Bible - Qur'an Comparison

[Booklover]

Ive met some muslims who believe that Jinns eat bones and left over food. And that they also possess people. And that they have entire cities and communities somewhere here on earth. What do you think about jinns?

See here.

Here is a compilation of a few unique features of Islamic jinns:
Jinns eat bones and animal dung; Muhammad met a delegation of jinns in the city of Nasibin…(Sahih Bukhari, 5.58.200)
A deputation of jinns informed Muhammad that they ate bones, dung and charcoal…(Sunaan Abu Dawud, 1.1.0039)
Jinns eat bones and dung…(Mishkat. 1.186)
Muhammad caught a jinn… (Sahih Bukhari, 4.55.634)
While Muhammad was at pray at Nakhlah a company of Jinns passed by. They were seven Jinns from Nasibin… (Lings. p.99)
Iraq is a place of rebellious jinns and disease with no cure…(Malik’s Muwatta, 54.11.30)

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ive met some muslims who believe that Jinns eat bones and left over food.

That belief is based on a hadith.

And that they also possess people.

This might also be based on hadith but I’m not sure. Isn’t there a story of someone being possessed by demons in the NT? I thought this would be a Christian belief as well. Here’s one: Matthew 8:28-34. So Christians I would imagine have a similar belief.

And that they have entire cities and communities somewhere here on earth.

Why not?

What do you think about jinns?

One of my favorite Bible verses is this one, James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Here’s an ayah from the Qur’an: 72:26 “He [that is, my Lord] (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-”

Surah 72 is titled ‘Al-Jinn’ (the Jinn) and talks about the Jinn, a saying of some Jinn who listened to the Qur’an.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Isn’t there a story of someone being possessed by demons in the NT?

yes there is. and christians say devils can possess people because they are made of spirit. are jinns spirits or physical energy (smokeless fire)?

Why not?

because we humans have pretty much mapped or covered the entire surface of the planet. and there is not a single evidence of anything outside the ordinary. unless jinns live deep underground, and that they hardly multiply enough to be detected.

One of my favorite Bible verses is this one, James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Here’s an ayah from the Qur’an: 72:26 “He [that is, my Lord] (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-”

Surah 72 is titled ‘Al-Jinn’ (the Jinn) and talks about the Jinn, a saying of some Jinn who listened to the Qur’an.

I would like to know what you believe about their existence. Are they spirit? Do they eat? Where do they live? How many are there? Do they interact with us?

 

[Sister_Amy]

AgnosTheist:

I would like to know what you believe about their existence. Are they spirit? Do they eat? Where do they live? How many are there? Do they interact with us?

I don’t mean to be dismissive of the question. I haven’t studied jinn–it’s not a topic that particularly interests me, so I am ignorant even the extent of Islamic knowledge and opinion on jinn.

I believe that jinn exist, that Satan is a jinn, that they are made from smokeless fire, that some are good and some are bad, and that I can’t see them.

I can’t really answer your questions with anything other than “I don’t know.” So I say it’s knowledge of the unseen–what is known is little in the first place, and I don’t even know what is known!

So please forgive me… I just don’t know.

 

[AgnosTheist]

^ no problemo.

 

[Angelos]

32:23 24
Notice the portion I bolded. Don’t be in doubt that he received it–God says he revealed it to Moses, that Moses received it. That is what Muslims believe. The Children of Israel were also shown signs or proofs that Moses was a prophet from God. Just a note: the word revelations–I looked this up in the Arabic and the word is “ayaatinaa” which means “Our Signs.” The word “ayaat” is the same word used for what some less-informed non-Muslims call “verses” in the Qur’an. Verses is incorrect, the word means signs. This passage also talks about the Children of Israel being sent a line of prophets to rule them–i.e., “leaders who guided by Our command.”

You are distorting the Koran once more! That bolded portion is actually addressed to Mohammad, not to Jews. Allah is saying to Mohammad that he will receive the revelation as Moses did. Besides, the word Scripture refers not to signs given to Jews through Moses, but the Torah. After every defeat, you come up with something new and start using new tactics to distract me from the central issue. Read the context better to see that the revelation is the Scripture, not a few miracles.

You mean God sent Jews prophets after they believed in the signs? Who were they shown those signs by then? Their being steadfast and firm in faith implies that they did not alter the message that was given them.

Once again, this passage proves my point.

