Best argument against the abortion "clump of cells"?

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Elf01 said:
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Wozza:
The brain is viable around week 28 and synaptic growth is sufficient at that time for it to be termed mature.
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Do people with alzheimer’s have mature synaptic systems?
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Yes. But with reduced activity. Someone with Alzheimers can operate normally under most conditions. Except under the most extreme stages when you are reduced to a mental state almost that of a new born baby. Which should clarify the underlying point you may have been making.
 
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From the linked article:

“In these situations, doctors don’t recommend resuscitation. But, when Stensrud looked at Ahmad through tears and asked him to try, Ahmad did.“If you’d like us to try, I’m willing to try,” Ahmad said. When doctors placed a breathing tube into her airway, the baby that was once blue turned pink, Ahmad said. “I’m very happy I did that,” Ahmad said. “She’s a wonderful, beautiful little girl.””

A premature baby. A human being.
 
I mean technically all of us could be considered a clump of cells if someone wanted to make the case…
 
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Prodigal1984 said:
I mean technically all of us could be considered a clump of cells if someone wanted to make the case…
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So we can use the old standby question. Do you save two embryos from a fire or a baby?

They are both just conglomerations of cells. But one is more important to you. So they are not the same, are they…
 
VanitasVanitatum said:
I save the embryos, now what?
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You explain to the mother of the child why you saved her embryos but left her child burn to death. And you have to explain it to everyone else as well because everyone would think you irrational. You can tell them why you wouldn’t even save the woman herself over the embryos. After all, two for one is a good deal, isn’t it?

That is the point you are making?
 
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Not much of an exercise when everything is in your favor. But using the cost and benefit analysis two for one makes sense.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
Not much of an exercise when everything is in your favor. But using the cost and benefit analysis two for one makes sense.
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Then there’s no need to stop at the baby. You’d save the embryos over the woman as well (unless you think you should treat a woman differently to a baby of course).

And please note that this is not a gotcha for pro choice. It’s just a means to find out where people’s values lie. There is no: ‘…and then what happens?’. That’s it. You saved the frozen embryos. End of story.

We now know your value system a little better is all.
 
vz71 said:
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Wozza:
please note that this is not a gotcha for pro choice
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Just an appeal to emotions instead of logic.
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Exactly. Although in VV’s case it appears that logic ruled his thinking. Two for one as it were. But I’m not exactly sure the numerical value is the decider for most people.

Just out of curiosity, which would you have gone for? Simple numerical value or a more nuanced approach?
 
Wozza said:
But I’m not exactly sure the numerical value is the decider for most people.
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You either use a majority or don’t, and if you do then the exercise is pretty pointless.
 
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VanitasVanitatum said:
You either use a majority or don’t, and if you do then the exercise is pretty pointless.
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Actually there are logical reasons to choose the baby
  1. The embryos will need to be frozen again quickly to actually be saved.
  2. For a Catholic there does not seem to be a moral way to deal with frozen embryos. They can’t be adopted or deliberately killed. Sad as it is letting them die in a fire like that may be the best solution.
 
Elf01 said:
  • The embryos will need to be frozen again quickly to actually be saved.
  • For a Catholic there does not seem to be a moral way to deal with frozen embryos. They can’t be adopted or deliberately killed. Sad as it is letting them die in a fire like that may be the best solution.
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Usually these exercises use magic to make it even possibly to save the embryos. So I figured it would at least consistently play out.
 
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