Better theological response to "why doesn't God heal amputees?"

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Fair enough.

Except my personal question was specifically related to your OP.

Would you then believe in God if there were an actual amputee that were healed?

And to what degree of proof would you require? Would reading about this healed amputee be sufficient? Would you have to see this person in the flesh? Would you need evidence that he actually had an amputation?

For me, personally? No, I wouldn’t believe after what I’ve been through. Neither would I interrogate the amputee in question. If he/she claims to have been healed by God, then I’m happy for him/her. I don’t need them to prove their own experience to me, so no real evidence would be required (although second-hand accounts are definitely beneficial).

I’ve spoken to people who claim they’ve met demons, were Satanists, saw Mary, heard God’s audible voice, suffered from curses so I’ll just add healed amputee to my list of the experiences of the people I’ve encountered hehe .

 

[PRmerger]

For me, personally? No, I wouldn’t believe after what I’ve been through. Neither would I interrogate the amputee in question. If he/she claims to have been healed by God, then I’m happy for him/her. I don’t need them to prove their own experience to me, so no real evidence would be required (although second-hand accounts are definitely beneficial).

Firstly, you have mentioned several times I think that your prayers for some type of healing went unanswered. (Am I correct in this?)

If this is so, then I like to use this analogy: imagine you take your 4 yr old son to the Emergency Room because he has a severe case of dehydration from 3 days of vomiting/diarrhea. The nurses must insert an IV and ask that you help hold down your son so they can insert the catheter.

Your son, seeing the nurses approach with a needle, says, “Please, Daddy! Don’t let them do this!” and instead of telling those nurses off, which is what he wants you to do, you turn around and grimly but securely hold him down so the nurses can actually HURT him.

In his eyes you are a monster now, no? He specifically asked you for something and you not only did not comply, but assisted in his pain.

Now, you could try and explain the physiology of dehydration and fluid replacement and electrolyte imbalance, but I doubt it would convince him.

See what I mean? You may have asked God to stop the pain, but instead he inflicted more. But, like the 4 yr old child, you simply cannot comprehend the reasons why your prayer was not answered to your liking.

 

[PRmerger]

For me, personally? No, I wouldn’t believe after what I’ve been through. Neither would I interrogate the amputee in question. If he/she claims to have been healed by God, then I’m happy for him/her. I don’t need them to prove their own experience to me, so no real evidence would be required (although second-hand accounts are definitely beneficial).

I’ve spoken to people who claim they’ve met demons, were Satanists, saw Mary, heard God’s audible voice, suffered from curses so I’ll just add healed amputee to my list of the experiences of the people I’ve encountered hehe .

Well, then, this question is merely an exercise in futility, no?

Whatever answer we give will not convince you, as others have rightly observed.

Have you read CS Lewis’ “The Last Battle”, BTW? (Sorry for another personal question, but I think you have indeed given me permission, yes?)

I believe you are like those obdurate dwarves in the stable who are recusant to any evidence that the Narnians keep providing. :sad_yes:

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Firstly, you have mentioned several times I think that your prayers for some type of healing went unanswered. (Am I correct in this?)

No, it wasn’t for healing. I do not believe in God’s existence for a number of reasons. The ineffectiveness of prayer is a major component of why I do not believe. I don’t want to speak too much about it as it’s a bit upsetting and I’m trying to forget about it (we can speak through the PM function), but the Bible makes it more than clear that if you ask God for something, He’ll give it (yes, I understand it might be slightly different). No ifs, no buts. Read the Old Testament, look at the all the miracles recorded. Why has “God” suddenly gone quiet? The rosary makes the bold promise that, "You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary". Again, no ifs, no buts.

That’s why I’ve vowed to myself I’ll never again believe in God. I don’t want people to go through the trauma I’ve been through. It’s not right. No human being deserves to be conned in such a magnificent way.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Well, then, this question is merely an exercise in futility, no?

Whatever answer we give will not convince you, as others have rightly observed.