It proves my point too. The part I bolded in that verse is somehow modified by you! The reason for my quoting that verse was the sentence emphasizing the Jews inherited the Scripture. They inherited means they did not lose or destroy the original scripture, since it was preserved.

Same thing. Inherit the scripture means it was written down–they kept it (that is, the TORAH) in written form. Not surprising.

Very weak argument indeed! Inheritance entails preservation. When you inherit a book, it comes to use in preserved form with no change or loss. You mean God accidentally caused Israelites to inherit the wrong or distorted Scripture? They inherited the Torah means they could get the original text with no change in form and content.

to be continued…

 

[Angelos]

You shouldn’t have quoted this one, it shows you don’t know what you’re talking–for this is about Muslims. And “read” is not a good translation of yatloona–rehearse or recite is better. And it says kitab Allah–the book of Allah. It’s talking quite obviously about the Qur’an. It doesn’t say “establish worship” but in fact says establish salaat which is the ritual prayer of Muslims. So in fact it’s not about Jews at all but about Muslims, and the Qur’an.

Resorting to word play again? People could recite the Koran - I mean the full book of Allah - before it had been worked into a book? This chapter dates back to the Mecca period! It was impossible for Muslims to recite the Koran by then since the Koran was compiled after Mohammad’s death! More, it is not altogether impossible for this verse to refer to non-Muslims for a couple of reasons.

First, the word yatloona is also used in the Koran with regard to Christians and Jews, not being confined to Muslims or Koran as you suggest:

2: 113. And the Jews say the Christians follow nothing (true), and the Christians say the Jews follow nothing (true); yet both are readers of the Scripture.

Second, there is another Koran verse that talks of some people of the book reciting the revelations. The phrases used to define non-Muslims in the following verse is almost identical with the phrases used in 29: 35.

3: 113-114. They are not all alike. Of the People of the Scripture there is a staunch community who recite the revelations of Allah in the night season, **falling prostrate **(before Him). They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one with another in good works. These are of the righteous.

Apparently, these are not Muslims, but Jews and/or Christians.

I almost feel bad for you–it’s like you lifted ayaat from the book thanks to a search engine without bothering to even read the context. I feel bad for embarassing you. This verse is again related to Muslims–the Jews were saying God didn’t reveal to a human (that is, Muhammad!). And the response is that Muhammad is to tell them that Moses had a book revealed from God. The rest of it even implies that Jews don’t have or know the full scripture (hide much) that was given to Moses.

It is rather embarrassing for you not to know what the Koran verse says about Torah and ask me to consult a Tafsir.

It’s pretty obvious that the Qur’an isn’t saying that what the Jews had was preserved, that it was as pristine as the revelation to Moses. Just that God revealed to Moses, and the Jews have some of it. You can consult a common tafsir of this ayah here.

Let’s read the verse once more:

6: 91. And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it) ? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

It is obvious in this verse that the pronoun used for the so-called revelation to Moses and the Torah the Jews of Mohammad’s time possess is the same: The Jews have put on parchments no other text than the one revealed to Moses. Although it is true that the verse in question blames Jews for hiding some parts of the revelation, it still contends that it is the same preserved revelation received by Moses.

 

[Angelos]

Specifically this part is interesting: (which you have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much).) means, you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, "this is from Allah,’’ meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.

This is really a very interesting part indeed since it contradicts and repudiates the Koran verse that implies the preservation of the original Torah by Jews. It only illustrates how Islamic prejudice and aversion to the Bible result in the misinterpretation of the Islamic scripture.

Henceforth I advise you against imposing your own interpretations on the Qur’an and this search-engine quoting. Use the Qur’an if you wish but you can’t just pull willy nilly and ignore the context.

Henceforth I advise you against imposing some Muslim scholar’s intentional misinterpretations and additions on the Koran and this useless tafsir quoting. Use the Koran if you wish, but you cannot just play on words and ignore the context.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hi Angelos… thanks for being so diligent in your replies!

I’ll try to avoid quoting when possible to save space and reply as concisely as possible.

1. Inheriting the scripture–that does not imply preservation. The Qur’an says in other places that it was distorted. Preservation is in 3 ways btw–the actual words, the meanings of the words, and the language. Muslims do not have to believe that previous scripture was preserved. And they don’t. This is the traditional Islamic opinion based on the Qur’an.

You mean God sent Jews prophets after they believed in the signs?

