Beneath the child abuse scandal [NCRep]

[coachkfan1]

I do think that giving priests the OPTION to marry would certainly expand the pool of candidates for the preist hood. I understand that sin may infiltrate the Church, but what I fail to understand is why the overwhelming amount of homosexual sin. I mean, we almost never hear about anything else. I don’t think that it’s being a bad Catholic to ask this question.

 

[Corki]

The concept of a celibate priest often clashes with reality. Men are endowed with a near insatiable sex drive from nature, which the priesthood is supposed to mitigate through various methods, which clearly fail quite often.

“a near insatiable sex drive” isn’t from nature. Throughout the history of mankind, men have been able to exercise self-control for periods of time or permanently. If men today feel their inclinations are “near insatiable”, it is a result of culture, not nature.

The Church has always been counter-cultural. With the ‘early and often’ sexualization of children and young men, the challenge of overcoming the cultural conditioning is more difficult.

I am female and I refuse to believe that the males of the species are a bunch or hormones in skin with no more control than animals in heat. Reason and direction as driving forces of action are hallmarks of being human.

 

[1voice]

The word ‘liberal’ has different meanings in different cultures and applications. Among many ‘conservatives’, in the US, the word implies ( among other things) the institutionalization of ‘free love’ and the break from the bounds of sexual morality that started in the late 1960’s… as both a cultural and political/ legal goal.
Additionally…
I have heard that during that era a significant number of gay men entered the seminary with the intention of ‘freeing up’ the church. Many well meaning gay men probably considered the Priesthood the perfect safe haven in a time when persecution was much more serious than today. Many of that crop of priests are now in power … going into the third generation. They know and protect one another. They dont openly condone homosexuality, because they cant, but they dont have any incentive to aggressively expose it either. Dont ask. Dont tell.

 

[Another_Mary]

“a near insatiable sex drive” isn’t from nature. Throughout the history of mankind, men have been able to exercise self-control for periods of time or permanently. If men today feel their inclinations are “near insatiable”, it is a result of culture, not nature.

I am old enough to be classified as a senior citizen. When I was a teen we often heard that it was good for athletes and creative people like writers and artists to sublimate their sexual drive and focus the energy on their sport/writing/work of art.

I’m not sure when that changed…

 

[Adeodatus]

I’m not sure when that changed…

A lot of people bought a whole lot of snake oil from an Austrian named Siggy.

 

[Feanor2]

I am old enough to be classified as a senior citizen. When I was a teen we often heard that it was good for athletes and creative people like writers and artists to sublimate their sexual drive and focus the energy on their sport/writing/work of art.

I’m not sure when that changed…

I think it changed when we figured out it doesn’t work. The Seminaries now provide a mature approach to the priest’s psycho-sexual growth. We are all sexual beings, including priests. Simply denying sexuality is a recipe for disaster. A priest should praise God for his ability to give life and understand that with priesthood comes the offering up of his entire life for the Church.

Sexuality can’t be “stuffed deep inside” and cold showers aren’t the cure for a restless mind.

I believe our Bishops are doing a good job of attempting to produce well-rounded young men ready to serve the Church. Thanks to some of the initiatives begun by Bishop Wilton Gregory (I am a big fan ) the unfortunate culture of homosexuality in seminaries is being dealt with.

 

[John_Pascendi]

Reading that article and some of the comments (as far down as I could stand) it’s clear that they think it’s impossible to live without sex. That seems to be the view of most people now. If you’re not sexually fulfilled you can’t possibly be happy. If it’s true that a large number of our priests actually are sexually active, could it be that they’ve imbibed the message from popular culture that it’s impossible to control our sexual urges?

I got into an argument with an atheist friend the other day because he kept saying that the Church hates sex and wants to take away people’s pleasure. I said no, the Church wants you to value sex while the whole world is telling you you’re no better than an animal. But that kind of message seems lost on most people today.

…first the issue is…is the Catholic chuch and enemy of someone or some movement? It it is then it is quite evident this is one of the ways to go and infiltrate it and thus do immense harm…cast doubt on the clerg and destroy the innocence in the youth! All candidates know of the life style required so its just gotta be agents of an organized conspiracy …notice how they protect each other by being shipped from parish to parish…

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think it changed when we figured out it doesn’t work. The Seminaries now provide a mature approach to the priest’s psycho-sexual growth. We are all sexual beings, including priests. Simply denying sexuality is a recipe for disaster. A priest should praise God for his ability to give life and understand that with priesthood comes the offering up of his entire life for the Church.

