Bible, Quran – Beauties Beyond Comparison?

[seraphime2008]

part II

“Another suggestion was made that, Quranic Zul-qarnain was an ancient king of Persia. But there is nothing in our literature to suggest that Zul-qarnain came to any such ignominious end. If it is argued that it was some old prehistoric Persian king who built the iron gates (Quran:18:96) to keep the Gog and magog tribes (Quran:18:94), this is no identification at all. Another suggestion made is that it was some old prehistoric Himyarite king from Yemen, about whom nothing else is known. An identification with a supposed pre-historic king, about whom nothing is known, is no identification at all.”

“The question of Yajuj and majuj (Gog and Magog) and the iron barrier built to keep them out is of some interest. It is practically agreed that they were the wild tribes of Central Asia (Manchus and Mongols) which have made inroads on settled kingdoms and Empires at various stages of the world’s history.”

“ The Barrier in the text must have been more in the nature of iron gates then a iron wall. Two iron gates, geographically far apart, have been suggested in the alternative. Sometimes they have been mixed up by writers not strong in geography. Both of them have local association with the name of Alexander the great. Both are near a town Derbend, and have borne the name of bab-ul-hadid (Arabic word for iron gate). The best known iron gate in modern times is at the town and seaport of derbend in the middle of the western coast of the Caspian Sea. In the early days, when Muslims spread to all parts of the world, local legends were started by ignorant people connecting the places they knew with places referred to in the Quran.”

“ We now come to the “iron gate” which corresponds exactly to the Quranic description, and has the best claim to be connected with Alexander’s story. It is near another Derbend in Central asia, Hissar District, about 150 miles south-east of Bukhara. There is no iron gate there now, but there was one in 7th century when the Chinese traveler Hiouen Tsiang saw it on his journey to India. He saw two folding gates cased with iron and hung with bells. Near by is a lake named Iskandar Kul, connecting the locality with Alexander the Great. We know from history that Alexander, after his conquest of Persia and before his journey to India, visited Sogdiana (Bukara) maracanda (Samarqand). We also know from Muqaddasi, the Arab traveler and geographer, who wrote about A.H. 375 (A.D. 985-6) the Abbasi Khalifa Wathiq (842-846 A.D.) sent out a mission to Central asia to report on this iron gate. They found the defile 150 yards wide: on two jambs made with bricks of iron welded together with molten lead, were hung two huge Gates, which are kept closed. NOTHING COULD CORRESPOND MORE EXACTLY WITH THE DESCRIPTION IN HOLY QURA’N (18: 95-96)”

“If then the Barrier (in Quran:18:95-98) refers to the Iron gate near Bukhara, we are able to proceed to a consideration of the Gog and Magog people with some confidence. They were the Mongol tribes on the other side of the Barrier, while the industrious men who did not understand Zul-qarnain’s language were the turks, with their agglutinative language, so different from the languages then spoken in Western Asia. This Barrier served its purpose for the time being. We need not bother about the legends of Gog and Magog people. They were reputed to be Giants, and two tiny hills in flat Cambridgeshire are derisively called the Gog and Magog hills. In the Alexander legends of medieval Europe, Gog and magog are said to have come with 400, 000 men to the help of Porus whom Alexander defeated, and to have fled after that defeat. They fled to the mountains, and Alexander built a wall with brass gates to prevent their irruption (Paul Meyer, Alexander le Grand dans la literature fraqaise du Moyen age: Paris, 1886; Vol.2, pp:386-389).”

About Alexander’s westward journey Maulana Yousuf Ali writes:

“One such point in the mention of Alexander’s westward journey (Quran:18:86): “He saw the sun set in a piece of murky water which is described as a spring. Most commentators have understood the “spring” to be the sea, and takes the “murky water” to be the dark blue water………to the west of the town of Lychnis is a lake 170 square miles in area fed by underground springs that issue through limestone rocks and give out murky water. Both town and lake is now called Ochrida, about 50 miles west of Monastir. The water is so dark that the river which forms the outlet of the lake to the north is called the Black Drin. Looking at the Sun-set from the Town, the observer would see the sun set in a pool of murky water (Quran-18:86). History tell us that, it was a question before the boy King Alexander—the dreamy, impulsive, fearless rider, whether he would put the barbarous Illyriccans to the sword or show them mercy. He showed true discrimination and statesmanship. He punished the guilty and showed kindness to the innocent, and thus consolidated his power in the west. This I (Yousuf Ali) construe to be the meaning of verses (18:86-87); otherwise these verses do not seem to be perfectly clear. Another point may be noted. Three episodes mentioned are: (1) journey to the west, (2) the journey to the east, (3) and journey to the “Iron Gate”: The journey to the west I have just explained. The journey to the east was to the Persian Empire. Here he found a people who lived in the open and wore little clothing. This might apply to people who lived in an inland place in the latitude of Persepolis or Multan. He left them alone as they were (Quran:18:91).”