Yes, precisely! Moses was sent before, and Aaron. But the Jews were sent prophets throughout their history (I mean, read the OT (wink)), and the “signs” can mean the Torah, and it can mean the plagues in Egypt, the miracles in the desert, and so on.

Who were they shown those signs by then?

God. Like the pillar of fire, maybe? Parting the Red Sea. These signs… the power of God, Moses being the prophet. I’m talking about subsequent prophets.

Their being steadfast and firm in faith implies that they did not alter the message that was given them.

This is contradictory to the Qur’an in many places–it is clear that some were steadfast and others weren’t–some disbelieved, changed the writings, disobeyed God’s command. The Qur’an is full of that… I mean, just read Al-Baqara and it’s full of that, even the first juz. Yes, some were steadfast. Not all.

People could recite the Koran - I mean the full book of Allah - before it had been worked into a book?

Yes of course–it was RECITED from the very beginning. This doesn’t imply the whole thing, but the Qur’an was called the Book of Allah amid revelation and it was recited daily of course!! Just like Muslims now recite it daily. Compilation of the Qur’an wasn’t necessary for it to be recited, as I say again, it was recited from the beginning. Iqraa’ bismi rabbik allathee khalaq! (And what you said is correct, other peoples could recite/read their scriptures, but that particular ayah is about the Qur’an.)

This is really a very interesting part indeed since it contradicts and repudiates the Koran verse that implies the preservation of the original Torah by Jews. It only illustrates how Islamic prejudice and aversion to the Bible result in the misinterpretation of the Islamic scripture.

In fact it is only you who contradicts the Qur’an. The conclusion you’re trying so hard to draw is simply false. I’m sorry, but I’m trying the best I can to show you what the Qur’an says and means and your own argument is nothing but deceit to the readers–like poor Vickie who believes you and thinks that the Qur’an depends upon the Bible. The Qur’an contradicts it in many places which should by now have washed away every last ounce of doubt you have in assertions.

Peace and love.

 

[Angelos]

Hi Angelos… thanks for being so diligent in your replies!

I’ll try to avoid quoting when possible to save space and reply as concisely as possible.

1. Inheriting the scripture–that does not imply preservation. The Qur’an says in other places that it was distorted. Preservation is in 3 ways btw–the actual words, the meanings of the words, and the language. Muslims do not have to believe that previous scripture was preserved. And they don’t. This is the traditional Islamic opinion based on the Qur’an.

My pleasure indeed! The Koran contradicts itself if it says “the Bible is corrupted” in other places. BTW I really wonder why you Muslims fail to support your assertions through the chapters/verses of the Mecca period! All of the quotes you post (disregarding their context) uncannily belong to a chapter of the Medina period.

I m in shock now: While boasting of causing the Jews to inherit the Torah, Allah is referring to the inheritance of a corrupted version then! Well, maybe this is all he can do. No comments on his empty conceits!

This is contradictory to the Qur’an in many places–it is clear that some were steadfast and others weren’t–some disbelieved, changed the writings, disobeyed God’s command. The Qur’an is full of that… I mean, just read Al-Baqara and it’s full of that, even the first juz. Yes, some were steadfast. Not all.

It is again the chapters of Medina that criticize Jews and Christians! We know the reason though: they did not believe in Mohammad and his book and incurred his hostility and hatred. Allah changing sides after Mohammad’s migration: He asks Mohammad to consult Jews and their Scripture in Mecca(10: 94). However, in Medina he realizes his mistake and marks most of the Jews as dishonest people.

1. Yes of course–it was RECITED from the very beginning. This doesn’t imply the whole thing, but the Qur’an was called the Book of Allah amid revelation and it was recited daily of course!! Just like Muslims now recite it daily. Compilation of the Qur’an wasn’t necessary for it to be recited, as I say again, it was recited from the beginning. Iqraa’ bismi rabbik allathee khalaq! (And what you said is correct, other peoples could recite/read their scriptures, but that particular ayah is about the Qur’an.)

What makes you think so? How can you be so sure that it does not talk about non-Muslims? What about the ayah 3: 113-114? Non-Muslims reciting the Scripture of Allah?

1. In fact it is only you who contradicts the Qur’an. The conclusion you’re trying so hard to draw is simply false. I’m sorry, but I’m trying the best I can to show you what the Qur’an says and means and your own argument is nothing but deceit to the readers–like poor Vickie who believes you and thinks that the Qur’an depends upon the Bible. The Qur’an contradicts it in many places which should by now have washed away every last ounce of doubt you have in assertions.

