsty ethic.”
Pope Benedict said this He obviously disagrees with DARWINIAN evolutionary ethics that lead to seeing everything in materialist terms…
As you know, Mary, Darwin also pointed out that taking nature as a source of ethics is a bad idea. He and the Pope agree with that. Darwin’s ethics are not from nature.
That is what Pope Benedict is saying.
That’s what Darwin said, too. He didn’t think that survival of the fit was a good ethical concept. Remember, he called that an “overwhelming evil.”
Stop twisting the quotes.
I didn’t change anything. I just pointed out that the Pope and Darwin agree on this.
The meaning of the human person cannot be evaluated or explained by scientific evolution.
Barbarian observes:
I’m pleased you have gotten that, if nothing else from our discussion. You might want to write Ben Stein and tell him.
Too bad you aren’t getting it right.
As you know, Darwin’s point was exactly that.

Barbarian observes:
Again, I’m glad you understand this. It’s something scientists are constantly having to remind people. What nature is, is not a model for human behavior. Which is what Darwin was pointing out.
But he corresponds human behaviour to animal behaviour contiually through out his writings.
Yep. We have a lot of behaviors that are like other animals. But that doesn’t mean we have to simply give way to our basest instincts. That is what Darwin was telling you about taking care of the weak.

What is troubling, is that you are continuing to make excuses for those who thought the weak didn’t deserve to live. Why would you do that?
 
So barbarian, you made a statement in your last posts thaT IN The Descent of Man, otherwise titled the title for Descent of Man is actually:“The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”

doesn’t talk about human beings!!!

You made a statment that darwin is mainly taliing about animals!!!

Well, since Darwin considers the human being only a highly evolved animal, I would agree… Darwin is unable to talk abou the human person as having an identity other than an animal one.

here is what he says about this way of defining the human person:

“Some naturalists, from being deeply impressed with the mental and spiritual powers of man, have divided the whole organic world into three kingdoms, the Human, the Animal, and the Vegetable, thus giving to man a separate kingdom.* Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind, although immensely in degree. A difference in degree, however great, does not justify us in placing man in a distinct kingdom,…” Charles Darwin, Chapter 6
Descent of Man
infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/descent_of_man/chapter_06.html

Darwin talks about the different races of men, and we have already discussed that he was a racists in this area. In Descent of Man he talks about the mixing of different races and how it can have a negative affect:

“Independently of fertility, the characters presented by the
offspring from a cross have been thought to indicate whether or not
the parent-forms ought to be ranked as species or varieties; but after carefully studying the evidence, I have come to the conclusion that no general rules of this kind can be trusted. The ordinary result of a cross is the production of a blended or intermediate form; but in certain cases some of the offspring take closely after one parent-form, and some after the other. This is especially apt to occur when the parents differ in characters which first appeared as sudden variations or monstrosities.* I refer to this point, because Dr.Rohlfs informs me that he has frequently seen in Africa the offspring of negroes crossed with members of other races, either completely black or completely white, or rarely piebald. On the other hand, it is notorious that in America mulattoes commonly present an intermediate appearance.”

Charles Darwin, Descent of Man Chapter 7
infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/descent_of_man/chapter_07.html

This book is mainly about the human being, which Darwin classifies as an animal as you can see from his direct quote. 9above quote) That is my main point as well…since he classifies the human person as an ‘animal’ and nothing more than that,
*“the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind, although immensely in degree. A difference in degree, however great, does not justify us in placing man in a distinct kingdom,…” * Charles Darwin
then why not apply animal breeding concepts to the human gene pool as the eugenicists movement did and as Hitler did…

The link to Darwin becomes more and more clear as you read his work.

I also noted that he quoted from Haeckel, the German scientist who we discussed earlier, who made up drawings and from Huxley as in Thomas Huxley.

Darwin concludes that the human person is a product of struggle and sexual selecftion just like any other animal on the planet:

: In this chapter we have seen that as man at the present
day is liable, like every other animal, to multiform individual
differences or slight variations, so no doubt were the early
progenitors of man; the variations being formerly induced by the
same general causes, and governed by the same general and complex laws as at present. As all animals tend to multiply beyond their means of subsistence, so it must have been with the progenitors of man; and this would inevitably lead to a struggle for existence and to natural selection."