References:
Holy Quran-translated by Mauolana Yousuf Ali
Holy Quran-translated by Maoulana Mahiuddin Khan

 

[ZAKI]

Your statement is incorrect, Zagi -

According to altafisr.com - Royal Aal al-Bayt Institute for Islamic Thought, Amman, Jordan, states it is Alexander.

altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=83&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

{ وَيَسْأَلُونَكَ عَن ذِي ٱلْقَرْنَيْنِ قُلْ سَأَتْلُواْ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْهُ ذِكْراً }

And they, the Jews, question you concerning Dhū’l-Qarnayn, whose name was Alexander; he was not a prophet. Say: ‘I shall recite, relate, to you a mention, an account, of him’, of his affair.

could you find me another five sources which say this???

wasalam

 

[elwill]

The fact is if you study the history of Judaism and Christianity, no one ever considered a book itself to be a miracle. Moses didn’t walk into Egypt and get Jews to follow him by saying, “Hey, look at this cool book I’m working on!” On the contrary, God performed miracles through him such as turning his staff into a snake and bringing plagues upon Egypt. Mohammad cannot compare; as dzheremi said, the best most Muslims can do is distort passages to fit what they want them to mean.

Each messenger brought to his people a miracle commensurate with the kind of knowledge they most excelled in.
Thus, because the people to whom Moses was sent excelled in magic, the form of the miracle, which he challenged them with was of a magical nature.

peace

 

[elwill]

Elwill, I want to hear what’s so beautiful about the Quran. Which is it? At least planten tried to put in some verses. At his point, I refrain from saying, is that all you have to show for? I know we have some limitation in the knowledge of our holy book respectively but I want to know what strikes you in the Quran that makes you say it is beautiful, a miracle? I don’t want to hear you saying it is a miracle just because someone else says so.

i ahve no problem to show you , but you actually don’t speak arabic to realize the beuty of quran from this aspect , so if i want to show the miracle of quran from languge view , i can’t but to describe it , not to mention it , are you understand me

as for example when i tell you background about the skills which arabs had in the time of quran , then i tell you that quran challange those people , so even if you don’t know arabic but you will just realize the situation

The Arabic language, as can be attested to by any of it’s scholars, is a very rich and powerful language. The Bedouin people of the Arabian desert were, in general, illiterate people of very little scientific knowledge. The thing that set them apart, however, was their mastery of poetry. Spending their days as they did in the desert watching their sheep graze got quite boring. They alleviated their boredom by continually composing and refining poetry. They would spend entire years composing and refining their poetry in anticipation of a yearly face-down of the poetic compositions of their peers from all over the country. The fact that they were illiterate forced them to also train themselves in the memorization of works of literature to such an extent that they were able to memorize complete works from a single recitation. Even in matters of leadership, one of the major criteria for selecting the leaders of the various Bedouin tribes was the individual’s prowess in literary composition and memorization.

The Arabian Bedouins took great pains to make their poetry as compact and picturesque as humanly possible, constantly expanding the language along the way. A single word could convey complete pictures. The Qur’an, however, has put even these great efforts to shame. You will notice that when a Muslim translates a verse of the Qur’an he usually does not say “the Qur’an says so and so” but rather “An approximation of the meaning of what the Qur’an says is so and so.” You really need to know the language to comprehend this.

In the English language, we find that the words: “mustang,” “colt,” “mare,” “pony,” “stallion,” “bronco”… etc. all refer to the same thing; a horse. Each one of these words conveys a slightly different mental picture. The mental picture we get when we hear the word “colt” is slightly different than the picture we get if we hear the word “mare.” In a similar manner, the Arabic language progressed in such a fashion as to make it possible to convey such mental pictures in as concise and picturesque a format as possible. It is not at all uncommon to find over three hundred words that refer to the same thing in the Arabic language. Each one of these words gives a slightly different picture than the others.
Many centuries of this constant refinement eventually lead to a very complex and rich vocabulary, and the primary miracle of Muhammad (pbuh), the Qur’an, was in exactly this field

I have tried to give examples of some of the content of the Bible, some of them actually had made an impact in my own life. The Eleventh Hour, for example. Despite being a cradle Catholic, I came to truly know the Lord quite late in life thus the eleventh hour and yet I was paid the same day wages, and my life has been changed since then.

God bless.

we believe that the book of Islam itself was made the main miracle of Islam and it has continued to renew it’s challenge to mankind throughout the ages.

What does this mean? Nowadays, the number of people who can appreciate the literary content of the Qur’an has dwindled and this challenge no longer has the same impact it did fourteen hundred years ago.

Recently, a new field of study has opened up to scholars. People nowadays are fascinated with science. This is the age of technology and scientific discovery. For this reason, mankind has begun to study the religious scriptures of mankind from a scientific point of view in order to challenge the scientific claims made in these scriptures.
Many works have been published on this topic

are you have problem to use this field as a proof for the quran ?

 

[Reuben_J]

Each messenger brought to his people a miracle commensurate with the kind of knowledge they most excelled in.
Thus, because the people to whom Moses was sent excelled in magic, the form of the miracle, which he challenged them with was of a magical nature.

peace

Excellent. Now what was the miracle attributed to Mohammad?

