Ben Stein: Science Leads to Killing People

[buffalo]

This is a poor example. We call the sky “blue” because that is the name we have given to the color perceived by our brains. We perceive this color due to the atmospheric absorption and scattering of light waves. The “blue” wavelength is absorbed and scattered best by the atmosphere, thus we perceive this wavelength. I don’t know how the name “blue” came to be given. We could rename it “green”, but that doesn’t change the science behind the phenomenon.

Besides, I think you give us scientists too much credit. Most people think we’re a bunch of crackpots. Just read some of the threads about science and scientists on these boards.

You missed the point.

 

[SeekerJen]

You missed the point.

I don’t think I did. You’re attempting to make a point that scientists have all of this crazy influence on the population and that we can make everyone believe that there is no God. I’m countering that 1) we don’t have that much influence, 2) many of us have no interest in telling people what to believe because a) this is not our jurisdiction and b) many of us are religious ourselves, and 3) your example isn’t particularly well-chosen. It’s rather analogous to saying that an unseen, supernatural force named something other than God created the universe (but still a supernatural force), rather than saying that there is no God/supernatural force at all and that everything came together at random. A better example would have been “there is no sky”.

 

[jman507]

I don’t think I did. You’re attempting to make a point that scientists have all of this crazy influence on the population and that we can make everyone believe that there is no God. I’m countering that 1) we don’t have that much influence, 2) many of us have no interest in telling people what to believe because a) this is not our jurisdiction and b) many of us are religious ourselves, and 3) your example isn’t particularly well-chosen. It’s rather analogous to saying that an unseen, supernatural force named something other than God created the universe (but still a supernatural force), rather than saying that there is no God/supernatural force at all and that everything came together at random. A better example would have been “there is no sky”.

I would add that many people will selectively take what they want from science, and will run with it as they desire, even if that means they fundamentally change what the original idea actually allow to be said.

On a side note, when I went to Spanish class, the instructor told me it was “azul.”

 

[Eden]

The premise that Science leads to killing people is particularly disturbing to me now, as I’m right in the middle of the book in my signature, and the author illustrates how the foundations of modern science were almost entirely laid by Catholics, especially Catholic clergy. Science is not, in its essence, a contradiction to faith.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

True. They don’t have the right to insist that the government promote their values, however.

Indeed, they elect school boards to do that. However, school boards are obligated to obey the Constitution.

If they don’t allow you to opt your child out of the program, I’d say so. Schools have to allow those with religious objections, to opt out of anything they find objectionable.

It has been in all the districts I’ve been associated with.

I would say the education elite make it appear as if it is an even playing field but they hide what is being taught from parents by not allowing them in classrooms. They hide worksheets from parents that student work on in sex ed classes. If you ask to see the materials they bring you in and show you a table full of material but will not identify the exact material used in classroom, just say it is chosen from the material shown in the room. If you pick out something that is offensive, they right away disclaim it as not being used…yet there it is among what can be used.

The education people had a “parent education” meeting led by Planned Parenthood and it was attended by the head of curriculum. We had an opposing program with a pro-life doctor and no one from the school administration attended it…so not exactly hearing the other side equally.

All the facts out there tell us that STDs are at an epidemic level and yet the school system is using programs that only treat abstinence as ‘one of many choices’…and encourage students to
go to Planned Parenthood where they can obtain contraceptives without parental knowledge. In that sense the curriculum encourages a break between parents and children. Remember these are underage children…not adults.

And yes, I did opt my children out of portions of the programs but
many parents don’t recognize the harm these program do.

I would say the drug companies and Plaaned Parenthood should be considered as vendors, pushing their wares in our classrooms.
This is a personal area of education which the school really has no right to be involved in period.

It is so frustrating when men (and most school board members are men from my experience) fail to care enough about the young women in their charge to make sure the young men in our schools are taught not to manipulate them and use them. Certainly that is an area os self respect and respect for others that has been neglected.

The abstinence crowd is not treated equally. You are just giving me the same 'party line" i have heard over and over. In your mind you are being respectable and safe and maybe even ‘moral’
because you allow parents to remove kids if they want to…but be honest, the school programs are corrupting kids, not helping
them.

Ben Stein had it straight as an arrow in regards to the nature of Planned Parenthood. And if you are in any way supporting them and their programs with young people, then you should begin to change that. Support real reform in our schools. If health programs can tell kids not to smoke they can tell kids not to have premarital sex and abortions.