Peace and love.

What Vickie and other people here can see through your posts is how Muslims twist certain verses of their scripture to justify themselves and compel the Koran to support their distortion theories. How deceitful and pathetic indeed! Thanks to this forum, I have reached the knowledge that Muslims desperately need biblical corruption for the validity of their so-called divine revelation.

I shall always pray that Allah save you from the greatest dilemma: Believing in the former revelations because they supposedly support the Koran and denying the former revelations’ authenticity because they overtly contradict the Koran. (If only Mohammad’s scribes had been more careful while making their Allah confirm the other Scriptures that Jews and Christians had with them!)

Peace,
ANgelos N.B.

 

[Sister_Amy]

It’s not I who have distorted anything. But I see now the difference in what I am actually saying and what you think I’m arguing.

Do I say that the Bible is corrupted? Period, end of statement? No, in fact that’s not what I’m claiming–nor what I have ever claimed. What Muslims believe, and I’ll state it as simply as possible, is this:

God revealed messages to previous prophets–among them Moses, David, and Jesus.

Those scriptures are known by Christians and Jews.

God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad–the last and final message to mankind.

Anything in existing scriptures which agrees with the Qur’an, Muslims believe is authentic–part of the original revelation, and they accept it.

Anything in existing scriptures which does not agree with the Qur’an, Muslims reject as either being a distortion, an outright lie, or something that has been abrogated.

Pretty simple. You can stop arguing now.

 

[Angelos]

It’s not I who have distorted anything. But I see now the difference in what I am actually saying and what you think I’m arguing.

Do I say that the Bible is corrupted? Period, end of statement? No, in fact that’s not what I’m claiming–nor what I have ever claimed. What Muslims believe, and I’ll state it as simply as possible, is this:

God revealed messages to previous prophets–among them Moses, David, and Jesus.

Those scriptures are known by Christians and Jews.

God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad–the last and final message to mankind.

Anything in existing scriptures which agrees with the Qur’an, Muslims believe is authentic–part of the original revelation, and they accept it.

Anything in existing scriptures which does not agree with the Qur’an, Muslims reject as either being a distortion, an outright lie, or something that has been abrogated.

Pretty simple. You can stop arguing now.

Although you do not personally claim that the Bible is corrupted, you have so far posted in favour of the conventional Islamic theories of biblical corruption. This is what has caused me to state that you also bring up the same charges against the Bible - not personally, but pursuing the teachings and interpretations of Muslim scholars who strive to consolidate their allegations.

Besides, we Christians believe that Jesus is the eternal Word of God, who is the ultimate, best, and the only direct divine revelation given to mankind in flesh.

As for Muslims viewing the Koran as their checkpoint, nothing wrong with that since we Christians do the same with the Bible. Accordingly, we do not believe that the Koran is either inspired or dictated basically because it goes against our main tenets and contradicts the biblical data.

P.S. I have not been arguing with you or anyone! We have been discussing only. A heated debate is not something I can equate with arguments.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[planten]

From angelos:
Let’s read the verse once more:

6: 91. And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: Allah hath naught revealed unto a human being. Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it) ? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling.

It is obvious in this verse that the pronoun used for the so-called revelation to Moses and the Torah the Jews of Mohammad’s time possess is the same: The Jews have put on parchments no other text than the one revealed to Moses. Although it is true that the verse in question blames Jews for hiding some parts of the revelation, it still contends that it is the same preserved revelation received by Moses.

I have not read all the posts but I may inform angelos that if Quran accuses the Jews of the time of Muhammad, it does not accuse them of the faults even though it uses the word “You” or “ye” as I have colored it.

When Quran says to the Jews " You did this and you did that, e.g. you broke the sabath and you made the calf for worship etc…" it does not mean that the Jews of the time of the prophet Muhammad did those things. It only means that old time Jews i.e. their ancestors did all that. That the Jews did it.

There is no doubt that a proper book was given to Moses in which there was guidance and the Jewish leaders decided the matters in the light of that guidance.

But, alas, later they did not do justice to that revealed book Torah. They mishandled it and modified it and discarded it (did not act on it when required). The most important example of the mistakes of the Jews was in the time of Jesus.

The Jews had all their books and they were reciting it very carefully, word for word. But did they understand the contents of their books?? No. That is why they denied and did not accept Jesus. Had they been guided and God fearing, they would have recognised Jesus and would not have punished him and his followers.