What was the miracle in the Quran? I want to see its beauty if that’s the miracle. So far what have been pointed out here is its error and inaccuracy. I see Muslims are having a hard time to dispute that Zulkarnain was not Alexander the Great though that was the understanding among Muslims for quite sometimes until they knew better that it should not be.

Please show us the miracle of the Quran. Show us the beauty of its verses since they are its purpported miracle. Or is that all there is to it? I mean in your first post on this thread?

I really don’t mean to sound rude but I want to go into the bottom of this. So far this subject has not been explained and demonstrated in true details. So I hope you and Muslims here have to bear with us.

God bless.

 

[Byzantine_Wolf]

Each messenger brought to his people a miracle commensurate with the kind of knowledge they most excelled in.
Thus, because the people to whom Moses was sent excelled in magic, the form of the miracle, which he challenged them with was of a magical nature.

peace

That’s not at all why Moses was the power of miracles.

Then Moses answered and said, “But suppose they will not believe me or listen to my voice; suppose they say, ‘The LORD has not appeared to you.’” So the LORD said to him, “What is that in your hand?” He said, “A rod.”

And He said, “Cast it on the ground.” So he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it. Then the LORD said to Moses, “Reach out your hand and take it by the tail” (and he reached out his hand and caught it, and it became a rod in his hand), “that they may believe that the LORD God of their fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has appeared to you.” [Exodus 4:1-5]

The miracles performed by Moses were to confirm he was sent by God, not to outdo the Pharaoh’s magicians. Their magic being upstaged was simply a side affect of their trying to go up against the Lord.

In fact, you’ll find that the only people who ever tried to pass off a single book as their sole miracle were heretics and false prophets.

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia—remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. [1 Timothy 1:3-4]

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. [Galatians 1:8]

we believe that the book of Islam itself was made the main miracle of Islam and it has continued to renew it’s challenge to mankind throughout the ages.

Again, if a mere book can be a miracle, then the Mormons are right to call the Book of Mormon a miracle, and Mormonism and Islam are equally valid.

 

[elwill]

Excellent. Now what was the miracle attributed to Mohammad?

What was the miracle in the Quran? I want to see its beauty if that’s the miracle. So far what have been pointed out here is its error and inaccuracy. I see Muslims are having a hard time to dispute that Zulkarnain was not Alexander the Great though that was the understanding among Muslims for quite sometimes until they knew better that it should not be.

Please show us the miracle of the Quran. Show us the beauty of its verses since they are its purpported miracle. Or is that all there is to it? I mean in your first post on this thread?

I really don’t mean to sound rude but I want to go into the bottom of this. So far this subject has not been explained and demonstrated in true details. So I hope you and Muslims here have to bear with us.

God bless.

your sound isn’t rude for me , you have the rights to ask us what you want

Quran ( [041:053] Soon will We show them our Signs in the ( furthest) regions, and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this (quran) is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?

1-The first apparent that man faced in travelling in the space and tried to overcome it was the (dyspnea),and this problem occurs from the rarity of air in the upper layers of the sky (space) and we can notice that the quran foretold about this problem from 1400 years ago and behold that no one was awared by this problem till the scientists discovered that in the present century.
#Quran ( [006:125] Those whom God willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,-** He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: **thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.)
-The god said in the previous versus that the one who climb up in the sky his breast is clothed and constricted.​

2-After the geologicals do their research ,they found that the deepest part on the world is that which lies in the dead sea where the roman empire was defeated,and we can clearly notice that when the quran foretold from 1425 years ago that this place is the deepest place on the earth where romans are defeated.
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
[030:004] Within a few years. With God is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-)

---

Do u know that the person cann`t feel heat except for through some tissues that are found in the SKIN ,so the one can loose his feeling of heat if his skin is destroyed or completely burnt.​

#Quran ( [004:056] Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise. )

---

The scientists who are intersted in the study of seas and oceans have discovered that there are internal waves at the very depth of the oceans and seas in addition to the waves that we see in the ocean and they called this ( deep sea) ( where this waves lie), and this ( deep sea) are characterized by their fully darkness so as that the creatures that live there ( fish) have no eyes, and no person can see anything in this place because of its darkness.
#Quran ( [024:040] Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom God giveth not light, there is no light! )-The quran foretold about this (deep sea) and the waves in it and its fully darkness from 1425 years ago,​

#The chemists discovered that the (iron metal) cannt be formed on the earth because its formation temperature ( the temperature that iron need to form the iron metal) is very very high and cannt be found on the earth so the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temerature and then it is sent to earh ( another place as sun).
Quran ( [057:025] We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and** We sent down Iron**, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that God may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

This verse marks the 26th occurrence of the word God (Allah) from the beginning of this sura. 26 also happens to be the Atomic Number of iron!​

#The scientists prooved that the earth and the heavens were one part closed together as the begining of creation and then they cloved asunder into two parts and also they prooved that every living thing is made of water.
#Quran ( [021:030] Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? )

---

The astronomy prooved that every planet rotates in its cyclic path (its orbit) and he could never leave its own orbit.
#Quran ( [021:033] It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. )

 

[elwill]

Again, if a mere book can be a miracle, then the Mormons are right to call the Book of Mormon a miracle, and Mormonism and Islam are equally valid.

quran isn’t a mere book , For Muslims, the miraculousness of the Quran is not only a matter of religious belief, but for scholars and researchers it is a matter of scientific belief. The Quran possesses a remarkable comprehensiveness and richness, with respect to its world view and scientific content, and its ability to guide not only the individual and society in spiritual aspect, but also in the realms of natural environment and mysteries of life. There are still many matters contained in the Quran that call for investigation and await discovery by further research.