MaryJohnZ

 

[The_Barbarian]

I would say the education elite make it appear as if it is an even playing field but they hide what is being taught from parents by not allowing them in classrooms.

Your school system doesn’t let parents visit classrooms? What district is that? That isn’t a rhetorical question. I really would like to know.

They hide worksheets from parents that student work on in sex ed classes.

What district did you say was doing this? I really, really want to know.

The education people had a “parent education” meeting led by Planned Parenthood and it was attended by the head of curriculum. We had an opposing program with a pro-life doctor and no one from the school administration attended it…so not exactly hearing the other side equally.

So you’re miffed that no one paid any attention to you? Why not go to the school board meeting? They have to listen to you there.

All the facts out there tell us that STDs are at an epidemic level and yet the school system is using programs that only treat abstinence as ‘one of many choices’…and encourage students to
go to Planned Parenthood where they can obtain contraceptives without parental knowledge.

Regrettably, abstinence only programs have not had a very good record in reducing pregnancies and STDs. Some work, but many others have been failures.

I don’t know what the answer is, but what the federal programs are doing now is not working.

It is so frustrating when men (and most school board members are men from my experience) fail to care enough about the young women in their charge to make sure the young men in our schools are taught not to manipulate them and use them. Certainly that is an area os self respect and respect for others that has been neglected.

Your school district has no sexual harassment programs? What district is this?

The abstinence crowd is not treated equally. You are just giving me the same 'party line" i have heard over and over. In your mind you are being respectable and safe and maybe even ‘moral’
because you allow parents to remove kids if they want to…but be honest, the school programs are corrupting kids, not helping
them.

I’d be open to your evidence, but mere assertions aren’t going to be very convincing. Show me. And tell me what in what district all this stuff is going on.

 

[The_Barbarian]

The premise that Science leads to killing people is particularly disturbing to me now, as I’m right in the middle of the book in my signature, and the author illustrates how the foundations of modern science were almost entirely laid by Catholics, especially Catholic clergy. Science is not, in its essence, a contradiction to faith.

Of course not. I think Stein knows this. But it’s a useful lie. He might be a lot of things, but he knows what works with his target audience.

 

[buffalo]

The premise that Science leads to killing people is particularly disturbing to me now, as I’m right in the middle of the book in my signature, and the author illustrates how the foundations of modern science were almost entirely laid by Catholics, especially Catholic clergy. Science is not, in its essence, a contradiction to faith.

Science is not the issue, it’s mans misuse of it. Catholicism was not the cause of the clergy scandal, it was mans failure.

Science without Catholicism will lead to ???

 

[Orogeny]

One Q Tim…
It’ll tell me all I need to know

Is getting ID in the classroom better than not at all?

Think Hard!!!

Don’t be a LIB spinner with your answer!

ID should not be taught in the science classroom. I guess that you now know all you need to know.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

Don’t be too hard on orogeny. He has been a class act here on the forums. He is Catholic no doubt and he believes in God.

He is right in what he defines to be under sciences’ domain.

He will agree with this - Science by its own definition has a limited say about the universe. It is limited by 3 dimensions, time and our 5 senses. It cannot speak about the supernatural.

That means we need to get metaphysics in the classroom along with philosophy to complement science.

Thank you Buffalo. I guess Icarus changed his post after you responded. Hopefully between your answer and my answer, he really does know all he needs to know!

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

I understand, but his tone really annoyed me.

Either you have faith and bring it to the table all the time or you don’t have it at all.

What makes you think that I EVER leave my faith behind?

I’m not judging Tim…. I’m only recognizing the tree from the fruit it produces.

Sure you aren’t. I guess the statement about faith and your original question about my belief in God means that you have made no judgement at all.

And by the way, what tree do you recognize? Remember, no judging!

Peace

Tim

 

[jaxson]

sciam.com/article.cfm?id=six-things-ben-stein-doesnt-want-you-to-know

 

[The_Barbarian]

If Stein would falsely accuse scientists of sending his family to the gas chambers of Nazi Germany, why would anyone be surprised that he changed Darwin’s words to make it appear that he approved of brutality?

A mean, angry little guy, that one is.