infidels.org/library/historical/charles_darwin/descent_of_man/chapter_02.html

There isn’t any room in his view for the intervention of God. There is not a shred of evidence in this view that the human person is gifted with a soul that has a Divine imprint and which is meant to serve as a Temply for God’s Holy Spirit. Darwin’s view of the human person is materialistc, atheistic, cold and calculating.
It is easy to see how the eugenics movement and Hitler came from his writings.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
So barbarian, you made a statement in your last posts thaT IN The Descent of Man, otherwise titled the title for Descent of Man is actually:“The Origin of Species By Means of Natural Selection or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”
No, you’ve confused the two books. The Origin of Species
doesn’t discuss human evolution at all. “Races” in that time, meant species of organisms.
You made a statment that darwin is mainly taliing about animals!!!
And plants. The Descent of Man came later, but of course, that title doesn’t use “races” since that meant something different then.
Well, since Darwin considers the human being only a highly evolved animal,
As you learned, Darwin considered humans an entirely different issue. For Darwin, man was not merely a highly evolved animal. That is why he said that humans deserve life and liberty, unlike animals.
I would agree… Darwin is unable to talk abou the human person as having an identity other than an animal one.
You know better than that, Mary. Everyone knows you know better. Why bother denying it?

Humans are not in a distinct kingdom. We are animals. Primates, to be more precise. But as Darwin says, science cannot evaluate all that we are:

"Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind, although immensely in degree."

So we are animals, but also something more, something that science can’t be classed by science.
Darwin talks about the different races of men, and we have already discussed that he was a racists in this area.
So was Abraham Lincoln, and almost every other person of European descent at the time. Darwin and Lincoln differed from most of their fellows by asserting that while blacks were not the equal of whites in many ways, they were equal in rights to life and liberty.

Of course Hitler and Luther had different ideas, which is perhaps why Stein was denouncing Darwin and making excuses for them.
That is my main point as well…since he classifies the human person as an ‘animal’ and nothing more than that,
Your own quote shows that is not true, since Darwin alludes to spiritual aspects of man which cannot be addresed by science.

**“Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind, although immensely in degree. A difference in degree, however great, does not justify us in placing man in a distinct kingdom,…” **Charles Darwin
then why not apply animal breeding concepts to the human gene pool as the eugenicists movement did and as Hitler did…
Because Darwin thought that man was more than a mere animal. And he thought that gave man rights that mere animals do not have.
The link to Darwin becomes more and more clear as you read his work.
I think you unwittingly demonstrated that. But it just destroyed your argument; Darwin considers man to be more than a mere animal, having spiritual gifts beyond the ken of science.
There isn’t any room in his view for the intervention of God.
The teaching of the Church says otherwise.
There is not a shred of evidence in this view that the human person is gifted with a soul
If you were right, Darwin would not have alluded to it.

There’s no point in making excuses for Hitler; he took Luther’s recommendations and put them into practice. And he denied Darwin’s idea of essential human rights, and a spiritual dimension to man.
 
No, you’ve confused the two books. The Origin of Species
doesn’t discuss human evolution at all. “Races” in that time, meant species of organisms.

And plants. The Descent of Man came later, but of course, that title doesn’t use “races” since that meant something different then.

As you learned, Darwin considered humans an entirely different issue. For Darwin, man was not merely a highly evolved animal. That is why he said that humans deserve life and liberty, unlike animals.

You know better than that, Mary. Everyone knows you know better. Why bother denying it?

Humans are not in a distinct kingdom. We are animals. Primates, to be more precise. But as Darwin says, science cannot evaluate all that we are:

**“Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: **but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind,****although immensely in degree.” Charles Darwin Chapter 4 Decsent of Man

So we are animals, but also something more, something that science can’t be classed by science.

But Darwin has classed it…he is saying we are the same in every aspect as animals, only that we have developed certain instincts to a very high degree…nothing other than that. Read his quote. He does not make a separate category for the human person. We are highly evolved apes…

That is not what our Catholic faith teaches us. That is my point The Darwinian ethic , which Pope Benedict charcterized as a bloody ethic of tooth and claw’ is what BenSte4in was referring to as at the heart of the eugenics movement during WWII and the Nazi regime.