No. I can learn about theological responses to why God doesn’t heal amputees; that doesn’t necessarily mean I personally believe in them in the sense of “witnessing God’s hand” or acknowledging his providence.

A few posters have offered good theological responses. I’ll acknowledge them shortly.

 

[PRmerger]

No, it wasn’t for healing. I do not believe in God’s existence for a number of reasons. The ineffectiveness of prayer is a major component of why I do not believe. I don’t want to speak too much about it as it’s a bit upsetting and I’m trying to forget about it (we can speak through the PM function), but the Bible makes it more than clear that if you ask God for something, He’ll give it (yes, I understand it might be slightly different). No ifs, no buts. Read the Old Testament, look at the all the miracles recorded.

Are you a former Catholic, Bohm, or a former evangelical?

Why has “God” suddenly gone quiet? The rosary makes the bold promise that, "You shall obtain all you ask of me by the recitation of the Rosary". Again, no ifs, no buts.

The rosary makes a bold promise? Perhaps you mean Mary? In an apparition?

If so, then this is not part of God’s Revelation.

That’s why I’ve vowed to myself I’ll never again believe in God. I don’t want people to go through the trauma I’ve been through. It’s not right. No human being deserves to be conned in such a magnificent way.

Conned? God does not con. Nor does his Church.

Returning to my father/son analogy: this 4 yr old clearly will undergo some trauma in receiving therapy to make him better. But the trauma of IV insertion provides a good of rehydration.

 

[Flyingg]

Then you obviously don’t know Catholicism.

Well at least you’re honest enough to accept the fact that you can’t find satisfactory scientific explanations to our miracles.

Knowing about something does not mean you have to believe it, imagine I’m telling you that the reason you are not following Islam, as it is supposed to be for its followers an absolute truth is because you have no enough understanding of that religion, would this make any sense to you?

For miracles I told you, each case is different and may have scientfic evidences to not accept it, but if no scientific proof is shown YET, it does not mean that I have to immediatly accept a supernatural answer as God.

 

[buffalo]

I just finished reading an article about a carpenter who accidentally sawed off his thumb. Thanks to modern science, surgeons were able to graft his toe onto his hand. The carpenter - fortunately - will be able to carry on with his livelihood.

The thought occurred to me of the age-old question of “why doesn’t God heal amputees”? The common, universal response I’ve seen to this question is that it “infringes upon the free will of nonbelievers”. But this makes no theological sense, and seems even against Church teaching if I have understood it properly.

The Church teaches that faith is a theological virtue. In other words, faith is a virtue that comes only from God’s grace. A person can not “develop” faith; faith is construed to be a gift from God. Therefore, even if a person witnessed the greatest miracles, it doesn’t necessarily follow they will have faith in God. Of which must mean that witnessing a great miracle doesn’t infringe upon the free will of a nonbeliever - the nonbeliever will still not believe.

This begs the question of why there is no recorded case of an amputee that has been healed in the modern era. I’m sure there are amputees who have prayed to God for him to physically heal them. I’m not accepting “God answers prayers, but not in the way we expect” because I’m sure that there would at least be one recorded amputee being healed in modern history, even if it means many others will have to make do with emotional healing.

It’s also important to take into consideration that the amputee is not testing God. The amputee desperately wants his/her situation to be resolved, and has placed his trust that God will answer the prayer favourably.

What’s a better theological response? Serious answers only please.

Ahhh - now I see why you went atheist. Fell into that trap did you?

Is an amputee ill? Does the body need healing? Do amputees get healed? Why isn’t anyone healed so they do not die?

Jesus instantly healed the one whose ear was cut off in the garden. This was witnessed. Will someone lay down on a lab table and demand a limb to be regrown? I doubt it. Pay attention to the other miracles in peoples lives.

Bottom line - spiritual healing is what is most important. Bodies are temporary, the soul is eternal. This is where the focus should be.

 

[lakotak]

Ahhh - now I see why you went atheist. Fell into that trap did you?

Is an amputee ill? Does the body need healing? Do amputees get healed? Why isn’t anyone healed so they do not die?