Throughout ages, mankind has undergone numerous changes, and passing through repeated stages of development and growth, it has attained a more comprehensive awareness of the mysteries of creation. Nonetheless, the Quran has at all times retained its proud and dignified presence on the stage of human history and scientific discoveries.

**Dr. Maurice Bucaille, the French scientist, **writes as follows: “A crucial fact is that the Quran, while inviting us to cultivate science, itself contains many observations on natural phenomena and includes explanatory details which are seen to be in total agreement with modern scientific data…
“These scientific considerations, which are very specific to the Quran, greatly surprised me first. Up until then, I had not thought it possible for one to find so many statements in a text compiled more than thirteen centuries ago referring to extremely diverse subjects and all of them totally in keeping with modern scientific knowledge. … A thorough linguistic knowledge is not in itself sufficient to understand these verses from the Quran. What is needed along with this is a highly diversified knowledge of Science. … The hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of Quran is quite untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merit, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at the time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncements on the subject?
“The ideas in this study are developed from a purely scientific point of view. They lead to the conclusion that it is inconceivable from a human being living in the seventh century A.D. To have made statements in the Quran on a great variety of subjects that do not belong to his period and for them to be in keeping with what was to be known only centuries later. For me, there can be no human explanation to the Quran”.

Byzantine_Wolf , you have to understand that the purpose of any miracle is to convince the unbelievers and to strength faith the believers
when i say to you that quran is miracle , i will show you how it’s miracle from unbeliever point of view
the miracle of quran isn’t kind of faith which muslims have , actuallty it’s challanges and proofs which quran have to the unbelieves

The limitation in time of the miracles performed by the earlier Prophets was an indication of the impermanence of their religions and the laws that they brought. By contrast, the miracle attesting to the prophethood for the Prophet of Islam cannot be temporally limited, because his message is universal and represents the culmination of all preceding religions; his prophethood requires an eternal miracle, a brilliant and eloquent proof of its immortality embedded with the ongoing scientific discoveries.

A permanent message must display to mankind a permanent and everlasting miracle, one which advances with time, so that just as it offered convincing proof to people of the past, it may do the same to people of the future. A short-lived miracle that is imperceptible to later generations cannot be a source of reference or judgment for the future.

 

[Hadi]

2-After the geologicals do their research ,they found that the deepest part on the world is that which lies in the dead sea where the roman empire was defeated,and we can clearly notice that when the quran foretold from 1425 years ago that this place is the deepest place on the earth where romans are defeated.
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
[030:004] Within a few years. With God is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-)

check this website answering-christianity.com/lowest_land_miracle.htm

 

[ZAKI]

subhanallah amazing.

jazakallah khair for sharing those miracles elwill

wasalam

 

[planten]

subhanallah amazing.

jazakallah khair for sharing those miracles elwill

wasalam

By elwill:
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
[030:004] Within a few years. With God is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-)

**I had posted these verses on forum before. In about 618 A.D. There was a war between Persian (pagans) and the Roman christians. The persians beat the Romans. King Khusro Pervaiz of Persia took one young beautiful royal girl (named Shireen) as ransom. The Arab pagans were aligned with the Persian pagans (Fire worshippers). The early Muslims used to side with the Roman christians.
So the Arab pagans rejoiced and celebrated the victory of the Persians.

The defeat of the christians was taken as the defeat of the Muslims. The Arab pagans (Mushrikeen) started abusing and persecuting the Muslims all the more. That was to celebrate their victory.

The Prophet Muhammad prayed for the victory of the Christians (say catholics). Allah accepted his prayers and informed the prophet in the above words of the Quran, chapter 30, first few verses…

…".That even though the People of Rome have gone down (defeated) recently in a nearby land, they will come back and be victorious in a few years ( Bidha’a sineen = '3 to 9 years)."

This is a clear prophecy of the Quran that Romans will defeat the opponents within 3 to nine years…

It goes further. This news was given to the prophet in Makkah before migration. he did not know that he will have to migrate. The Prophet was further told that there will be other good news too. The Romans will be victorious and there ill be some other victory too which the Muslims will also celebrate in the same days.

So a war was fought between the Romans and Persians in the year 623 A.D (approx). The Romans beat the Persians. In the Same year (624 .A.D.) there was a battle at the field of Badr between the attacking forces of Makkah and the defending forces of Madinah Muslims. The 313 Muslims beat the 1000 strong army of the Arab pagans of Makkah. Many pagans were killed and many taken prisnors.