 

[MaryJohnZ]

Your school system doesn’t let parents visit classrooms? What district is that? That isn’t a rhetorical question. I really would like to know.

I posted a whole answer to this at 8 AM this morning and now at 2:30 I find the post is not here on the forum. Don’t know what is up with that. I responded here that I would not tell you where the school is located but you should know that this type of thing is happening all over. Parents are blocked from sex ed classrooms. If that isn’t happening in your school I am the one who is surprised. Physicians for Life website article: read this and you can see what parents are up against. it would be a waste of my time to detail everything that happened in my school district . If you don’t know what Planned Parenthood is doing in our schools then you are not aware of what is going on in education.
How do I know Planned Parenthood was involved in my school? because the President of the state PP organization was quoted along with the parents who removed the abstinence program. The head of the PTO was a PP affiliated doctor.

"Sex Advocates Join With Teachers Union To Take Control From Parents by urging Congress to take control of children’s sex education from parents. The Sexuality Information and Education Council of the United States (SIECUS) and the National Education Association (NEA) are teaming up once again to advocate for explicit sex education. SIECUS publishes guidelines for sex education that call for children ages 5-8 to be taught about self touch and arousal, ages 9-12 to be taught different ways to seek sexual pleasure besides intercourse, and ages 16-18 to be taught about exotic fantasies enhanced by pornographic literature.

The Health Information Network of the NEA has signed their support for these guidelines. “The NEA and SIECUS were both supportive of a SB71 in California. That bill took authority away from parents and gave teachers the power to talk explicitly about sex to children of all ages. Parents do not support the messages that SIECUS and the NEA want to force on to their kids,” said Leslee Unruh [Abstinence Clearinghouse] referring to a Zogby survey comparing sex and abstinence education [2/03]. When read direct quotes from the SIECUS “Guidelines on Comprehensive Sex Education,” the Zogby survey found disapproval rates for the guidelines, with some statements garnering disapproval rates of more than 7 in 10 parents. The same study showed overwhelming approval (4.5 to 1) for the concepts taught in abstinence education. Unruh: “Parents do need to talk with their children, but not about SIECUS-style sex. They need to demonstrate love and healthy relationships so that their children can mature into adults that can sustain healthy, lifelong marriages.” “The parent is the advocate of their child,” explained Judy Gilliam, a 30-year veteran educator and assistant principal in Fort Wright, Kentucky. “I think we should teach respect for each other and respect for our bodies. I feel it is a parent’s right to be the primary educator of their child. They have the right to say what should and should not be taught, especially in sex education. The parent knows the child better than any teacher.” [The Abstinence Clearinghouse; SIECUS & NEA Announcement, When: October 9, 2004, 9:00 am Where: Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC Who: Abstinence advocates, especially educators are encouraged to attend and give their support for abstinence education. PRESS RELEASE, Deanna Grimm; 605.335.3463; 10/8/03]

So you’re miffed that no one paid any attention to you? Why not go to the school board meeting? They have to listen to you there.

I went to numerous school board meetings. We had a parent group. We were told the curriculum committee made all decisions—a committee that had not parent vote on it. They had one parent who was there only to give comments, and as I said they were willing to hold meetings without parents. I don’t really care if you believe me or not about that. It is like a refugee telling someone they were being persecuted and they tell them “prove it”. And I am wondering what would make you believ it anyway.

Regrettably, abstinence only programs have not had a very good record in reducing pregnancies and STDs. Some work, but many others have been failures.

That is only from SEICUS studies and they are a Planned Parenthood affiliate, so hardly impartial. PP or safe sex programs have not been evaluated at all.

I was wondering what you response was to the research done using baby body parts sold from abortion clinics. Does that reality speak at all to a sense of 'something is very, very wrong with all of this? I would think it would. It certainly likens the abortion industry to the way the Nazi’s used human skin and hair for lamps, etc…

This is all very awful to talk and think about but itis happening and science, drug companies and the teachers union are all a part of it.
more information at:
physiciansforlife.org/content/view/346/41/

covenantnews.com/babyparts.htm

I am wondering if some of the negatives from vaccines is because they are using by-products from abortions in some of the vaccinations. See above link for that information.

Pray the rosary to end abortion.
Pray to end this cu;ture of death.

Well, we will see if this gets posted.

MaryJohnZ

 

[The_Barbarian]

PP or safe sex programs have not been evaluated at all.

