Better theological response to "why doesn't God heal amputees?"

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hmm… starfish can grow missing limbs back, and their missing limb can also grow into another starfish. Its a miracle.
 
You said:
hmm… starfish can grow missing limbs back, and their missing limb can also grow into another starfish. Its a miracle.
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Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the definition of a miracle, at least according to the Catholic Church? 🤷

“A miracle is said to be above nature when the effect produced is above the native powers and forces in creatures of which the known laws of nature are the expression”. source
 
PRmerger said:
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the definition of a miracle, at least according to the Catholic Church? 🤷

“A miracle is said to be above nature when the effect produced is above the native powers and forces in creatures of which the known laws of nature are the expression”. source
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can’t it be a miracle which is not above nature?
 
How many people do you think actually pray, and pray well, for a part of their body to grow back? I bet that extremely few amputees even think of asking for their part to grow back, because praying for something that miraculous doesn’t occur to them. People pray for healing when they still have the disease and it seems to them like it could go either way, not when the damage has already been done and the matter is settled, as it is with amputees. So it seems that there are compounding probabilities here:
  1. Amputees are relatively rare.
  2. Amputees who are praying, with good faith and trust, for regrowth of their lost part are quite rare.
  3. God does not grant every request.
This helps to explain why reported cases of healed amputees aren’t more common, at least.
 
Luke_K said:
How many people do you think actually pray, and pray well, for a part of their body to grow back? I bet that extremely few amputees even think of asking for their part to grow back, because praying for something that miraculous doesn’t occur to them. People pray for healing when they still have the disease and it seems to them like it could go either way, not when the damage has already been done and the matter is settled, as it is with amputees. So it seems that there are compounding probabilities here:
  1. Amputees are relatively rare.
  2. Amputees who are praying, with good faith and trust, for regrowth of their lost part are rare.
  3. God does not grant every request.
This helps to explain why reported cases of healed amputees aren’t more common, at least.
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Which is actually one reason why I’m atheist (ineffectiveness of prayer). If an amputee started a thread here on the Prayer Intentions forum for a limb to grow back, chances are posters would doubt such prayer would be answered. I used to see similar situations in reality - you would sometimes offer an intention to God and the Christians around you would give you the impression that “that can’t be answered”. So it seems to me that Christians know prayer can only do so much. It’s like a mind game. If it makes you happy, then great. But it’s not objectively effective.
 
You said:
can’t it be a miracle which is not above nature?
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Why don’t you give an example of what you have in mind? What kind of miracle are you thinking of which is “not above nature”?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Which is actually one reason why I’m atheist (ineffectiveness of prayer).
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This is unfortunate, Bohm. You should be an atheist because you believe it’s the truth, not because things didn’t go your way. That’s like a 4 yr old believing her daddy doesn’t love her because he didn’t give her a pony.

(Note: I am certainly not comparing your prayer intention to a pony, in the sense of dismissing its complexity and significance.)
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Which is actually one reason why I’m atheist (ineffectiveness of prayer).
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If by “the ineffectiveness of prayer,” you mean that you can’t bully God into giving you your own way on something, then sure - “prayer” (bullying) doesn’t work.

In my own life, though, I find that the more I talk to God, the more I get to know Him, and the more I am able to follow His will even when it conflicts with my own will, and the closer I am to Him, which is really all that matters.

I would love to receive miraculous healings and millions of dollars, and for everything to go the way I want it to go, and for my boss to always see everything my way, and for my customers to be sweet and kind all day long, and for everyone in my family to get along and be well all the time - but, you know, being close to God is more important than all of those other things, anyway, and when it comes to the end, that’s where I want to be - the other stuff, I won’t really care much about, anyway, when I’m wishing my last good-bye to this world. 🙂
 
PRmerger said:
This is unfortunate, Bohm. You should be an atheist because you believe it’s the truth, not because things didn’t go your way. That’s like a 4 yr old believing her daddy doesn’t love her because he didn’t give her a pony.
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No. What I mean by “ineffectiveness of prayer” is that prayer (at least, petition) is ultimately a useless act. I was unfortunate enough to experience this truth first-hand. That indicates to me the non-existence of God, although I have a few other reasons not to believe.
 
jmcrae said:
If by “the ineffectiveness of prayer,” you mean that you can’t bully God into giving you your own way on something, then sure - “prayer” (bullying) doesn’t work.