So according to the verses, that Day did the Believers rejoice, with double happiness.

The battle of Badr was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah. Please See Isaiah chapter 21, verses 3-17.

**

 

[ZAKI]

**I had posted these verses on forum before. In about 618 A.D. There was a war between Persian (pagans) and the Roman christians. The persians beat the Romans. King Khusro Pervaiz of Persia took one young beautiful royal girl (named Shireen) as ransom. The Arab pagans were aligned with the Persian pagans (Fire worshippers). The early Muslims used to side with the Roman christians.
So the Arab pagans rejoiced and celebrated the victory of the Persians.

The defeat of the christians was taken as the defeat of the Muslims. The Arab pagans (Mushrikeen) started abusing and persecuting the Muslims all the more. That was to celebrate their victory.

The Prophet Muhammad prayed for the victory of the Christians (say catholics). Allah accepted his prayers and informed the prophet in the above words of the Quran, chapter 30, first few verses…

…".That even though the People of Rome have gone down (defeated) recently in a nearby land, they will come back and be victorious in a few years ( Bidha’a sineen = '3 to 9 years)."

This is a clear prophecy of the Quran that Romans will defeat the opponents within 3 to nine years…

It goes further. This news was given to the prophet in Makkah before migration. he did not know that he will have to migrate. The Prophet was further told that there will be other good news too. The Romans will be victorious and there ill be some other victory too which the Muslims will also celebrate in the same days.

So a war was fought between the Romans and Persians in the year 623 A.D (approx). The Romans beat the Persians. In the Same year (624 .A.D.) there was a battle at the field of Badr between the attacking forces of Makkah and the defending forces of Madinah Muslims. The 313 Muslims beat the 1000 strong army of the Arab pagans of Makkah. Many pagans were killed and many taken prisnors.

So according to the verses, that Day did the Believers rejoice, with double happiness.

The battle of Badr was prophesied by the prophet Isaiah. Please See Isaiah chapter 21, verses 3-17.

**

subhanallah

wasalam

 

[Reuben_J]

i ahve no problem to show you , but you actually don’t speak arabic to realize the beuty of quran from this aspect , so if i want to show the miracle of quran from languge view , i can’t but to describe it , not to mention it , are you understand me

as for example when i tell you background about the skills which arabs had in the time of quran , then i tell you that quran challange those people , so even if you don’t know arabic but you will just realize the situation

The Arabic language, as can be attested to by any of it’s scholars, is a very rich and powerful language. The Bedouin people of the Arabian desert were, in general, illiterate people of very little scientific knowledge. The thing that set them apart, however, was their mastery of poetry. Spending their days as they did in the desert watching their sheep graze got quite boring. They alleviated their boredom by continually composing and refining poetry. They would spend entire years composing and refining their poetry in anticipation of a yearly face-down of the poetic compositions of their peers from all over the country. The fact that they were illiterate forced them to also train themselves in the memorization of works of literature to such an extent that they were able to memorize complete works from a single recitation. Even in matters of leadership, one of the major criteria for selecting the leaders of the various Bedouin tribes was the individual’s prowess in literary composition and memorization.

The Arabian Bedouins took great pains to make their poetry as compact and picturesque as humanly possible, constantly expanding the language along the way. A single word could convey complete pictures. The Qur’an, however, has put even these great efforts to shame. You will notice that when a Muslim translates a verse of the Qur’an he usually does not say “the Qur’an says so and so” but rather “An approximation of the meaning of what the Qur’an says is so and so.” You really need to know the language to comprehend this.

In the English language, we find that the words: “mustang,” “colt,” “mare,” “pony,” “stallion,” “bronco”… etc. all refer to the same thing; a horse. Each one of these words conveys a slightly different mental picture. The mental picture we get when we hear the word “colt” is slightly different than the picture we get if we hear the word “mare.” In a similar manner, the Arabic language progressed in such a fashion as to make it possible to convey such mental pictures in as concise and picturesque a format as possible. It is not at all uncommon to find over three hundred words that refer to the same thing in the Arabic language. Each one of these words gives a slightly different picture than the others.
Many centuries of this constant refinement eventually lead to a very complex and rich vocabulary, and the primary miracle of Muhammad (pbuh), the Qur’an, was in exactly this field

I am so sorry I missed this post. Thanks for your effort. I have read and reread it to get a better picture what you were trying to convey.

I understand that the Quran is unique because Arabic is a beautiful language. The Quran is most beautiful among all poetry and literature found in Arabic. Correct me if I understand wrongly. I would the rationale is fair enough. Anything if it is the best in that particular language should be recognized as unique and superlative. Well it would be a miracle of a sort but because you have not taken other language into consideration it stops short of being the most beautiful book available. Moreover it seems tied to Arabic – the way you explain it as if Arabic is better than other language and it look like the adoration is on Arabic itself.

we believe that the book of Islam itself was made the main miracle of Islam and it has continued to renew it’s challenge to mankind throughout the ages.