“Eugenics (coined from the Greek for ‘well bred’) implied the antonym dysgenics (‘ill bred’). According to Galton, who was a cousin of Charles Darwin (1809-1883), civilization diminishes the rigor of natural selection or ‘survival of the fittest’ and preserves the unfit who otherwise would have perished. The leading biologist, Sir Julian Huxley (1887-1975) president of the British Eugenics Society 1959-62, held that ‘the elimination of natural selection is largely… rendered inoperative by medicine, charity, and the social services’. According to the philosopher, Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) speaking in 1930, ‘There can be no doubt that the civilization produced by the white races has this singular characteristic, that in proportion as men and women absorb it, they become sterile… At the present, the most intelligent sections of the Western nations are dying out’ (Lynn 2001, 21, 23).
Such views were widely held in the first half of the twentieth century on both sides of the Atlantic and of the political divide. The British Fabian Socialists Beatrice & Sidney Webb carried out research in the 1890s confirming the high fertility of the ‘improvident’: the ‘degenerate hordes … unfit for social life’. In the USA, Margaret Sanger (1883-1966) advocated birth control for eugenic reasons, and a British follower declared, ‘more children from the fit, less from the unfit – that is the chief issue of birth control’ (Lynn 2001, 33).
A distinction is often made between positive and negative eugenics. Negative eugenics describes the attempt to prevent the birth, growth and development of individuals with undesirable traits. According to Galton, ‘stern compulsion ought to be exerted to prevent the free propagation of the stock of those who are seriously afflicted by lunacy, feeble-mindedness, habitual criminality, and pauperism.’ (Lynn 2001, 12). In the twentieth century, the most notorious examples of this were the programs of compulsory sterilization seen in many countries such as the USA (60,000 sterilizations up to 1970: half mentally-retarded, half criminals and insane), Sweden (60,000 1934-76, or 1 per cent of the total population), Japan (16,500 women 1949-95) and Nazi Germany (300-400 sterilized up to 1939).”
1
eprints.lse.ac.uk/3079/1/Eugenics_(LSERO).pdf

So was Abraham Lincoln, and almost every other person of European descent at the time. Darwin and Lincoln differed from most of their fellows by asserting that while blacks were not the equal of whites in many ways, they were equal in rights to life and liberty.

So why was Darwin in the Descent of Man referring to studies that showed different races as having skulls that showed they had not advanced as much as other races. He clearly saw some groups of people as inferior. Look at what some of his predecessors were writing concerning ‘race’. In fact Christopher Meiners was a Germ Anthropologist who came up with the idea that the Germanic ‘race’ was superior:

German anthropologist Christoph Meiners devised a “binary racial scheme” of “two races” with the Caucasian whose racial purity was exemplified by the “venerated… ancient Germans” with some Europeans being impure “dirty whites” and “Mongolians” who consisted of everyone else.[4] He characterized Caucasians as having “lightness” and “beauty” with the “whitest, most blooming and most delicate skin”. On the other hand, he characterized Mongolians as being “weak in body and spirit, bad, and lacking virtue”[4]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_definitions_of_race

…"18th century anthropologist Christoph Meiners, who first defined the Caucasian race, posited a “binary racial scheme” of “two races” with the Caucasian whose racial purity was exemplified by the “venerated… ancient Germans” with some Europeans being impure “dirty whites” and “Mongolians” who consisted of everyone else.[7] Meiners did not include the Jews as Caucasians and ascribed them a “permanently degenerate nature”.[16] "

answers.com/topic/caucasian-race-1

Can you see where Darwin, and other got the idea of racial hierarchies? Can you see that Hitler was folowing these men’s lead thinking he was doing what was scientifically correct.

I am glad you admit that Darwin’s theory has limited the definition of the human being to nothing more than an evolved animal. he even specifically said there was nothing spiritual about the human being…that what we think of as being ‘spiritual’ is nothing more than evolved animal instincts.

The fact that Darwin and others reduced the human being to just being an animal had far reaching effects.

"Viewing humans and animals as equals might somehow
raise the ethical standards by which all species are treated.
However, the early twentieth century social Darwinists
used this idea to treat some humans in ways that previously
had been reserved for animals. Rather than elevating
the status of all species, they rejected belief in the inherent
dignity of all human life and justified the killing of innocent
humans believed to be of lower status than some animals.
The same agenda is apparent in the title of Singer’s
previously cited book, Unsanctifying Human Life. Rejection
of the idea that human life is somehow ‘set apart’ from
other species is found throughout Darwinian literature.
Just as earlier social Darwinists and Nazis advocated killing
off weak and unfit humans, Singer similarly justifies
infanticide and euthanasia, and claims that some animals
have a higher moral standing than certain humans.
3. Human gradation
Having eliminated any special status for humans, Singer
and those who hold similar views, must use some criteria
to grade humans lives. This, we saw with the social Darwinists
and Nazis, becomes arbitrary. Today, we see similar
decisions being made about human lives, especially
where ethical dilemmas abound at the beginning and
ending of life. One of the infertility experts attempting to
clone a human baby responded to concerns about adverse
effects in resulting babies by replying, “We can grade
embryos. We can do genetic screening. We can do quality
control” [62].
Some claim that such quality control is different when
applied to human embryos. However, when accepted for
some members of the human species, it can quickly
spread. ‘Quality control’ for humans was accepted at the
beginning of the twentieth century, and it is already
expanding again at the beginning of the twenty-first century.
Professor John Harris is a member of the British
Medical Association’s ethics committee and in 2004 he
declared:
“There is a very widespread and accepted practice of
infanticide in most countries…What do we really
think is different between newborns and late foetuses?
There is no obvious reason why one should think differently,
from an ethical point of view, about a foetus
when it’s outside the womb rather than when it’s
inside the womb” [63]. Harris used the same relativistic argument used by Haeckel and Hitler:

Darwin’s view of the human being is not compatible with Christian /Catholic beliefs about the human being and the effect of it is something that all of us should fight against.