In my own life, though, I find that the more I talk to God, the more I get to know Him, and the more I am able to follow His will even when it conflicts with my own will, and the closer I am to Him, which is really all that matters.
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Like I said in my previous post, if praying makes you happy, great. But that doesn’t change the reality of the fact that prayer can’t do much to change the material world (as in the case of the amputee). This refutes all of Jesus’ bold assertions and promises made in the Bible about the power of prayer.
jmcrae said:
I would love to receive miraculous healings and millions of dollars, and for everything to go the way I want it to go, and for my boss to always see everything my way, and for my customers to be sweet and kind all day long, and for everyone in my family to get along and be well all the time - but, you know, being close to God is more important than all of those other things, anyway, and when it comes to the end, that’s where I want to be - the other stuff, I won’t really care much about, anyway, when I’m wishing my last good-bye to this world. 🙂
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I don’t think anyone who lapsed out of his/her faith for reasons similar to mine was expecting utopia. They were just expecting to see a glimpse of God’s hand and they couldn’t even get that. That’s why I’m utterly convinced that there is no God - to quote Nietzsche, “God is dead”.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
No. What I mean by “ineffectiveness of prayer” is that prayer (at least, petition) is ultimately a useless act.
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Absolutely not.

I believe you when you say that you prayed very hard for something which you did not receive.

But I would be skeptical if you tell me that never, in the entirety of your life as a Catholic, did you receive what you prayed for.

Can you speak to this, Bohm? Not a single time in your life was a prayer effective?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Like I said in my previous post, if praying makes you happy, great. But that doesn’t change the reality of the fact that prayer can’t do much to change the material world (as in the case of the amputee).
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You know that that’s what God created us for, right? WE are the builders of cities, and hospitals, and roads, and the cultivators of farms. We are supposed to provide for each other’s needs - it’s not up to God to send a miracle every five minutes.
This refutes all of Jesus’ bold assertions and promises made in the Bible about the power of prayer.
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When we ask God to meet our needs, He will do so in His way. It won’t always look like what we were expecting.

Obviously, you are still here and alive, so obviously, God is meeting your needs in some way. Just not the way you were hoping for.
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
I don’t think anyone who lapsed out of his/her faith for reasons similar to mine was expecting utopia. They were just expecting to see a glimpse of God’s hand and they couldn’t even get that. That’s why I’m utterly convinced that there is no God - to quote Nietzsche, “God is dead”.
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God is not just a bigger version of us. Because you didn’t get a glimpse of God’s hand has nothing to do with whether or not he exists.
 
You said:
Yes, why not. Its easy to forget and take for granted that everything was created from nothing, even the little starfish.
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Well, then, that would not be an example of something that is “not above nature”.

For, by definition, “nature” did not exist before the Big Bang, right?

Can you give an actual example of something that you believe is a miracle that is “not above nature”?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
What’s a better theological response? Serious answers only please.
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C’est la vie

But seriously, God allows negative things to happen to bring about a greater good. Of course, God only opens the door and we need to walk through it
 
PRmerger said:
Well, then, that would not be an example of something that is “not above nature”.

For, by definition, “nature” did not exist before the Big Bang, right?

Can you give an actual example of something that you believe is a miracle that is “not above nature”?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PRmerger
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the definition of a miracle, at least according to the Catholic Church?
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“A miracle is said to be above nature when the effect produced is above the native powers and forces in creatures of which the known laws of nature are the expression”. source
can’t it be a miracle which is not above nature?
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From your definition there appears to be [perhaps] miracles of nature, and, miracles above nature. Unless you are telling Bohm Bawerk that he is living in a miracle full stop - which wouldn’t be a bad thing.
 
You said:
From your definition there appears to be [perhaps] miracles of nature, and, miracles above nature. Unless you are telling Bohm Bawerk that he is living in a miracle full stop - which wouldn’t be a bad thing.
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Well, in a philosophical sense all of existence is a miracle, no?

But in the way that we’re discussing in this thread, your starfish example is not a miracle.
 
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