Bible - Qur'an Comparison

[planten]

Correction… The tradition of your scholars is and have always been divided…your earliest scholars say it was Isaac…

 

[planten]

**Another mistake (or oversight) of the bible writers was when Allah offered all the visible land to Abraham. Abraham said “What shall I do with the land when you have not given me any son who could inherit…” These are not the exact words of the bible but they carry the meaning.

At that time Abaraham had no son. Ishamel was born after that as per prayer of Abraham for a son. That was goodness of Sarai to give Hagar as a wife to Abraham because she could not bear any child.

The incident of the sacrifice took place after Ishmael was born and it happened in Arabia near the place now called Makkah. Allah was pleased with Abraham and offered him another son Issac. That is the real Muslim version of this incident of sacrifice, believe it or not.**.

 

[Sophie]

The Qur’an is a plagurism of the bible. The bible is a plagurism of Persian (New Testament) and Babylonian (Old Testament) belief systems. All religions steal many of their ideas from other religions.

 

[Verisimilitude]

That is the real Muslim version of this incident of sacrifice, believe it or not..

I do not. Abraham never went so far south to Arabia particularly after Isaac was born. The place Hagar and Ishmael found water after being dismissed by Sarah and Abraham was far to the north. Abraham did not build the kabba or dig the well in mecca. Total fantasy.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Angelos, it is absolutely a waste of my time to continue to read and reply to your posts when you do not pay me the same courtesy. It was I who asked you who was given the Injeel.

You keep calling my posts “logical fallicies” when the truth is that you don’t even read them and reply to something else! You quote back something that I didn’t even say and then deconstruct it. I can’t really compete with your imagination I guess so I’m not even going to try.

Are the blind equal to the seeing?

Let me tell you a story… there was a man who came into a cave to a people who lived there. He tried to tell them that there was a world outside, a world with light, and color, with the sun and sky, trees, etc. And the people thought he was crazy, for they lived in the dark. And so the grabbed him and started to feel his head, and then thought Oh! This is the problem, there is this pressure in his brain because of these bulging things in his head… so they poked his eyes out.

 

[Booklover]

Although im galavanting around europe at the moment, i had a niggling urge to get on here… and i know why…
welcome back Angelos and InJesus!
Its good to see you are back hard at work defending the true faith!
God bless you both…
:grouphug:

Booklover, :hug3:
Thats a special one for you my friend!

A big hug for you as well Ellen! :hug3: Hope you’re having lots of fun!

A big welcome back for InJesus as well! :hug3:

Now all we need is for Montalban and Rodrigo to come back and we’ll have quite a crew of defenders of the faith! :grouphug:

Vickie

 

[Lapell]

Lapell–I starkly disagree with your outlook on the world. And I think it might be better if we just leave it there–we strongly disagree on fundamental principles. Not to argue, not to say one of us is superior to the other because only God knows. But I think your worldview is just so different from mine that I cannot clearly explain myself. Please forgive me. I don’t mean to offend you or anyone else here, and I think that it might be better if we can gently part and avoid a confrontation.

Sister Amy! What I said had nothing to do with superiority! What I meant was, the whole Bible is authoritative as the true Word of God, not just the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospels! If Muhammad himself stated that only these parts of the Bible are authoritative as the Word of God, then he would be in the wrong, absolutely! If he didn’t, then there is no such problem. But, whoever then after him would state such a thing would be absolutely in the wrong and would be guilty of false testimony, a very serious one! It would be a breach of one of the Ten Commandments, and among the ones that are asked of all mankind, not just the Jews and the Christians.
It may have an effect on the salvation of souls, don’t you see? It’s not a light matter, sister Amy, I’m very serious here.

 

[Lapell]

Listen, sister Amy, I like your respect for us, but when it comes to matters involving the One true God, we should be true. If Muslims reject what God Himself doesn’t, can’t you see the implications? Do you want international brotherhood at the expense of the lives of the souls? I don’t mind international brotherhood myself, but I don’t want to reject my share in Heaven for it, I want international brotherhood in a way that will include Heaven granted to us by God. Anything away from God is not worth it and is false. I don’t want it!