Stop supporting these killers Barbarian.

In Christ, maryJohnZ
 
“Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind,although immensely in degree.” Charles Darwin Chapter 4 Decsent of Man

So we are animals, but also something more, something that science can’t be classed by science.
But Darwin has classed it…
Um, no. He pointed out that we are not like other animals, in the sense of spiritual powers, but we are like them in other ways.
That is not what our Catholic faith teaches us.
Yes, it is. We are different from other animals in having an immortal soul.
That is my point The Darwinian ethic
Darwin’s ethic:

Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of
hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our
nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation,
for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if
we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could
only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.


I hope you agree with him, Mary. If not, you are at odds with the teaching of the Church.
which Pope Benedict charcterized as a bloody ethic of tooth and claw’ is what BenSte4in was referring to as at the heart of the eugenics movement during WWII and the Nazi regime.
As you now realize, Pope Benedict was speaking of those who would try to make an ethic of nature. As you see, Darwin disagreed with that. As you also know, Darwin denounced eugenic thinking, and his followers showed it was scientifically insupportable.

And as you also learned, Hitler got his ideas from Martin Luther, who proposed about 90% of what became the Final Solution.

Barbarian on racism:
So was Abraham Lincoln, and almost every other person of European descent at the time. Darwin and Lincoln differed from most of their fellows by asserting that while blacks were not the equal of whites in many ways, they were equal in rights to life and liberty.
So why was Darwin in the Descent of Man referring to studies that showed different races as having skulls that showed they had not advanced as much as other races.
Because Darwin saw all humans as having the right to life and liberty, such things made no difference to him, as far as humanity was concerned.
I am glad you admit that Darwin’s theory has limited the definition of the human being to nothing more than an evolved animal.
C’mon Mary. Be honest. I showed you that he knew that humans were more than just an evolved animal. And since science can’t address the supernatural, there is no way for it to say humans are merely evolved animals.

Darwin’s view of the human being, as you see, was that even the least of them had rights, and that it would be evil to even let any of them die.
Darwin’s view of the human being is not compatible with Christian /Catholic beliefs about the human being
It’s alarming that you think so. We are told that we have a duty to help the unfortunate.
 
Barbarian said this is relationship to my statement that darwin’s ideas of the human person were incompatible with Catholic teaching:
It’s alarming that you think so. We are told that we have a duty to help the unfortunate.

I don’t have time for response right now. Going away for weekend.
I want to remind you I am the one arguing that each person’s life has a dignity and worth and infinite value. this comes along with a belief that each person is made in God;s image. Darwin saw the person as an evolved animal and was agnostic. he could not see the same worth in the human being.

Barbarian, if you really believed this ( every life is worthy of protection) you wouldn’t defend Planned Parenthood and birth control, which you have in past posts.

Later…
In Christ,
maryJonZ
 
Darwin’s ethic:
Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of
hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our
nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation,
for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if
we were intentionally to neglect the weak and helpless, it could
only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil.

Darwin’s view of the human being is not compatible with Christian /Catholic beliefs about the human being
Barbarian observes:
It’s alarming that you think so. We are told that we have a duty to help the unfortunate.
I don’t have time for response right now. Going away for weekend.
I want to remind you I am the one arguing that each person’s life has a dignity and worth and infinite value.
So why do you disagree when Darwin asserts this? You seem to be conflicted on that point, Mary.
Darwin saw the person as an evolved animal and was agnostic.
As you know, in his book, he attributed the origin of life to God, and in The Descent of Man alluded to man’s spiritual identity.

Later in life he said he was “leaning toward agnosticism”, but seems to never have completed the journey. The very quote you offered:

**“Spiritual powers cannot be compared or classed by the naturalist: but he may endeavour to shew, as I have done, that the mental faculties of man and the lower animals do not differ in kind,although immensely in degree.” **Charles Darwin Chapter 4 Decsent of Man

shows that Darwin did not regard man as merely an animal.
Barbarian, if you really believed this ( every life is worthy of protection) you wouldn’t defend Planned Parenthood and birth control, which you have in past posts.
Um, no, you just made that up. I have defended neither of them.
 
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