The Quran is mentioning the same things and accusing the Jews of malpractice.

 

[planten]

My pleasure indeed! The Koran contradicts itself if it says “the Bible is corrupted” in other places. BTW I really wonder why you Muslims fail to support your assertions through the chapters/verses of the Mecca period! All of the quotes you post (disregarding their context) uncannily belong to a chapter of the Medina period.

I m in shock now: While boasting of causing the Jews to inherit the Torah, Allah is referring to the inheritance of a corrupted version then! Well, maybe this is all he can do. No comments on his empty conceits!

**There was no problem in Makkah. There were no Jews there. The verses concerning the Jews were revealed in Madinah. The prophet made a pact of peace with the Jews in Madinah to wrok together to defend the city if it was attacked.

The most controversy in Makkah was with the pagans (polytheists). They were addressed. Do you want that God should address the Jews in Makkah?? Why is that when there are no Jews to be mentioned there.**

It is again the chapters of Medina that criticize Jews and Christians! We know the reason though: they did not believe in Mohammad and his book and incurred his hostility and hatred. Allah changing sides after Mohammad’s migration: He asks Mohammad to consult Jews and their Scripture in Mecca(10: 94). However, in Medina he realizes his mistake and marks most of the Jews as dishonest people.

**There is no such thing as changing sides. That would be bad to think of the God to do like that. The bad history of the Jews is written in the bible OT and you are trying to defend them for nothing. You should not do that please.

The Jews made the big mistakes and for that, they were punished, their place of worship was destroyed and they were captured and scattered into different lands. That is a fact of history.

Their last good work was to deny Jesus which the Quran accuses them of. And you are trying to defend them for that too. Sis Amy has rightly understood everthing and presented it. She has to present the verses from the Quran where ever they are found.

If they were revealed in Madinah, that is not the fault of Amy. The Jews were addressed in Madinah and the Quran pointed out their mistakes about ridiculing Jesus and putting him on the cross. That was a great crime. If the Jews could not look after their scripture then it is not the fault of the Muslims. It was their own fault.

Now if they are behaving themselves then it is good for them. But where from will they bring the original Torah? It would be impossible. Same goes for the bible NT too, I mean the Injeel which was given to Jesus is not to be found any where. What to do?**

What makes you think so? How can you be so sure that it does not talk about non-Muslims? What about the ayah 3: 113-114? Non-Muslims reciting the Scripture of Allah?

Not understood. No comments.

What Vickie and other people here can see through your posts is how Muslims twist certain verses of their scripture to justify themselves and compel the Koran to support their distortion theories. How deceitful and pathetic indeed! Thanks to this forum, I have reached the knowledge that Muslims desperately need biblical corruption for the validity of their so-called divine revelation.

I shall always pray that Allah save you from the greatest dilemma: Believing in the former revelations because they supposedly support the Koran and denying the former revelations’ authenticity because they overtly contradict the Koran. (If only Mohammad’s scribes had been more careful while making their Allah confirm the other Scriptures that Jews and Christians had with them!)

Peace,
ANgelos N.B.

**There is no distorted theory. Islam means peace. It is not a racial religion. It is universal. Muslims do not have to dispute with any one. But we are told by Allah in the Quran that there had been manipulation of the text of Torah and also similar things in the Injeel. The additions in the bible NT are very clear. There is massive writings in addition to Jesus sayings.

Other people have been propounding their philosophy in the NT in large quantity. by those who were nobody at all. Say paul, who was not mentioned in the Torah, not prophesied by Jesus, not liked by any follower of Jesus, he wrote most of the things and the church adopted them. So the manipulation is very clear.

Quran is not wrong in accusing the older faith people for their bad work (pardon me). Quran tells us to believe that Moses was a right prophet. Jesus was a true prophet. Abraham and Issac and jacob were all true prophets. So we Muslims believe all that. We do not need any lesson from any Jew or a christian for those matters. But they may try to present what they honestly think to be the right things. Welcome.**

 

[rikkk1958]

