Best argument against the abortion "clump of cells"?

[Aquinas11]

Because many of them aren’t really arguing, in the sense of they’re open to their mind being changed. They’re close minded and trying to change someone else’s mind to be pro choice. For many of them, emotion trumps logic. It doesn’t matter how logically strong the arguments are. The whole debating thing is often a charade.

Talking about pro-choice people in general.

If they say “I’m pro-choice”, best response is "i’m pro choice too, I support
(1) abstinence
(2) birth control
(3) motherhood
(4) adoption
I just don’t support a fifth choice of murder.

 

[RealisticCatholic]

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[po18guy]

Pagans and atheists are merely clumps of cells - many by their own definition.

Oh, and that “clump” whether adult, child or embryo…

…has the exact same identifiable and unique DNA.

Pretty interesting clump of cells.

 

[midori]

I think what I meant to get at was when people identify the first few weeks as OK for abortion. Say, what if someone says the blastocyst is just “a clump of cells”?

You realize the blastocyst cycles lasts from about 5-6 days post-fertilization until implantation, which is around Day 11-12.

None of us knows when conception happens— sperm can live for about five days in the reproductive tract-- but I generally knew I was pregnant within 3 days of DTD. Waiting a week or two after your first missed period for a pregnancy test for detectable levels of hCG in your urine— it’s just confirming what you already know. Because, if you’re in tune with your body, “Ohmigosh, I’m pregnant” is way different from “Yeah, my period is missed or late, but I know I’m not pregnant. My cycle is just out of whack.” But a lot of women are so hopped up on hormones in birth control pills— I’m not surprised they’re out-of-touch with being able to instinctively realize they’ve conceived, even prior to implantation, even if they’ve never been pregnant before in their lives. You just know.

But the point being, most people who want to abort a blastocyst because it’s “just a clump of cells”— are likely not going to realize they’ve conceived before the baby has moved on from the blastocyst stage to the embryonic stage (which begins with implantation, and lasts about four or five weeks, which is six weeks post-conception).

However, the people who do believe that blastocysts are just a clump of cells are going to be the ones who are okay with birth control. (Or, the ones who support birth control will be the ones who don’t understand how it works. It’s not a magic pill that mysteriously kills all sperm, or gives your ova an impenetrable coating.) Because one of the things birth control does is prevents the blastocyst from implanting. So you lose your child— and you might never know you had one.

But the “blastocysts are people, too” argument is going to be an argument where you go, “OK, now that we understand that abortion is wrong, this is why birth control is wrong.” But right now, we’re trying to make up lost ground and get everyone on the same page to agree, “Killing your 8-week-old baby is just as wrong as killing your 38-week-old baby is just as wrong as killing your 68-week-old baby.”

 

[Pat_Albertson]

Seeing is believing. If you can get a young woman to view a sonogram of her own developing baby, that is probably the best you can do at this time. If she still resists, well . . . she has free will. Some people just want to do evil, and you can’t stop them from doing evil.

 

[whisper]

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[drac16]

That “clump of cells” is distinct and different from its mother. Just because it is undeveloped does not mean it’s less than human. There are people who can’t hear; are they less human than those who can? what about someone who is an amputee; are they less human?

Our bodies develop over time, but we are still humans. I believe that the Bible says that life is sacred-- it is a gift from the Almighty. The undeveloped human belongs to God-- it is not our call when it comes to what we should do with it. If that unborn person belongs to God, the implications for that are profound. I believe that those that are unborn are sacred and that they bear the image of God. God, as our Creator, has the right to tell us what to do with our unborn babies.

The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. Can we honestly claim that killing the child is showing it love? doesn’t it deserve a chance at life, as a creature that is made in God’s image?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

However, the people who do believe that blastocysts are just a clump of cells are going to be the ones who are okay with birth control. (Or, the ones who support birth control will be the ones who don’t understand how it works. It’s not a magic pill that mysteriously kills all sperm, or gives your ova an impenetrable coating.) Because one of the things birth control does is prevents the blastocyst from implanting. So you lose your child— and you might never know you had one.

But the “blastocysts are people, too” argument is going to be an argument where you go, “OK, now that we understand that abortion is wrong, this is why birth control is wrong.” But right now, we’re trying to make up lost ground and get everyone on the same page to agree, “Killing your 8-week-old baby is just as wrong as killing your 38-week-old baby is just as wrong as killing your 68-week-old baby.”