 

[Lapell]

And it’s not the right answer. I mean, you totally missed the point. I will say it again. The Injeel was given to Jesus. Not to the Jews, but to Jesus. I was that specific and yet you couldn’t answer it. According to the Qur’an, the Injeel was given to Jesus.

(I don’t have my own computer, and I wasn’t working on the weekend, as usual, which is why I didn’t participate in the discussion then, so forgive me if I seem so late in my replies…)
Actually, you kinda miss the point about the Injeel. Even though Muhammad said it was given to Jesus, I’m afraid he missed the point, too, though he was close… Jesus himself is the Injeel! Yes, sister! He is, and He is the Injeel who came among the Jews to bring them this Injeel, but most rejected him. But whoever accepts him and follows him, whether Jew or non-Jew, is the one who receives the Injeel. That’s whom the Injeel was meant to!

 

[inJESUS]

Sister Amy! What I said had nothing to do with superiority! What I meant was, the whole Bible is authoritative as the true Word of God, not just the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospels!

i see Muhammad quotes Isaiah in his hadith as the Torah…seems to me that Muhammad, at least, included other books under “Torah”…and we read him quoting Matthew, John and Paul in his hadith as well…these are 3 injeels…or at least 2 with Paul’s letters…so whatever Torah and Injeel mean, we read Isaiah as Torah and we read paragraphs from at least 3 sources of the injeel…in addition to the apocrypha of course so it seems the Injeel to Muhammad is not one single book written by Jesus since the apocrypha were written by non-disciples long time after the death of the disciples…the injeel, as we can all see, is what Muhammad collected from here and there…and the Torah includes more than Moses.

 

[inJESUS]

these people were among your best scholars, including the sahaba of Muhammad…on what basis do you assume they did not know what they were talking about?

The real thing was that Quran did not mention the name of Ishmael. and also did not say that it was Issac. The reason: It was good of the Quran not to oppose the bible directly or to ridicule it, so as not to start a controversy about it.

this argument doesn’t hold water because the Quran opposes the Bible in too many places already…and since Muhammad tried many times to correct what he thought is wrong, it’d be strange for him not to correct such a huge mistake…not to add that neither Jesus nor any of the disciples corrected this “mistake” but repeated it as God’s Word…

The real thing is that the writers of the bible did not consider the matter properly and inserted the name of Issac in a hurry in the bible without considering many thing (or anything).

in a hurry? why is that?

The fact is thatIssac was not even born when the incident of sacrifice took place.

Issac had never been the only son. He was not the first born. To dismiss Ishmael, the chiristians have tried to say that Ishmael was not a legitimate son of Abraham. That is their highhanded stand. So we as Muslims will prove from the bible and the Quran that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed.

all these have been answered from the Bible’s point of view so at least to the Bible all your arguments do not hold water because they are not based on neither the Bible explanation nor the culture of that time but are based on a misunderstanding of both Bible language use and culture…

I personal found some christians saying that Arabs are not the children of Ishamel. You see such bad tactics from the church. Can they not stand up with truth?

did the church say this? and in what way is he the father of the Arabs if Arabs existed before him and he learnt Arabic as an adolescent?

Any one can read the chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 to verse 112 andhe will find out that Issac was not even born when Allah tested Abraham about his dearest thing, i.e. son of old age.

your scholars surely read it and came to different conclusion…so no matter what arguments you give (your scholars already adressed them and said it was Isaac), the point is that the Quran is not clear about this issue and hence it is futile to use the mantra corruption here as well.