I think it is sad to know that muslims would be difficult to be pursuaded by the truth. Would muhammed make a revelation if he had not heard the stories from the Holy Bible? The basis of his recitations are obvious. He had no witness that he saw the Angel Gabriel. What made him pursuade others? Was it through miracles? No, I am sure history would explain much better. The OT and NT are well connected for a number of centuries. The prohesy about Jesus was not just a one night revelation. This is not to be done by one person alone forcing his way violently just to hear his teachings and made them to follow. Jesus is the only way, the life and the truth. He had not welded a sword to proclaim the Kingdom of God. His Words are the bread of life. The apostles who witnessed His works were there to tell what it was like and the disciples who risked and even offered their lives peacefully to make known that the life of Jesus Christ was more than just another creation. Muslims should read more the Holy Bible to undestand the distinction of the Quran. There is no comparison. They have to understand that many people have the ability to be charismatic to pursuade. We have many religions nowadays because of that and most offered a so called “revelation”. Mormons, Jehovah’s, Seventh Day, Iglesia ni Cristo, and of course, Islam.

 

[inJESUS]

God **revealed **

messages to previous prophets–among them Moses, David, and Jesus.

Those **scriptures **are known by Christians and Jews. in your previous replies you hinted at a difference between revelation and scriptures. Are you saying now that people *possessed as scriptures *what God revealed? because i just can’t follow your arguments…

Anything in existing scriptures which agrees with the Qur’an, Muslims believe is authentic–part of the original revelation, and they accept it.

 

[inJESUS]

It’s pretty obvious that the Qur’an isn’t saying that what the Jews had was preserved, that it was as pristine as the revelation to Moses. Just that God revealed to Moses, and the Jews have some of it. You can consult a common tafsir of this ayah here

.

Specifically this part is interesting: (which you have made into (separate) papersheets, disclosing (some of it) and concealing (much).) means, you made the Tawrah into separate sheets which you copied from the original and altered, changed and distorted as you wished. You then said, "this is from Allah,’’ meaning it is in the revealed Book of Allah, when in fact, it is not from Allah.
[015:091] Who have made the Quran into parts. (i.e. believed in a part and disbelieved in the other).

So if Allah says " woe to some Muslims who were given the scriptures but used to hide a part of it"

is he talking about all Muslims?

is he talking about textual corruption?

i still have to read ONE verse of textual corruption by all Jews and Christians and therefore neither of them should read them nor should the Muslims.

 

[Sister_Amy]

**i still have to read ONE verse of textual corruption by all Jews and Christians **and therefore neither of them should read them nor should the Muslims.

As planten actually explained a few posts up, the Qur’an doesn’t say ALL Jews or ALL Christians. Neither have I. The point is that SOME did.

My statements have been twisted every which way, the ayas from the Qur’an have been lifted out of context and burdened with implications which no Islamic scholar has EVER suggested and rikkk says Muslims don’t believe in the truth. The truth is there, and it’s plain–in the Qur’an.

I never meant this thread to be about Qur’anic beliefs ABOUT the Bible. Never. And sadly it’s gone away from my original intention which was actually to compare the content of the two books. Apparently a subject too high-brow for most of the posters here who insist on distorting the Qur’an–for what reason I can’t begin to fathom.

 

[Angelos]

I have not read all the posts but I may inform angelos that if Quran accuses the Jews of the time of Muhammad, it does not accuse them of the faults even though it uses the word “You” or “ye” as I have colored it.

First, thanks for writing a response irrelevant to mine! I am not the least interested in the separation of the Jews of Mohammad’s time from their ancestors. Nevertheless, the verse quoted plainly and undoubtedly addresses the Jews of Mohammad’s time because it has the imperative “Say” in present tense. Thus, the people referred to are not a group of dead people as your post implies.

When Quran says to the Jews " You did this and you did that, e.g. you broke the sabath and you made the calf for worship etc…" it does not mean that the Jews of the time of the prophet Muhammad did those things. It only means that old time Jews i.e. their ancestors did all that. That the Jews did it.

Thanks for the clarification although no clarification was needed! Yet Mohammad blames Jews of his time for the mistakes of their ancestors. In short, Mohammad tries to say what the Jews of his time do is not different from what their ancestors did. It is a matter of taking after.

There is no doubt that a proper book was given to Moses in which there was guidance and the Jewish leaders decided the matters in the light of that guidance.

There is no doubt that this statement of yours needs a grammatical correction: The Koran does not say in the book given to Moses WAS there guidance and light, but there IS! This present tense marker reveals the truth most of the Muslim scholars strive to conceal.

5: 44. Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah’s Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses.

28: 49. Say (unto them, O Muhammad): Then bring a scripture from the presence of Allah that giveth clearer guidance than these two (that) I may follow it, if ye are truthful.