What does this mean? Nowadays, the number of people who can appreciate the literary content of the Qur’an has dwindled and this challenge no longer has the same impact it did fourteen hundred years ago.

Recently, a new field of study has opened up to scholars. People nowadays are fascinated with science. This is the age of technology and scientific discovery. For this reason, mankind has begun to study the religious scriptures of mankind from a scientific point of view in order to challenge the scientific claims made in these scriptures.
Many works have been published on this topic

are you have problem to use this field as a proof for the quran ?

Yes, unfortunately I have problem if you try to tie it with science. Nothing that Muslims had tried explaining has convinced me that the Quran is a scientific miracle. The fact that they attempt to explain scientific proof of the Quran makes it even more unconvincing because it is all based on assumption. There is actually no scientific proof in the Quran as far as I see it. Like I said I am not convinced by the explanation your Muslim brethren made on this subject.

My simple conclusion on this is that it is more realistic to say that the Quran is the best literature and poetry in the Arabic language. As far as it is a proven scientific book, it fails to impress me.

God bless.

 

[Reuben_J]

elwill:

your sound isn’t rude for me , you have the rights to ask us what you want

Thanks for your understanding. I don’t want you to think that I am simply trying to score point in argument or that I belittle the Quran. It‘s a fact I don’t believe and don’t agree with it but it does not mean that I cannot find wisdom in trying to know it.

elwill:

Quran ( [041:053] Soon will We show them our Signs in the ( furthest) regions, and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this (quran) is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?

1-The first apparent that man faced in travelling in the space and tried to overcome it was the (dyspnea),and this problem occurs from the rarity of air in the upper layers of the sky (space) and we can notice that the quran foretold about this problem from 1400 years ago and behold that no one was awared by this problem till the scientists discovered that in the present century.

It is this kind of explanation that actually makes me refuse to believe that the Quran is scientifically based. ‘Soon will We show them our Signs in the ( furthest) regions …’, regions mentioned here could not have meant space. Space was unknown at that time and it is utterly absurd for Allah to communicate a message that Mohammad could not understand. Regions would be more likely meant different regions of the earth.

Well the verse itself seems poetic and I suppose you can count that beautiful.

elwill:

#Quran ( [006:125] Those whom God willeth to guide,- He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying,- He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies: thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe.)-
The god said in the previous versus that the one who climb up in the sky his breast is clothed and constricted.

I hope I don’t sound like the other poster, but this is indeed laughable, elwill.

And I have a problem with this verse, “those whom He willeth to leave straying …”

elwill:

2-After the geologicals do their research ,they found that the deepest part on the world is that which lies in the dead sea where the roman empire was defeated,and we can clearly notice that when the quran foretold from 1425 years ago that this place is the deepest place on the earth where romans are defeated.
#Quran ( [030:002] The Roman Empire has been defeated-
[030:003] In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
[030:004] Within a few years. With God is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-)

“this place is the deepest place on the earth …”. Elwill, you cannot be serius on this.

elwill:

Do u know that the person cann`t feel heat except for through some tissues that are found in the SKIN ,so the one can loose his feeling of heat if his skin is destroyed or completely burnt.​

#Quran ( [004:056] Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise. )

OK, fair enough though I think it mean simply the suffering is repetative and never ends. But you got a point and I give you credit for that.

 

[Reuben_J]

elwill:

The scientists who are intersted in the study of seas and oceans have discovered that there are internal waves at the very depth of the oceans and seas in addition to the waves that we see in the ocean and they called this ( deep sea) ( where this waves lie), and this ( deep sea) are characterized by their fully darkness so as that the creatures that live there ( fish) have no eyes, and no person can see anything in this place because of its darkness.
#Quran ( [024:040] Or (the Unbelievers’ state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hands, he can hardly see it! for any to whom God giveth not light, there is no light! )-The quran foretold about this (deep sea) and the waves in it and its fully darkness from 1425 years ago,

Yes it is true that in the deep blue sea it is dark. Was this anything new in the 7th century?

elwill:

#The chemists discovered that the (iron metal) cannt be formed on the earth because its formation temperature ( the temperature that iron need to form the iron metal) is very very high and cannt be found on the earth so the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temerature and then it is sent to earh ( another place as sun).
Quran ( [057:025] We sent aforetime our apostles with Clear Signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of Right and Wrong), that men may stand forth in justice; and We sent down Iron, in which is (material for) mighty war, as well as many benefits for mankind, that God may test who it is that will help, Unseen, Him and His apostles: For God is Full of Strength, Exalted in Might (and able to enforce His Will).

No, no. Bringing this up in fact is to your disadvantage, elwill. It means Allah would send Iron to them. It surely did not mention anything about smelting of any kind. How do you know that the place where Allah stays is hot? LOL. Others will make fun of you when you say thing like that, you know. Heaven definitely is not hot. If it is hot it certainly is not heaven. Do you get the picture? Is it possible Allah rented another place where it IS hot and after he is finished he sent down the iron? LOL

elwill:

This verse marks the 26th occurrence of the word God (Allah) from the beginning of this sura. 26 also happens to be the Atomic Number of iron!