 

[Angelos]

** Yes, some Muslim scholars went to that idea that it was Issac who was sacrificed. But that was incorrect idea. That was due to lack of investigation. The real thing was that Quran did not mention the name of Ishmael. and also did not say that it was Issac. The reason: It was good of the Quran not to oppose the bible directly or to ridicule it, so as not to start a controversy about it.**

Therefore, it is totally inconsistent of the Koran to deny Jesus’ crucifixion, to claim that it was Pharaoh’s wife - rather than his daughter - who had the idea of adopting baby Moses, to claim that one of Noah’s sons died in the deluge… In your words, it was bad of the Koran to oppose the Bible directly and to start a controversy against it only when Abraham’s sons were not in question! Very interesting indeed!
planten;3435842:

The real thing is that the writers of the bible did not consider the matter properly and inserted the name of Issac in a hurry in the bible without considering many thing (or anything). The fact is thatIssac was not even born when the incident of sacrifice took place.

The real thing is that Muslim scholars did not consider the matter properly and relagated the issue to nationalist arguments while struggling to replace Isaac with Ishmael in their fantasies. The fact is that God did not test Abraham until Isaac’s birth.

Issac had never been the only son. He was not the first born. To dismiss Ishmael, the chiristians have tried to say that Ishmael was not a legitimate son of Abraham. That is their highhanded stand. So we as Muslims will prove from the bible and the Quran that it was Ishmael who was sacrificed.

According to the data in the Bible, Isaac WAS the only son Abraham had when God tested Abraham’s faith, Ishmael being thrown out by Abraham himself right after Isaac’s birth. God waited for Isaac’s birth because Isaac was more precious in God’s and Abraham’s sight since he was the son of the divine promise and a miraculous birth unlike Ishmael, who was born of natural means. God tested Sarah through Ishmael as He tested Abraham through Isaac!

I personal found some christians saying that Arabs are not the children of Ishamel. You see such bad tactics from the church. Can they not stand up with truth?

Did those Christians also tell you that the Church taught and asked them to pronounce the statement in question?

Any one can read the chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 to verse 112 andhe will find out that Issac was not even born when Allah tested Abraham about his dearest thing, i.e. son of old age. (The mistake of the bible writers is clear when they say “your only son”).

The birth of Issac was due to the offering of Ishmael as a sacrifice. Had Ishmael not been offered in the way of Allah, Issac may not have been born at all. We will present more proof about this all important incident later.

Anyone can read chapter 37(83-112) and chapter 19 (41-49) comparatively to find out that Mohammad’s scribes referred to Isaac as the first-born son, mistaking Jacob for Abraham’s second son! Actually, that mistake occupied a place in the Koran until someone realized and corrected it by replacing Isaac with Jacob and Ishmael with Isaac in early Medina period (14th chapter).

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, it is absolutely a waste of my time to continue to read and reply to your posts when you do not pay me the same courtesy. It was I who asked you who was given the Injeel.

You keep calling my posts “logical fallicies” when the truth is that you don’t even read them and reply to something else! You quote back something that I didn’t even say and then deconstruct it. I can’t really compete with your imagination I guess so I’m not even going to try.

Are the blind equal to the seeing?

Let me tell you a story… there was a man who came into a cave to a people who lived there. He tried to tell them that there was a world outside, a world with light, and color, with the sun and sky, trees, etc. And the people thought he was crazy, for they lived in the dark. And so the grabbed him and started to feel his head, and then thought Oh! This is the problem, there is this pressure in his brain because of these bulging things in his head… so they poked his eyes out.

Dear Sister Amy,

If you want to stop discussing with me, I respect your decision with courtesy.

I m afraid you r becoming unfair to me while saying that I do not even read your posts.

You wrote: “You quote back something that I didn’t even say and then deconstruct it. I can’t really compete with your imagination I guess so I’m not even going to try.” There is nothing else I can add to this excellent statement since it perfectly expresses how I feel while discussing with you.

However, I love you no matter how blindly you defend your new faith. :hug1:

This is my response to your story:

There was a man who climbed a tree and tried to cut off a branch of it. Since the branch the heedless man sat on was the same as the one he cut off, he eventually fell and hurt himself. However, he could find no one to blame for his fall.

