Bernie: Pope Francis Is a Socialist

[zz912]

That is true for any country at war. If you are facing the Wehrmacht or the prospective invasion, you need to build tanks. It is part of having a “war economy”.

I said nothing about war. Fascist countries controlled the economy and what people could produce long before they went to war. And their control would not have ended when the war did. At no point did or would they ever cede control.

This is really quite risible actually. To claim that socialism, or even something such as Soviet Marxism-Leninism is identical to Nazism, is like claiming that radio waves have the same energy as gamma rays. The notion of “totalitarianism” is bogus; it is just a term to conflate unjustly the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany

You can think it laughable, but any honest appraisal of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany will see only a difference in methodology, but similarity in state control and totalitarianism. The Soviet Union is justly compared to Nazi Germany. It was actually MORE evil than Nazi Germany. I understand this can be emotionally upsetting to you, but truth can be like that.

 

[liturgyluver]

Nope. That’s a nonsensical scale that doesn’t differentiate between vastly different ideologies. The actual political scale runs the gamut of government power, from total anarchy and zero government, to socialism/communism. Fascism is next to these two because of they are all totalitarian and controlling, just differing in who owns the means of production, but in each the government is supreme.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ollG2KugbOw/UtsCW0o6LdI/AAAAAAAAAMg/heA1OsVrmUM/s1600/blog+pic+4.gif

When was this piece of fiction invented? Probably last year. Hitler and Mussolini hated socialism, even declaring war on it. Why on earth would they despise a political system that they were supposedly aligned with?

 

[Darryl1958]

I will have to bookmark this posting to see if you ever question Pelosi’s standing as a Catholic in the future.

In other words, you refuse to answer the question I posed to you.

 

[tomarin]

When was this piece of fiction invented? Probably last year. Hitler and Mussolini hated socialism, even declaring war on it. Why on earth would they despise a political system that they were supposedly aligned with?

Fascism was a movement that started with aggrieved veterans from World War I upset about the terms of the Versailles Treaty. It was the first populist right-wing movement: prior to that the right did not attempt to speak on behalf of ‘the people’. So the attempt to disassociate it from the right is simply white-washing history.

 

[liturgyluver]

Fascism was a movement that started with aggrieved veterans from World War I upset about the terms of the Versailles Treaty. It was the first populist right-wing movement: prior to that the right did not attempt to speak on behalf of ‘the people’. So the attempt to disassociate it from the right is simply white-washing history.

Precisely.

 

[estesbob]

When was this piece of fiction invented? Probably last year. Hitler and Mussolini hated socialism, even declaring war on it. Why on earth would they despise a political system that they were supposedly aligned with?

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” –Adolf Hitler

 

[ChristianDude]

Of course “anarchists” would be insulted, because they aren’t actually anarchists. They just want to violently overthrow the current government for communism/socialism. They don’t want a stateless society, they just want to tear down the current state and replace it with their favored type of state, mostly massively socialistic or communistic state.

No offense, but you apparently don’t know what anarchism actually is; and I don’t mean the state of anarchy, I mean the actual ideology of anarchism. True anarchism actually is like a stateless form of socialism/communism.

There are plenty of mythologies and theories about how “true” communism is stateless. And they are all just that, myth. In every instance of socialistic or communistic societies, the state is massive and controlling.

I was never debating whether or not the totalitarian forms of Marxism are true or not, and in fact I would argue that although technically Stalin and Mao did not follow Marxism quite as precisely as the Communist Manifesto would have wanted, they were still Marxists nonetheless. I was only pointing out that there were forms of Marxism that did not advocate autocracy, which is why I listed those examples, and I never said any of them were actually stateless, just democratic (not that it makes me like them any more, personally). The problem with the democratic ideologies was that they could never gain enough momentum, especially with the threatening nature of the totalitarian movements.

 

[ChristianDude]

“We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions.” –Adolf Hitler

That quote is actually by Gregor Strasser.

 

[jediliz]

National Socialist German Workers Party

I guess that was just an innocent name?

And I’ve never heard Pope Francis encourage raising tax rates so high they could bankrupt a company.

Bernie is a socialist

 

[Corki]

This is of course, your opinion. The appropriate level of government to handle a particular issue is left to our prudential judgement.

Once again, your opinion and your opinion only.

This we agree on.

The Catholic principle of subsidiarity asserts that government acts should be undertaken at the lowest level that is realistically possible. Where that level is relies on prudential judgement, that is true. Where Democratic Socialism (and Bernie Sanders) differ is that they would opt FIRST for a government solution and then move to a more local or lower level approach only if the big government approach was not practical or efficient. That’s actually the opposite of subsidiarity as taught by the Church.

The Church would teach that the “default” is small government or even a no government solution while Socialism teaches that the “default” is central control, even control **what **moves to a lower level.

 

[estesbob]

That quote is actually by Gregor Strasser.

And your source for ths is? Even if you assertion is true given Strsser was a high ranking NAZI official it still gives lie to the assertion that Nazis hated socialism.-especially since Nazi is the acronym for The National **Socialist **Germans Workers Party

 

[liturgyluver]

And your source for ths is? Even if you assertion is true given Strsser was a high ranking NAZI official it still gives lie to the assertion that Nazis hated socialism.-especially since Nazi is the acronym for The National **Socialist **Germans Workers Party

Why then were the first people that Hitler arrested on taking power Socialists and Communists?

 

[estesbob]

Why then were the first people that Hitler arrested on taking power Socialists and Communists?