**Students who receive comprehensive sex education are half as likely to become teen parents as those who get none or abstinence-only sex education, according to researchers at the University of Washington.

What’s more, teens who had comprehensive education, which typically discusses condoms and birth-control methods as well as abstinence, were no more likely to engage in intercourse than peers who were taught just to say no to sex before marriage, researchers said.

The study is the first time researchers have taken a national sampling of teenagers to compare the effectiveness of the two approaches to sex education. And it echoes other studies that have previously suggested that the federal government’s decadelong promotion of an abstinence-only curriculum isn’t deterring young people from having sex.

UW researchers analyzed records of 1,719 straight teens aged 15 to 19 taken from a 2002 federal survey on families. Sixty-seven percent of the adolescents had taken comprehensive sex-education classes; 24 percent had received abstinence-only education, which emphasizes the safest sex is no sex and which discourages premarital sex. The remaining 9 percent received no sex education.

When differences in race, age, gender and family makeup were taken into account, students who’d had comprehensive sex education were 60 percent less likely to report a pregnancy than those without any sex education and 50 percent less likely than the abstinence-only group.

Neither comprehensive nor abstinence-only education appeared to affect the odds that a teen would contract a sexually transmitted disease.

Pamela Kohler, the study’s lead author and program manager for UW’s Center for AIDS and STD, said the findings should help steer public policies toward programs that are proven to prevent unplanned pregnancies and diseases.

“We’re building more and more evidence that [abstinence-only] education isn’t having much effect,” Kohler said. “Ultimately, what happens is that people have sex” eventually.

The federal government has endorsed abstinence-only programs for more than a decade. Congress has spent more than $1.5 billion since 1996 on the Title V Abstinence Education Program, and recently renewed it through June 30. Conservative groups, including The Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based think tank, contend that abstinence programs help delay sexual activity and reduce illegitimate births.

Under a 2007 law, schools in Washington that offer sex education must provide scientific, comprehensive education. Some abstinence programs discuss contraceptives and other safe-sex tools but emphasize their failure, not success, rates.**
seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2004293974_sexed20m.html

Again, not the answer I’d like, but reality is not compelled to meet my expectations. It’s what we have to deal with. Abstinence-only programs are not working, as presently configured. We need to do better; each failure is a life damaged, sometimes beyond repair. That is inexcusable.

I was wondering what you response was to the research done using baby body parts sold from abortion clinics.

Research? Sounds like news. Abortion is a horrible thing; selling the parts adds to the horror, although the main horror is the death of a child.

Does that reality speak at all to a sense of 'something is very, very wrong with all of this?

In the sense of abstinence only leading to more STDs, including HIV. Of course, in the case of abortion, the child has done nothing at all to cause the death. But children often lack restraint; I still grieve for them as well as for the unborn.

We can do better. We must do better.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
Your school system doesn’t let parents visit classrooms? What district is that? That isn’t a rhetorical question. I really would like to know.

I

I responded here that I would not tell you where the school is located

Regrettably, whenever I ask, no one is willing to name such a school. So I still haven’t actually found one.

but you should know that this type of thing is happening all over.

That’s the problem; no one will actually name one of these schools. And all the ones I know about, welcome parents to classrooms.

Parents are blocked from sex ed classrooms.

So far, whenever I check, no one has any evidence for it.

If that isn’t happening in your school I am the one who is surprised.

I would invite you to find a district where this actually happens, and tell me about it. Then I could see for myself.

Physicians for Life website article: read this and you can see what parents are up against.

Does it have any specific school districts? If so tell me which ones do this.

it would be a waste of my time to detail everything that happened in my school district .

Just tell me the district, and I’ll check for myself. Or if you want to offer some specifics, I’d be pleased to see them.

Barbarian suggests:
So you’re miffed that no one paid any attention to you? Why not go to the school board meeting? They have to listen to you there.

I went to numerous school board meetings. We had a parent group. We were told the curriculum committee made all decisions—a committee that had not parent vote on it.

The school board is elected by voters of your district. Go out and convince the voters to replace the school board. If the voters won’t do this, then you’ve got to deal with the fact that your values aren’t those of most people in the district. There are a number of things you can do about that, such as move to a district where people share your values.

I don’t really care if you believe me or not about that.