But, alas, later they did not do justice to that revealed book Torah. They mishandled it and modified it and discarded it (did not act on it when required). The most important example of the mistakes of the Jews was in the time of Jesus.

I have to repeat it: what you are doing now is only reading into the Islamic scripture and adding your personal comments into the text! More, not fulfilling what the Torah says is not the same as distorting or textually modifying the Scripture.

The Jews had all their books and they were reciting it very carefully, word for word. But did they understand the contents of their books?? No. That is why they denied and did not accept Jesus. Had they been guided and God fearing, they would have recognised Jesus and would not have punished him and his followers.

The Quran is mentioning the same things and accusing the Jews of malpractice.

Nothing wrong with that! Please re-read my posts to see my points.
Peace,
ANgelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

**There was no problem in Makkah. There were no Jews there. The verses concerning the Jews were revealed in Madinah. The prophet made a pact of peace with the Jews in Madinah to wrok together to defend the city if it was attacked.

The most controversy in Makkah was with the pagans (polytheists). They were addressed. Do you want that God should address the Jews in Makkah?? Why is that when there are no Jews to be mentioned there.**

The verses I previously posted rebut your claims though. Read the Koran more carefully to see that many verses of the Mecca period deal with Jews. Besides, the occurrence of the verses dealing with a community in the Koran did not depend on whether or not that community inhabited in Mecca. Chapter 30, for instance, talks of Greeks and their future victory. Do you really believe that those Greeks and/or their army lived in Mecca?

There is no such thing as changing sides. That would be bad to think of the God to do like that. The bad history of the Jews is written in the bible OT and you are trying to defend them for nothing. You should not do that please.

I am not trying to defend or belittle anyone here! Sorry, the sudden change in Allah’s attitude towards Jews in the Koran verifies my claim. The Medina period is the time when the god of the Koran starts an anti-Semitic campaign against Jews simply because they reject Mohammad and his scripture.
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**
The Jews made the big mistakes and for that, they were punished, their place of worship was destroyed and they were captured and scattered into different lands. That is a fact of history.

Their last good work was to deny Jesus which the Quran accuses them of. And you are trying to defend them for that too. Sis Amy has rightly understood everthing and presented it. She has to present the verses from the Quran where ever they are found.**

The issue here is not Jews and Jesus, but Jews and the Koran. So please stick to the topic and do not be evasive.

**
If they were revealed in Madinah, that is not the fault of Amy. The Jews were addressed in Madinah and the Quran pointed out their mistakes about ridiculing Jesus and putting him on the cross. That was a great crime. If the Jews could not look after their scripture then it is not the fault of the Muslims. It was their own fault.

Now if they are behaving themselves then it is good for them. But where from will they bring the original Torah? It would be impossible. Same goes for the bible NT too, I mean the Injeel which was given to Jesus is not to be found any where. What to do?**

If you expect to find a book that has never existed, you will always remain a disappointed dreamer.

There is no distorted theory. Islam means peace. It is not a racial religion. It is universal. Muslims do not have to dispute with any one. But we are told by Allah in the Quran that there had been manipulation of the text of Torah and also similar things in the Injeel. The additions in the bible NT are very clear. There is massive writings in addition to Jesus sayings.

Other people have been propounding their philosophy in the NT in large quantity. by those who were nobody at all. Say paul, who was not mentioned in the Torah, not prophesied by Jesus, not liked by any follower of Jesus, he wrote most of the things and the church adopted them. So the manipulation is very clear.

The additions are clear? You have just confessed that no one can find the - so-called - original Injeel! How can you be sure and convince me that the text has been altered if you do not have the original for a sound comparison? Wishful thinking.

I have already addressed Muslim scholars’ false claims about Paul. However, those scholars have not answered yet why the Koran does not mention Paul.

Quran is not wrong in accusing the older faith people for their bad work (pardon me). Quran tells us to believe that Moses was a right prophet. Jesus was a true prophet. Abraham and Issac and jacob were all true prophets. So we Muslims believe all that. We do not need any lesson from any Jew or a christian for those matters. But they may try to present what they honestly think to be the right things. Welcome.

As I always say: Good Luck to you! The Bible tells us that God is reliable and His words never change. We also trust in Jesus, who has solemnly promised to be with us unto the end of ages. No need for another messenger or revelation since we have Jesus: perfection.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.