Sexuality can’t be “stuffed deep inside” and cold showers aren’t the cure for a restless mind.

I agree. But what are the alternatives to denial that are being instituted, and are working? (If you know.)

For my part, I have seen that when priests exercise opportunities to have real, adult friendships with women – friendships that are warm and not suspiciously guarded or uptight, yet not physical – I see those priests enjoying themselves more, enjoying women as women, and coming across as healthier and more integrated. Such a priest learns a lot about himself in the process; he learns what true discipline is; he learns to relax around the other half of the human race, and he opens himself up to receiving many gifts and graces.

 

[Feanor2]

I agree. But what are the alternatives to denial that are being instituted, and are working? (If you know.)

For my part, I have seen that when priests exercise opportunities to have real, adult friendships with women – friendships that are warm and not suspiciously guarded or uptight, yet not physical – I see those priests enjoying themselves more, enjoying women as women, and coming across as healthier and more integrated. Such a priest learns a lot about himself in the process; he learns what true discipline is; he learns to relax around the other half of the human race, and he opens himself up to receiving many gifts and graces.

I think that you have nailed part of it Elizabeth,

Priests are normal men who have given up the role of father and earthly partner as a kind of foretaste of our life in heaven. There is nothing “dirty” or “forbidden” about sexual feelings. Priests have to work through them just like the rest of us.

Having normal relationships with women, men, and with their fellow priests is part of a healthy lifestyle for the priest. Tragically, and I really mean this, any bonding our good priests may have had with kids has been effectively destroyed by those few who have abused their office. Good and holy priests now have to be on some kind of heightened alert. They probably don’t even give kids hugs any more. A real shame. . . .

But anyway, priests need to be brought into the fullness of the christian family. Their lives are normal just like a married couple.

Isolation, denial, subversion, submission, are all recipes for maladaptive behavior.

 

[rodomonte]

The problem with married priests is economics. The Church would have to pay married priests a big enough salary to support a family. Where would they live? The current parish rectories provide spartan living space for several priests, not families.

With artificial birth control verboten, how many children would they average priest-family have? Some children would undoubtedly be special needs and very expensive to raise.

The number of permutations and combinations of scandals involving family members would grow exponentially with a married priesthood compared to a celibate priesthood.

The amount of gossip going around a parish about who the young assistant is dating or what the kids of the pastor are up to would be stupifying.

Could a married priest ever qualify for an anullment? I should think it would be very hard given the foreknowledge they have about the married state and the fact they do premarital counciling.

The “cons” of a married priesthood greatly outweigh the only “pro,” and that “pro” is based on the assumption that it is nearly impossible for single priests to be celibate…

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Could a married priest ever qualify for an anullment? I should think it would be very hard given the foreknowledge they have about the married state and the fact they do premarital counciling.

I understand what you mean by that but I think you’re confusing two seperate issues. Knowing and doing are always distinct. Emotions and feelings are powerful and don’t always lead to the best decisions. Even marriage counselers get divorced…

 

[Another_Mary]

I think it changed when we figured out it doesn’t work. The Seminaries now provide a mature approach to the priest’s psycho-sexual growth. We are all sexual beings, including priests. Simply denying sexuality is a recipe for disaster.

I am not certain that you understood what I meant by “sublimation”. (I assume that you were commenting on my comment since you quoted me.)

For atheletes and creative people it was understood that they were not actually “stuffing [their sexualilty] deep inside” but instead using that energy toward their creative (or athletic) endeavor.

Maybe this was never true, but I remember it being taught in classes dealing with creativiity. Before the “sexual revolution”.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I am not certain that you understood what I meant by “sublimation”. (I assume that you were commenting on my comment since you quoted me.)

For atheletes and creative people it was understood that they were not actually “stuffing [their sexualilty] deep inside” but instead using that energy toward their creative (or athletic) endeavor.

Maybe this was never true, but I remember it being taught in classes dealing with creativiity. Before the “sexual revolution”.

I’m in the over 50 crowd too and I likewise remember this. People were considered rational enough beings not to be driven by their entrails (so to speak) and to be able to master sexual IMPULSES in order to utilize and have creative outlets in other directions.

Whereas today apparently people have been conditioned to think you won’t be able to FUNCTION in any way unless you’ve got sex, and if you don’t, any function will be WARPED because you’re so bitter and hateful for not having sex.

A celibate of more than 20 years’ standing, I don’t think that I have become ‘warped’ by choosing to master those pesky impulses, raise a family, write, sing, create etc. I haven’t died from lack of sex or ‘stimulation’ either!