Jesus instantly healed the one whose ear was cut off in the garden. This was witnessed. Will someone lay down on a lab table and demand a limb to be regrown? I doubt it. Pay attention to the other miracles in peoples lives.

Bottom line - spiritual healing is what is most important. Bodies are temporary, the soul is eternal. This is where the focus should be.

Thank you so much for this post. I have often wondered about the questions of the OP myself from time to time. Now I understand. This makes total sense to me.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

…the Bible makes it more than clear that if you ask God for something, He’ll give it No ifs, no buts.

I used to think this way about prayer and it was one of the reasons I became really frustrated with God. I asked for things and I wouldn’t get them so I thought “hey this is BS, God said ask and you shall receive so why am I not receiving”? In my anger and frustration I decided not even think about God or religion anymore. It never crossed my mind that maybe I didn’t understand the purpose of prayer or that maybe I was misusing it. I mean it makes since that certain things won’t work if you don’t use them correctly; you wouldn’t use a buzz saw to drive a nail through a post, but hey what could I say I was emotional and being irrational so the thought never crossed my mind.

Years later I realized that pray is not meant to be used like a magical genuine lamp. It is not a tool to get what you think you need but a tool to find out if what you think you need is really what you need. I started flipping through the Old Testament and New Testament and there it was: man asking for things but only on the condition that what they ask for was what God wills them to have because they understand God’s will to be perfect. In short they didn’t want anything other than what God wills because they knew nothing else would be perfect for them.

In the New Testament Christ calls Himself a physician which means He knows what diseases (sins) we deal with and He knows what will help us fight them. I thought to myself when was the last time I went to the doctor for help and told him what medicine to give me while making the stipulation that if he doesn’t give me what I “know” to be good for me then I will denounce him as my doctor? I mean come on that would sound pretty ridiculous if I did that right? I figured if this was an unacceptable approach to take with my earthly doctor then it would likewise be unacceptable when approaching God.

This brought me to the question: “how should I approach God in prayer?”
In the New Testament a man asked Christ to teach them how to pray and this was when Christ teaches them the Our Father.

Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen

Now while many things can be said about this prayer I will just point out two things that really struck me. First notice where He says “Thy will be done” and not “My will be done”. This was a key indicator that the correct way to ask for something is to present it but then tell God you only want it if it is in accordance with what He wills for you.

Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done

Second notice the nature of the prayer: there is not one hint of selfishness in the entire thing! It doesn’t make demands or set time limits as to when things need to be done. It doesn’t give the impression that the person believes themselves to be qualified to know what they need. The prayer is 100% selfless in all aspects: it just asks to receive what they truly need, the gift of accepting the outcome, and the fortitude to not be tempted by the illusion that they know more than the physician does. When you pray your talking to the Father who is also your doctor and you have to accept like we all have to accept in real life that the diagnoses will be something we don’t want to hear and that the remedy will be something we won’t want to take or if we do take it we know it’s going to be hard because let’s face it when was the last time medicine was enjoyable and tasty. No the reality is medicine is always difficult and bitter but it is also always needed because it restores our health which is why we continue to go to ours doctor.

In the end God, like my doctor, will always give me an answer (which depending on the situation will very): sometimes we will be on the same page, sometimes we aren’t, sometimes he wants me to meet certain requirements before going further and other times He tells me to shut up because I’m being ridiculous. Yet I always know that he gives me these answers because always has my health and wellbeing in mind.

 

[Flyingg]

Jesus instantly healed the one whose ear was cut off in the garden. This was witnessed. Will someone lay down on a lab table and demand a limb to be regrown? I doubt it. Pay attention to the other miracles in peoples lives.

I’m sorry, but are you blaming an atheist for not believing in a 2000 years supernatural old story, which may not be true, how was it witnessed? It is also ‘witnessed’ that ZULFIQAR, the sword of Imam Ali was a full power sword blessed by the angel Gabriel and this sword killed hundreds to protect Mohamed from his enemies in a historical battle.