That is why, to be consistent, and more importantly, to protect all human life from conception, we have to oppose abortifacient birth control.

It’s going to be very difficult to persuade those who are not orthodox Catholics to give up many, if not most, forms of birth control.

https://www.hli.org/resources/abortifacient-brief-birth-control-pill/

Prepare for a fight.

 

[Wozza]

Two weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…you were pregnant it seems - but you aren’t any longer.

Thirty eight weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…I’m afraid your child is dead.

Does the woman react differently in those situations?

 

[Elf01]

Two weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…you were pregnant it seems - but you aren’t any longer.

Thirty eight weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…I’m afraid your child is dead.

Does the woman react differently in those situations?

Depends on the woman.

Also I’m sure you’d react differently if you heard I was dead to if you heard your spouse was dead. Does that mean I don’t have a right to life? What about people whose family and friends have all died. Do they have a right to life?

 

[Sbee0]

The clump of cells argument is a fancy way for the pro abortion rights side to say that the unborn is not a human and thus there are no moral qualms over abortion.

Science disagrees with them. I go with the science.

 

[JimG]

There is never a time in the life of a developing human being, from zygote to adult, when it is not highly organized. Hardly a “clump.”

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

Two weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…you were pregnant it seems - but you aren’t any longer.

Thirty eight weeks after conception:
Ms. Smith…I’m afraid your child is dead.

Does the woman react differently in those situations?

Depends on the woman.

You think that it depends on the woman? That some women would treat it the same?

 

[VanitasVanitatum]

The other parts of Elf’s argument are more compelling.

 

[blackforest]

Say, what if someone says the blastocyst is just “a clump of cells”?

Sorry if I’m repeating somebody else - I haven’t read all of the replies.

Unless you’re discussing the morning-after pill, which may or may not work by preventing implantation, this argument is disingenuous.

Nobody goes to an abortion clinic to remove a “fertilized egg” or “clump of cells.” By the time an elective, induced abortion occurs, there is an embryo of at least five weeks gestation. What's Going On in There During Pregnancy? - drFirmanAbdullahSpOG / ObGyn.com

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Pro-choicers like to focus their arguments on the earliest possible phase of human development because they feel it’s more compelling to argue about “less human-looking” humans.

 

[DIERM]

I have some initial thoughts, but I would like to see how you deal with this kind of argument.

You know – the one that says am aborted embryo is just a “clump of cells”?

Love the screen name “Realistic Catholic”…

Here’s my humble take on your question:

There is no best, or even good “argument” against abortion, or any other topic for that matter. The best proof for my hypothesis is for you to visit “World News” on this very website. “Argument” changes nobody’s mind…but it’s not the mind, but the heart of an individual that needs to be changed.

Therefore, abandon the argument, and instead, focus on prayer. Prayer, not arguments, change the heart!

 

[Wozza]

The other parts of Elf’s argument are more compelling.

We haven’t got to those parts yet. The first question needs to be answered first.

 

[Zaccheus]

I have some initial thoughts, but I would like to see how you deal with this kind of argument.

You know – the one that says am aborted embryo is just a “clump of cells”?

And when the embryo is eight months along is it still just a clump of cells?
At seven months then? Six months? Five? When does it become more than that and how do you tell?

 

[Elf01]

You think that it depends on the woman? That some women would treat it the same?

I think some women would yes, or at least be sad.

We haven’t got to those parts yet. The first question needs to be answered first.

OK. Now, does having the right to life depend on how sad someone will be to learn of your death?

 

[Wozza]

Wozza:

You think that it depends on the woman? That some women would treat it the same?

I think some women would yes, or at least be sad.

‘Or at least be sad’. Honestly? Losing a child at that late stage and you suggest that they’d be sad?

Most of the women I know would be sad at losing it at five weeks and distraught at losing at at 5 months. Isn’t that a more accurate appraisal?

Most would agree I’d suggest. And if you do accept that completely reasonable proposal, then doesn’t that indicate to you that even a woman who is pregnant and wants to be pregnant and would love to give birth, herself treats her pregnancy at a very early stage completely different to it at a very late stage.

Yet the arguments run that we should all treat all stages exactly the same.

We clearly don’t.