Good Lord --and I mean that prayerfully. We live in very ‘backward’ times. . .virtues have become vices and vices virtues in ‘the world’. .

 

[rlg94086]

I understand what you mean by that but I think you’re confusing two seperate issues. Knowing and doing are always distinct. Emotions and feelings are powerful and don’t always lead to the best decisions. Even marriage counselers get divorced…

Divorce is not the same as anullment. To determine that the marriage was invalid, would seem a little tougher when it comes to a priest. That said, no one that I know of is considering allowing priests to get married. Theoretically, the married priest would have married prior to seminary training, so it would be possible that he was ignorant of the details regarding the married state.

 

[Corki]

Divorce is not the same as anullment. To determine that the marriage was invalid, would seem a little tougher when it comes to a priest. That said, no one that I know of is considering allowing priests to get married. Theoretically, the married priest would have married prior to seminary training, so it would be possible that he was ignorant of the details regarding the married state.

Well, annullment is based on what was the reality at the time of the marriage. Since marriage would precede ordination; it is frighteningly possible that in the course of his ongoing studies, counseling and work with the marriage tribunal on behalf of parishioners, a priest comes to believe that his marriage was not valid at the time the marriage occurred.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Remain on the topic of the article, keeping in mind forum rules concerning respect for clergy. Unwarrented charges (gossip), will not be tolerated.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Divorce is not the same as anullment. To determine that the marriage was invalid, would seem a little tougher when it comes to a priest. That said, no one that I know of is considering allowing priests to get married.

The example of divorce was simply that an example. One would think that marriage counselers would know what goes into a healthy marriage and how to make one work. Yet they too get divorced.
In a similiar way, a priest who is trainned in marriage might not necessarily be able to apply those same principles to himself.

Theoretically, the married priest would have married prior to seminary training, so it would be possible that he was ignorant of the details regarding the married state.

You also answered your own objection. The priest was married BEFORE ordination. An annulment is NOT based on what he learned after his marriage.

 

[philiswilling]

I don’t believe it. 50% that ridiculous.

What. Do you think it’s even higher? I’l bet you’re right. I wonder what constituted sexually active?
Pedophilia
Homosexuality
Heterosexuality
Masterbation(with or without ordering a porn channel)

The first is a crime. Now there would be cause for alarm if that ever happened. But that would have to be such a small percentage, even if it was learned it happened in every country on the face of the earth.

The next three are between consenting adults breaking their vow too live celibate lives. Is this an unpardonable sin. I guess I would have to walk a mile in their shoes to figure out how that could be a temptation for a man.

I’m sorry. I meant to say “Contempt prior to investigation.” That happens a lot to some of the best people.

There are also more than enough scarcastic butt-in-skies who just feel they must comment in condesending ways.

 

[OriginalJS]

There sure is a lot of guessing when it comes to refuting the article. None of the guessers seems to have done any research. On the whole, I find this whole exercise very attenuated. How do you really know if a person is “sexually active” or not? If a woman is pregnant that’s evidence. But to determine the percentage of priests overall who are sexually active seems a quite difficult undertaking. Seems to me, this is a private matter that is no one’s business, unless such activity becomes known and causes scandal. I don’t really care if the priest celebrating the Mass I attend is sexually active or not, since the teaching of the Church has long been that regardless of the sinfulness of a priest, the sacraments remain valid.

 

[Feanor2]

What. Do you think it’s even higher? I’l bet you’re right. I wonder what constituted sexually active?
Pedophilia
Homosexuality
Heterosexuality
Masterbation(with or without ordering a porn channel)

The first is a crime. Now there would be cause for alarm if that ever happened. But that would have to be such a small percentage, even if it was learned it happened in every country on the face of the earth.

The next three are between consenting adults breaking their vow too live celibate lives. Is this an unpardonable sin. I guess I would have to walk a mile in their shoes to figure out how that could be a temptation for a man.

I’m sorry. I meant to say “Contempt prior to investigation.” That happens a lot to some of the best people.

There are also more than enough scarcastic butt-in-skies who just feel they must comment in condesending ways.

I’m thinking about homosexual and heterosexual activity. I am sure many priests deal with masturbation as MANY/most men do though this lessens with age.

I don’t agree with Aquinas that masturbation is worse than fornication.

Overall, I am proud of our priests. They are God’s gift and they need to be supported.

The guilty need to be severely dealt with as “to whom much is given, much is expected.”