 

[buffalo]

I’m sorry, but are you blaming an atheist for not believing in a 2000 years supernatural old story, which may not be true, how was it witnessed? It is also ‘witnessed’ that ZULFIQAR, the sword of Imam Ali was a full power sword blessed by the angel Gabriel that killed hundreds to protect Mohamed from his enemies in a historical battle.

This is pretty basic.

There are no legitimate historians that deny Jesus lived.

Where you wanna start? How about extrabiblical evidence?

 

[lakotak]

I used to think this way about prayer and it was one of the reasons I became really frustrated with God. I asked for things and I wouldn’t get them so I thought “hey this is BS, God said ask and you shall receive so why am I not receiving”? In my anger and frustration I decided not even think about God or religion anymore. It never crossed my mind that maybe I didn’t understand the purpose of prayer or that maybe I was misusing it. I mean it makes since that certain things won’t work if you don’t use them correctly; you wouldn’t use a buzz saw to drive a nail through a post, but hey what could I say I was emotional and being irrational so the thought never crossed my mind.

Years later I realized that pray is not meant to be used like a magical genuine lamp. It is not a tool to get what you think you need but a tool to find out if what you think you need is really what you need. I started flipping through the Old Testament and New Testament and there it was: man asking for things but only on the condition that what they ask for was what God wills them to have because they understand God’s will to be perfect. In short they didn’t want anything other than what God wills because they knew nothing else would be perfect for them.

In the New Testament Christ calls Himself a physician which means He knows what diseases (sins) we deal with and He knows what will help us fight them. I thought to myself when was the last time I went to the doctor for help and told him what medicine to give me while making the stipulation that if he doesn’t give me what I “know” to be good for me then I will denounce him as my doctor? I mean come on that would sound pretty ridiculous if I did that right? I figured if this was an unacceptable approach to take with my earthly doctor then it would likewise be unacceptable when approaching God.

This brought me to the question: “how should I approach God in prayer?”
In the New Testament a man asked Christ to teach them how to pray and this was when Christ teaches them the Our Father.

Our Father, Who art in heaven,
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil. Amen

Now while many things can be said about this prayer I will just point out two things that really struck me. First notice where He says “Thy will be done” and not “My will be done”. This was a key indicator that the correct way to ask for something is to present it but then tell God you only want it if it is in accordance with what He wills for you.

Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done

Second notice the nature of the prayer: there is not one hint of selfishness in the entire thing! It doesn’t make demands or set time limits as to when things need to be done. It doesn’t give the impression that the person believes themselves to be qualified to know what they need. The prayer is 100% selfless in all aspects: it just asks to receive what they truly need, the gift of accepting the outcome, and the fortitude to not be tempted by the illusion that they know more than the physician does. When you pray your talking to the Father who is also your doctor and you have to accept like we all have to accept in real life that the diagnoses will be something we don’t want to hear and that the remedy will be something we won’t want to take or if we do take it we know it’s going to be hard because let’s face it when was the last time medicine was enjoyable and tasty. No the reality is medicine is always difficult and bitter but it is also always needed because it restores our health which is why we continue to go to ours doctor.

In the end God, like my doctor, will always give me an answer (which depending on the situation will very): sometimes we will be on the same page, sometimes we aren’t, sometimes he wants me to meet certain requirements before going further and other times He tells me to shut up because I’m being ridiculous. Yet I always know that he gives me these answers because always has my health and wellbeing in mind.

When all is said and prayed about, it come down to one word, trust. There has to be a bond of trust in prayer. Trust that God will give or not give you according to his perfect will for us, regardless of what we want. It took me many years to learn this, but my last two and half years in the “Mt. of Olives” on my knees has made me realize this point. God is not a prayer machine where you drop a coin in and an instant answer comes out just as you wanted. As mentioned above, he is the perfect physician of our bodies and souls, and as such, we must learn to trust in his perfect judgment, not our flawed one.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

This is pretty basic.

There are no legitimate historians that deny Jesus lived.

Where you wanna start? How about extrabiblical evidence?