You could have perfectly good reasons for not telling me which district it is. But it does make it harder to accept your story.

It is like a refugee telling someone they were being persecuted and they tell them “prove it”.

It’s not unreasonable to ask someone to support their statements. If you don’t want to, that doesn’t mean you’re lying, but it does mean that you haven’t made much of a point.

And I am wondering what would make you believ it anyway.

The name of a school district would be a good start. I could then get the policies of the district.

Barbarian observes:
Regrettably, abstinence only programs have not had a very good record in reducing pregnancies and STDs. Some work, but many others have been failures.

That is only from SEICUS studies and they are a Planned Parenthood affiliate, so hardly impartial.

"Impacts of Abstinence Education on Teen Sexual Activity, Risk of Pregnancy, and Risk of Sexually Transmitted Diseases." HTML Format. Journal of Policy Analysis and Management, vol. 27, no. 2, spring 2008, Christopher Trenholm, Barbara Devaney, Kenneth Fortson, Melissa Clark, Lisa Quay, and Justin Wheeler. Document No. PP08-18.
This paper examines the impacts of four abstinence-only education programs on adolescent sexual activity and risks of pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases (STDs). Based on an experimental design, the impact analysis uses survey data collected in 2005 and early 2006 from more than 2,000 teens who had been randomly assigned to either a program group that was eligible to participate in one of the four programs or a control group that was not. The findings show no significant impact on teen sexual activity, no differences in rates of unprotected sex, and some impacts on knowledge of STDs and perceived effectiveness of condoms and birth control pills.

and

"Impacts of Four Title V, Section 510 Abstinence Education Programs." Full Report. PDF Format (702K). Executive Summary. PDF Format (801K). Princeton, NJ: Mathematica Policy Research, Inc., April 2007, Christopher Trenholm, Barbara Devaney, Ken Fortson, Lisa Quay, Justin Wheeler, and Melissa Clark. Document No. PR07-07, 164 Pages, $11.50.
Since fiscal year 1998, the Title V, Section 510 program has allocated $50 million annually in federal funding for programs that teach abstinence form sexual activity outside of marriage as the expected standard for school-age children. A new impact report from Mathematica’s congressionally mandated multi-year evaluation of four abstinence education programs finds that the programs had no effect on the sexual abstinence of youth. But it also finds that youth in these programs were no more likely to have unprotected sex, a concern that has been raised by some critics of these programs.
mathematica-mpr.com/publications/SearchList.aspx?jumpsrch=yes&txtSearch=abstinence

These studies were funded by the Bush Administration, which as you might know, heavily promoted abstinence-only. We might not like the facts, (and I don’t) but there’s no point in denying them.

 

[drpmjhess]

Barbarian asks:
Your school system doesn’t let parents visit classrooms? What district is that? That isn’t a rhetorical question. I really would like to know.

The last three posts, while interesting, seem to have relatively little to do with Expelled. Will we at some point be getting back to the compelling subject of Ben Stein lying about Darwin killing people?

 

[buffalo]

The last three posts, while interesting, seem to have relatively little to do with Expelled. Will we at some point be getting back to the compelling subject of Ben Stein lying about Darwin killing people?

I have not seen the movie, but does one or two points invalidate the whole movie, or are you just doing the same thing you accuse him of?

 

[drpmjhess]

I have not seen the movie, but does one or two points invalidate the whole movie, or are you just doing the same thing you accuse him of?

What I said above doesn’t invalidate the movie. I just wondered whether this particular thread was about sex education or about Ben’s claims about Darwin advocating killing people.

 

[drpmjhess]

What I said above doesn’t invalidate the movie. I just wondered whether this particular thread was about sex education or about Ben’s claims about Darwin advocating killing people.

No single claim invalidates a movie. But for the record, Ben Stein lies about the folloiwng:

(1) Evolution leading to Naziism
(2) The relationship between science and religion
(3) Richard Sternberg
(4) Guillermo Gonzalez
(5) Caroline Crocker
(6) Robert Marks
(7) Pamela Winnick
(8) Michael Egnor
(9) Evolution leading to atheism

Many other films tell untruths, but they are usually fiction films. Expelled purports to be a documentary, so I do think the matter of lying is more serious. In my view it invalidates the film as seriously as Dan Brown’s lying invalidated The Da Vinci Code.

Petrus