Elwill, you got to be kidding!!! Your original Quran was not numbered. And so was the Bible. Numbering the verses was relatively a much later work by scholars to mark the scripture systematically.

elwill:

#The scientists prooved that the earth and the heavens were one part closed together as the begining of creation and then they cloved asunder into two parts and also they prooved that every living thing is made of water.
#Quran ( [021:030] Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? )

pleeeeze tell me exactly how scientists prove that earth and heaven were joined together? They must be supernatural scientists who can prove heaven.

elwill:

The astronomy prooved that every planet rotates in its cyclic path (its orbit) and he could never leave its own orbit.
#Quran ( [021:033] It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course. )

Well, perhaps it’s possible with this. I just have to be generous for once.

So, what do all these tell me? Actually if you had not tried to tie it with science I would be persuaded to agree with you on some of the verses mentioned. As it is I was preoccupied listening to the funniest explanation. I hope you go through my feedback and see for yourself how ridiculous your explanations are.

This is not to ridicule you or the Quran. Frankly I think the Quran is even better off on its own without you all trying in vain to tie it with scientific proof.

God bless you.

 

[elwill]

Yes it is true that in the deep blue sea it is dark. Was this anything new in the 7th century?

was billow topped by billow were known either ?

anyway , Professor Dorja Rao, he is a specialist in Marine Geology confirmed that scientists now know darkness by means of submarines that have enabled them to dive into the depths of the ocean, where human beings are not able to dive unaided for more than twenty to thirty meters. Those who dive for pearls do so in shallow waters and can not dive any deeper than this. Human beings can not survive in the deep dark part of the oceans, such as at a depth of 200 meters. But this verse speaks about a phenomenon found in very deep oceans.

beside . the statement of Allah about the darkness in a vast deep sea does not refer to just any sea, because not every sea can be described as having accumulated darkness layered one over another.

No, no. Bringing this up in fact is to your disadvantage, elwill. It means Allah would send Iron to them. It surely did not mention anything about smelting of any kind. How do you know that the place where Allah stays is hot? LOL. Others will make fun of you when you say thing like that, you know. Heaven definitely is not hot. If it is hot it certainly is not heaven. Do you get the picture? Is it possible Allah rented another place where it IS hot and after he is finished he sent down the iron? LOL

what are you saying ! , i didn’t say that place where allah satys is hot , nor did i said that heavin is hot

all what i said that scientifically the iron metal must be formed on another place that have very high temperature and then it is sent to earth
ad quran said the allah sent down the iron to the earth . that’s all

Elwill, you got to be kidding!!! Your original Quran was not numbered. And so was the Bible. Numbering the verses was relatively a much later work by scholars to mark the scripture systematically.

i’m sorry to tell you that actually quran was numbered and ordered by the prophet before his death

pleeeeze tell me exactly how scientists prove that earth and heaven were joined together? They must be supernatural scientists who can prove heaven.

make your research about big bang theory

 

[dzheremi]

I understand that the Quran is unique because Arabic is a beautiful language. The Quran is most beautiful among all poetry and literature found in Arabic. Correct me if I understand wrongly. I would the rationale is fair enough. Anything if it is the best in that particular language should be recognized as unique and superlative. Well it would be a miracle of a sort but because you have not taken other language into consideration it stops short of being the most beautiful book available. Moreover it seems tied to Arabic – the way you explain it as if Arabic is better than other language and it look like the adoration is on Arabic itself.

The Qur’an is a tool of Arab cultural and linguistic dominance over non-Arab Muslims. The tension created by this fact has always existed since the Muslims first came into non-Arab lands, even as the Arabs try to deny it by pointing to the last sermon of Muhammad where he supposedly talks about the equality of the non-Arab and the Arab. If this were so, why the exhortation of the “clear Arabic language” of the Qur’an? Why do Muslims then constantly assert that the Qur’an can only be properly understood (including its miraculous nature, too?) in Arabic? They say God is an Arabic-speaker! They fetishize the Arabic language and culture, placing it above others by virtue of it being the language of the Qur’an, and hence of God. This is why they do not understand when we tell them that there is no problem that the Bible was written in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew instead of in one “original language” as their epistemology demands of sacred scripture.

As Algerian Kabyle secularist martyr and singer Matoub Lounes put it in his song “Allah Wakbar” (God is Great):

“Ta’arabt d awal n Rebbi! Dg-ges tamusni machchi am tigad nniden; Fella-s ma tebbwded s ifri - Xas grireb ghuli, D Muhemmed a k-id-iselken”

In English: “Arabic is the language of God, incomparable to any other. For it, you jump into the abyss - Go on, into the dark! Muhammad will come to your rescue.”