With all due respect, no historian denies that Jesus existed. However, virtually every historian in academia question the legitimacy of the miracles attributed to Jesus. This is why historians search for who is called the “Historical Jesus”: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Are you a former Catholic, Bohm, or a former evangelical?

Former Catholic, unfortunately.

The rosary makes a bold promise? Perhaps you mean Mary? In an apparition?

If so, then this is not part of God’s Revelation.

I understand that perfectly. But the rosary is “implicitly” approved by the Church. Virtually every great saint and pope has recommended the rosary. It might ultimately be a private devotion, but that does not negate the fact that it is implicitly approved by the Church (same with the pilgrimage sites Fatima and Lourdes; prayers such as the Chaplet of Divine Mercy).

Conned? God does not con. Nor does his Church.

Returning to my father/son analogy: this 4 yr old clearly will undergo some trauma in receiving therapy to make him better. But the trauma of IV insertion provides a good of rehydration.

I know personally I was conned and no analogy is going to remove that. Thank you anyway.

 

[buffalo]

With all due respect, no historian denies that Jesus existed. However, virtually every historian in academia question the legitimacy of the miracles attributed to Jesus. This is why historians search for who is called the “Historical Jesus”: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

First off, don’t waste my time with Wikipedia.

Good, the Historical Jesus is agreed.

What evidence would secure your belief?

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

First off, don’t waste my time with Wikipedia.

Good, the Historical Jesus is agreed.

What evidence would secure your belief?

You seem angry (?)

Wikipedia is actually quite reliable on major topics. I also watched a BBC documentary many years ago about the “Historical Jesus” and the documentary eventually concluded that historians universally agree that Jesus existed. The question is whether Jesus is the “Son of God”.

Again, forgive me if I’ve said anything to upset you, but I’m only stating the present state of things. Even if I was Catholic today, that doesn’t remove the fact that not everyone agrees that Jesus is the Son of God. I like to report things as I see them with no bias or manipulation.

 

[jmcrae]

The thought occurred to me of the age-old question of “why doesn’t God heal amputees”?

When Jesus walked the earth, He only raised three people back to life. Yet, there were whole cemeteries full of dead people. Why did Jesus not raise all of them back to life, instead of only three?

I am sure there are cases of amputees being miraculously healed. I am equally sure that they are as rare as every other miracle. Indeed, it is because they are extremely rare, that they are called “miracles.” If they happened every single day, we’d have a scientific theory to explain them, and people still wouldn’t need to believe in God, because science would “have an explanation.”

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

When Jesus walked the earth, He only raised three people back to life. Yet, there were whole cemeteries full of dead people. Why did Jesus not raise all of them back to life, instead of only three?

Because he already promised that at the second coming, he would raise all the dead.

I am sure there are cases of amputees being miraculously healed. I am equally sure that they are as rare as every other miracle. Indeed, it is because they are extremely rare, that they are called “miracles.” If they happened every single day, we’d have a scientific theory to explain them, and people still wouldn’t need to believe in God, because science would “have an explanation.”

I’m not really sure about this, to be honest. I think a miracle is an event that breaks the laws of nature. I doubt it has anything to do with statistics (which was what I used to think). For example, you believe in transubstantiation (bread and wine turning into Jesus’ flesh), correct? And bread and wine transform into Jesus’ flesh at every Mass, but the common occurrence of this event doesn’t make it any less miraculous for a Catholic.

 

[buffalo]

You seem angry (?)

Wikipedia is actually quite reliable on major topics. I also watched a BBC documentary many years ago about the “Historical Jesus” and the documentary eventually concluded that historians universally agree that Jesus existed. The question is whether Jesus is the “Son of God”.

Again, forgive me if I’ve said anything to upset you, but I’m only stating the present state of things. Even if I was Catholic today, that doesn’t remove the fact that not everyone agrees that Jesus is the Son of God. I like to report things as I see them with no bias or manipulation.

Nope, not angry. I just don’t respect Wikipedia as a valid source.

Moving on…

So the real question is whether Jesus was Divine. Let us start here. What did Jesus Himself claim?