Bible Alone?

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DeusExMachina said:
No offense Jon, but I’d wager if our friend DR Luther were around today, he’d straight up label you as a papist 😉
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I don’t have to sit here and take this. :mad: 😃

Seriously, though, I don’t think he would. I think the single greatest division between Lutheranism and Catholicism remains how each communion views the power and primacy of the papacy. I (still) fall on the side of our communion, that universal ordinary and immediate jurisdiction of the pope is contrary to scriptures and the early Church. Don’t get me wrong, however, Popes JP II and Benedict are two of the best examples of the Christian faith in my lifetime.

Not offended, BTW.
Jon
 
commenter said:
Creeping papalism. It’s brought down many an intelligent thinker.
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It’s a problem! A good Lutheran can be walking down the street, and POW! Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI sneaks up with holy water and makes them Catholic! :eek:
 
benjohnson said:
It’s a problem! A good Lutheran can be walking down the street, and POW! Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI sneaks up with holy water and makes them Catholic! :eek:
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And for a bad Luthern he would make him drop a coin in the coffer first.😃
 
JonNC said:
I don’t have to sit here and take this. :mad: 😃

Seriously, though, I don’t think he would. I think the single greatest division between Lutheranism and Catholicism remains how each communion views the power and primacy of the papacy. I (still) fall on the side of our communion, that universal ordinary and immediate jurisdiction of the pope is contrary to scriptures and the early Church. Don’t get me wrong, however, Popes JP II and Benedict are two of the best examples of the Christian faith in my lifetime.

Not offended, BTW.
Jon
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The papacy is an important distinction.

I’m on another thread getting hammered by my own brethren because of Ephesians 2:8 and James 2.

Another big difference, I’d say, is that Catholics used to say, or at least teach, that we were saved by our own works and our being “good”.

Now this has been changed and we teach that salvation is through faith and THEN come works. Some of us still have a problem understanding this and i DO think it’s a really big difference.

Some don’t grasp the distinction. How do Lutherans understand this?

Just a thought.

Fran
 
frangiuliano115 said:
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The papacy is an important distinction.
I’m on another thread getting hammered by my own brethren because of Ephesians 2:8 and James 2.
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Not really, Fran. You get hemmered about the way you post. 😉

The New Testament was written by, for, and about Catholics. There is nothing in it that is not Catholic. Catholics will not “hammer” you about the content. It would be how you perceive or represent the content.
frangiuliano115 said:
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Another big difference, I'd say, is that Catholics used to say, or at least teach, that we were saved by our own works and our being "good".
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It is important to distinquish that the Church has never taught this (although it is a sad fact that even catechists did present the faith this way). Individual Catholics being poorly catechized does create problems in understanding the faith. Many of us were poorly catechized.

I do not remember whether I was taught this or not, but I sure did grow up with that idea, and held on to it until I met some of my Baptist siblings, who were able to disabuse me of it.
frangiuliano115 said:
Now this has been changed and we teach that salvation is through faith and THEN come works. Some of us still have a problem understanding this and i DO think it’s a really big difference. Some don’t grasp the distinction.
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Without a doubt, it makes all the difference.

But the “this” that was changed refers to how the faith is taught, not what the Church believes.
 
steido01 said:
How d’you figure?
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He agrees that Lutherans and Catholics maintain similar teachings on tradition (thus contradicting sola sciptura) and has stated the importance of good works to god (thus contradicting sola fide)🙂
 
DeusExMachina said:
He agrees that Lutherans and Catholics maintain similar teachings on tradition (thus contradicting sola sciptura) and has stated the importance of good works to god (thus contradicting sola fide)🙂
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You don’t know he taught sola fide right ? yes works are important , but they don’t save ( seriously :banghead: ) it doesn’t contradict sola fide .
 
**
Starwarsfan2 said:
The quote still applies as Jon believes sola fide , and you know sola fide doesn’t deny works , it just maintains that they don’t justify.
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I am confused. Does the Holy Bible say anywhere that they do justify? Why does St. James state several times that they do justify? How can not doing works cause one to lose justification? If we can lose justification by not doing works, which Father K admitted on an earlier thread, then works of charity must justify.
 
Duane1966 said:
**I am confused. Does the Holy Bible say anywhere that they do justify? Why does St. James state several times that they do justify? How can not doing works cause one to lose justification? If we can lose justification by not doing works, which Father K admitted on an earlier thread, then works of charity must justify.
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Bravo!👍
 
Ephesians 2:8-9New International Version (NIV)

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

And THEN

James 2:17New International Version (NIV)

17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

By what are we justified (saved)?
And then what comes next?
 
DeusExMachina said:
He agrees that Lutherans and Catholics maintain similar teachings on tradition (thus contradicting sola sciptura) and has stated the importance of good works to god (thus contradicting sola fide)🙂
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Where did I contradict sola scriptural?
Confirming the necessity of good works does not contradict sola fide.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
👍

Jon
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If I have faith, am justified and do many works of charity, but I become tired and do not persevere, and somewhere along the way I start turning a blind eye to my brother in need. Could I lose my justification for a lack of works of charity?
 
JonNC said:
Where did I contradict sola scriptural?
Confirming the necessity of good works does not contradict sola fide.

Jon
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I was under the impression that sola fide meant faith alone. Is this correct?
 
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