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Lapell, there is one of the 10 Commandments which I think is of even greater concern, which we must heed.

And that is the FIRST commandment.

And I think anyone who commands to anything else is the one who is guilty of false testimony.

If you want, Lapell, I would like to talk to you in private (like chat) so that we can better explain ourselves. If you agree you can PM me and I will give you some contact information.

 

[Lapell]

inJESUS;3434398:

** Yes, some Muslim scholars went to that idea that it was Issac who was sacrificed. But that was incorrect idea. That was due to lack of investigation. The real thing was that Quran did not mention the name of Ishmael. and also did not say that it was Issac. The reason: It was good of the Quran not to oppose the bible directly or to ridicule it, so as not to start a controversy about it.

The real thing is that the writers of the bible did not consider the matter properly and inserted the name of Issac in a hurry in the bible without considering many thing (or anything).

Issac had never been the only son. (The mistake of the bible writers is clear when they say “your only son”).

The birth of Issac was due to the offering of Ishmael as a sacrifice. Had Ishmael not been offered in the way of Allah, Issac may not have been born at all. We will present more proof about this all important incident later.**

So you have a text even older than the Biblical older manuscripts available telling of Ishmael being the one son sacrificed?

 

[Lapell]

i see Muhammad quotes Isaiah in his hadith as the Torah…seems to me that Muhammad, at least, included other books under “Torah”…and we read him quoting Matthew, John and Paul in his hadith as well…these are 3 injeels…or at least 2 with Paul’s letters…so whatever Torah and Injeel mean, we read Isaiah as Torah and we read paragraphs from at least 3 sources of the injeel…in addition to the apocrypha of course so it seems the Injeel to Muhammad is not one single book written by Jesus since the apocrypha were written by non-disciples long time after the death of the disciples…the injeel, as we can all see, is what Muhammad collected from here and there…and the Torah includes more than Moses.

 

[Lapell]

Lapell, there is one of the 10 Commandments which I think is of even greater concern, which we must heed.

And that is the FIRST commandment.

And I think anyone who commands to anything else is the one who is guilty of false testimony.

If you want, Lapell, I would like to talk to you in private (like chat) so that we can better explain ourselves. If you agree you can PM me and I will give you some contact information.

Yes, the FIRST commandment is foremost, but it includes ALL commandments. Because God is the Lord, we shall not bear false testimony.
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by PM? I am not really a geek when it comes to this medium and some of the abbreviations.
I don’t mind if you want to “chat” with me more privately. Actually, I like your openness… maybe to a certain extent.
If you want to discuss doctrines of the faith, either Muslim or Christian Catholic, then it is sure to put us in danger of fighting, you know… I do respect and like you a lot!

 

[Lapell]

Listen, sister Amy, I like your respect for us, but when it comes to matters involving the One true God, we should be true. If Muslims reject what God Himself doesn’t, can’t you see the implications? Do you want international brotherhood at the expense of the lives of the souls? I don’t mind international brotherhood myself, but I don’t want to reject my share in Heaven for it, I want international brotherhood in a way that will include Heaven granted to us by God. Anything away from God is not worth it and is false. I don’t want it!

In the Gospel, it is said that those who are faithful in some small matters will be trusted in much greater ones, and that those who are not trustworthy in some small matters won’t be trusted in much greater ones…

 

[Lapell]

Sister Amy, do you know for a fact which books of the Bible were included in what Muslims call “the Torah”, the “Psalms” and the “Injeel”? If inJESUS or anybody else has the answer, I will welcome it from them as well…

 

[Lapell]

these people were among your best scholars, including the sahaba of Muhammad…on what basis do you assume they did not know what they were talking about?
this argument doesn’t hold water because the Quran opposes the Bible in too many places already…and since Muhammad tried many times to correct what he thought is wrong, it’d be strange for him not to correct such a huge mistake…not to add that neither Jesus nor any of the disciples corrected this “mistake” but repeated it as God’s Word…

I certainly wish your points will be answered not evasively but properly.