He said he was a socialist, his Party’s name said they were socialist and he instituted a far left wing govt. I am sure he had rival socialists that he arrested when he took power. No one said he didn’t hate communists

 

[liturgyluver]

He said he was a socialist, his Party’s name said they were socialist and he instituted a far left wing govt. I am sure he had rival socialists that he arrested when he took power. No one said he didn’t hate communists

He did nothing of the kind. He clamped down on Trade Unions, privatised previously nationalised industries and introduced a regressive tax regime. Hardly the hallmarks of a left wing government. I would not like to see you tell the Nazi thugs that still exist in Eastern Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland that they are left-wing. It would not be a pretty sight!

As to the name…a misnomer. Ever heard of the German Democratic Republic?

 

[Latias]

I said nothing about war. Fascist countries controlled the economy and what people could produce long before they went to war. And their control would not have ended when the war did. At no point did or would they ever cede control.

You said something about making tanks, and the production of tanks imply some battle or war. Any government, not matter how authoritarian or liberal they are, does not make tanks just because they look cool or to defy their citizen’s desire for consumer goods. At minimum, there must be some geopolitical posture to maintain.

You can think it laughable, but any honest appraisal of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany will see only a difference in methodology, but similarity in state control and totalitarianism. The Soviet Union is justly compared to Nazi Germany. It was actually MORE evil than Nazi Germany. I understand this can be emotionally upsetting to you, but truth can be like that.

Call the Soviet Union authoritarian. It doesn’t bother me. There is no such thing as totalitarianism; it is just a term contrived to conflate the Soviet Union with Nazi Germany. The Soviet Union was authoritarian. Many other regimes that the US supported was similarly “totalitarian” or authoritarian.

 

[estesbob]

He did nothing of the kind. He clamped down on Trade Unions, privatised previously nationalised industries and introduced a regressive tax regime. Hardly the hallmarks of a left wing government. I would not like to see you tell the Nazi thugs that still exist in Eastern Germany, Hungary, Slovakia and Poland that they are left-wing. It would not be a pretty sight!

As to the name…a misnomer. Ever heard of the German Democratic Republic?

It has been somewhat amusing to watch people twist themselves into knots to deny people are what they themselves acknowledge. Sanders says he is a socialist but we are told again and again he is not. The NAZIS said they were socialist but we are told again and again they are not, The Nazism is right wing myth arises from the Left wing belief that all things evil are right wing, therefore Nazism must have been right wing

 

[Latias]

It has been somewhat amusing to watch people twist themselves into knots to deny people are what they themselves acknowledge. Sanders says he is a socialist but we are told again and again he is not. The NAZIS said they were socialist but we are told again and again they are not, The Nazism is right wing myth arises from the Left wing belief that all things evil are right wing, therefore Nazism must have been right wing

No one claims that the Shining Path and Pol Pot were right-wing because some people regarded them as “evil”.

Instead, you conflate leftism with evil, and by necessity the Nazis (more specifically the faction that took power and abandoned some of the populist economic programs on its platform) had to be left-wing.

Tell me, do you think most of the people on the forum Stormfront are right-wing or left-wing.

 

[liturgyluver]

It has been somewhat amusing to watch people twist themselves into knots to deny people are what they themselves acknowledge. Sanders says he is a socialist but we are told again and again he is not. The NAZIS said they were socialist but we are told again and again they are not, The Nazism is right wing myth arises from the Left wing belief that all things evil are right wing, therefore Nazism must have been right wing

Frankly it is more amusing watching American exceptionalism in action - “conservatives” believe that everything right wing has to be perfect and everything left wing evil and “liberals” believe that everything right wing is evil and left wing perfect. No room for nuanced or balanced thought or analysis, nor anything in between that spectrum.

Going back to your claim that the Nazi’s were socialist, was there worker ownership and control of the means of production. Not at all. Private business controlled the means of production, and were given complete power over their workers.

 

[ChristianDude]

And your source for ths is? Even if you assertion is true given Strsser was a high ranking NAZI official it still gives lie to the assertion that Nazis hated socialism.-especially since Nazi is the acronym for The National **Socialist **Germans Workers Party

It’s from “Thoughts about the Tasks of the Future”, an ideological statement that Strasser made in the late 1920s. You would be right to say that Goebbels didn’t hate socialism, but Hitler did not like it; in fact, one of Goebbels’ disagreements with Hitler was about whether or not socialism was a Jewish invention. As I said in another post, the term National Socialism is an attempt to redefine socialism for nationalistic purposes, which would thus make it inauthentic as a socialist movement; socialism is not nationalist, and seeks social ownership of the means of production for all people, not just a particular ethnic group that is perceived as superior. Hitler defended private property, and he outlawed trade unions and striking.

It has been somewhat amusing to watch people twist themselves into knots to deny people are what they themselves acknowledge. Sanders says he is a socialist but we are told again and again he is not. The NAZIS said they were socialist but we are told again and again they are not, The Nazism is right wing myth arises from the Left wing belief that all things evil are right wing, therefore Nazism must have been right wing

Hitler himself said “What is socialism? A Jewish invention to set the German people by the ears!” and “Our adopted term ‘Socialist’ has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true Socialism is not”. What you say of the Nazis being right-wing is not true at all, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are all considered far-left and they are all seen as atrocious as well. National Socialism is considered far-right because it is extremely anti-egalitarian, and it fits the mold really well in terms of common characteristics of the far-right: support for a strong state, fervent nationalism, anti-democracy, etc.

 

[abucs]

When the pope released his Papal Encyclical against National Socialism it was secretly printed at several locations in Germany and bravely read out at Mass. The Nazis took quick reprisal. Part of that reprisal was to find out which printing businesses were involved and use the state to take control of them. Other businesses were on notice, they existed in private hands only as long as they supported the state.