Further reading (I’ve posted this before, but it is still highly recommended to anyone who entertains Arab-supremacist claims to a great civilization, whether via the Qur’an or anything else): “What Arab Civilization?” by Peter BetBasoo

 

[jakasaki]

Further reading (I’ve posted this before, but it is still highly recommended to anyone who entertains Arab-supremacist claims to a great civilization, whether via the Qur’an or anything else): “What Arab Civilization?” by Peter BetBasoo

Hi -

Can you please fix your “Arab” link attachment - the site is not coming up…

Thanks!

 

[SSTeacher]

Hi Reuben,

SSTeacher;5491404:

When I first came seriously to read the Bible (about nine years ago) I was surprised to find in it sayings that were familiar to me, such as:

There’s nothing new under the sun;

The apple of your eye;
Escaped with only the skin of my teeth;
A drop in a bucket;
Don’t let the sun go down while you’re still angry;
We brought nothing into the world and we can take nothing out of it;
How the mighty have fallen;
A wolf in sheep’s clothing;
The writing is on the wall.

How curious to find so late in life that these sayings were in the Bible.Mick, I was thinking if you could elaborate on the phrases that I highlighted. What you think of them and what they mean, that kind of things. I thought maybe I could hear some sharing and possibly (name removed by moderator)ut from you, your remark notwithstanding, “ …How curious to find so late in life that these sayings were in the Bible.”

My conversion to Evangelical Christianity just as I reached my half–century in the year 2000 was for me and for those around me a life–altering experience. It was a slow process and, naturally enough, it involved a gradual ever–changing shift in my perspective. But as I look back and reflect upon the vivid contrast between the way I used to look at life and the way I now perceive it to be I have to acknowledge a huge difference. I was very cynical. According to the statistics (so I’ve been told) the older one gets the less likelihood there is of a dramatic alteration to one’s worldview because as we get older we generally prefer to stick with what is familiar and merely rearrange our prejudices from time to time. But because of my conversion that pattern didn’t impose itself in my case and that’s at least curious. I mean, why me?

Part of that gradual conversion experience for me was to be introduced to the Bible. When I read the Bible (of 66 books, naturally ) for the first time I started at Genesis 1:1 intending to go all the way through to the final Amen at the end of the Book of the Revelation. But that proved to be an unwise strategy. I had to give up in total confusion around the Second Book of Chronicles. Only after I was taught that in order to understand the Bible one must first learn how the Bible is put together was I able to make any sense of the Good Book. And as I became familiar with the contents of the Bible I came across phrases that I’d heard before and had even used myself – and I came to realize that I’d done this without knowing that they’d been lifted from the Bible. So when I used the word “curious” I had in mind my own subjective impressions during my gradual conversion from somewhere between agnosticism and deism to Evangelical Christianity. Curious. Indeed, not only curious but perhaps even curiouser and curiouser.

Anyway, on to the ones you highlighted.

There’s nothing new under the sun.

This occurs in the Book of Ecclesiastes, which, in the 66–book Bible, is the penultimate Wisdom Book. Its title gives no indication of its content so it came as a complete surprise to me to discover that the writer of Ecclesiastes was just as cynical about life as I was. Then, when I was told that the writer was probably King Solomon, I was even more surprised. Wasn’t he the wise guy? I mean, there was that well–known simile familiar to everybody: As wise as Solomon. Well, now, it seemed to me that if when King Solomon lived there was nothing new under the sun i.e. nothing new in life and he’d even felt prompted to record his thoughts on the subject then perhaps my own cynicism might fall away and I might become wise like King Solomon. And my cynicism did indeed gradually fall away. But I’m still waiting for the wisdom part to kick in.

** Escaped with only the skin of my teeth.**

This occurs in the Book of Job, which, in the 66–book Bible, is the first Wisdom Book. And, of course, when I came to the Book of Job I recalled that well–known simile familiar to everybody: As patient as Job. I have to say that I didn’t think Job was very patient. It seemed to me that he did quite a lot of moaning and groaning and that’s a trait not usually associated with patience. Still, he did have some very annoying friends. I suppose he persevered. That’s just about the same thing. One can persevere and still have a good old moan without anybody suggesting that one is not trying to persevere. The curious phrase “escaped with only the skin of my teeth,” (some people say by the skin of my teeth) although familiar was one I’d never really thought about. And, then, when I thought about it, it just seemed weird!

** How the mighty have fallen!**

In the 66–book Bible, this occurs at the beginning of the second book of Samuel, which is the fifth history book. King David speaks these words lamenting the death of his friend, Jonathan – although Saul who had also died would have been in King David’s thoughts as well since Saul was the Lord’s anointed. It’s a dramatic turn of phrase. It’s perhaps seen in print rather more than heard spoken. Nevertheless, I think I might look for an opportunity to use it in conversation in the near future. People hearing me say it might think that I’m wise.

Cordially,
Mick

 

[dzheremi]

Hi -

Can you please fix your “Arab” link attachment - the site is not coming up…

Thanks!

Hmmm. I don’t know what to tell you. It comes up immediately for me from the given link (at ninevehsoft.com - Assyrian software company), but here it is from a different Assyrian site, www.christiansofiraq.com: “What Arab Civilization?”

Hopefully this one will work for you!