C
COPLAND_3
Guest
Here is the link to chapters 4-6 of my commentary if anyone would like to use it. litteralchristianlibrary.wetpaint.com/page/My+Personal+commentary+Rev.+4-6
- Status
B
Benadam
Guest
:twocents: on the 24 elders
If the Author of Revelation meant Priest in the liturgical sense of the word who they are can’t be who I’m thinking they are. But if the author meant ‘elder’ as a general term for a teaching example or rule for a holy life originating from a kind of familial ancestry I see them as the first 12 couples joined in the Matrimonial bond decending from Adam through Seth.
I think this because the heavenly image depicted is where eternity enters time and human history which would also be a picture of when time and human history departed eternity. Where the end and the beginning converge.
These first generation couples I’m thinking, would have the burden of maintaining the broken bond between man and woman at the level of purity re-established by Adam and Eve. The highest ground preserving the first Sacrament established in the Garden.That re-establishment of Matrimonial near-original innocense would be foundational for the rest of human history untill the Incarnation.
It also represents the strongest defensive guard protecting the entire People of God from the evil ones most sublime attack.
If the Author of Revelation meant Priest in the liturgical sense of the word who they are can’t be who I’m thinking they are. But if the author meant ‘elder’ as a general term for a teaching example or rule for a holy life originating from a kind of familial ancestry I see them as the first 12 couples joined in the Matrimonial bond decending from Adam through Seth.
I think this because the heavenly image depicted is where eternity enters time and human history which would also be a picture of when time and human history departed eternity. Where the end and the beginning converge.
These first generation couples I’m thinking, would have the burden of maintaining the broken bond between man and woman at the level of purity re-established by Adam and Eve. The highest ground preserving the first Sacrament established in the Garden.That re-establishment of Matrimonial near-original innocense would be foundational for the rest of human history untill the Incarnation.
It also represents the strongest defensive guard protecting the entire People of God from the evil ones most sublime attack.
R
ryanoneil
Guest
(4:1) establishes the book’s historical setting. The letters to the churches have been read. The events to be examined immediately follow the time of these churches in the first century. (keep in mind 1:1; 3)
The 24 elders might represent the entire priesthood of the New Covenant. The imagery hearkens back to the 24 sets of 24 priests in 1 Chrinicles 24. I agree with 12 Apostles and 12 patriarchs.
I agree with four living creatures beign cherubim in Ezekials vision.
(4:8) The holy, holy, holy, sung by the four living creatures is the same which we join our voices to during every Mass.
The 24 elders might represent the entire priesthood of the New Covenant. The imagery hearkens back to the 24 sets of 24 priests in 1 Chrinicles 24. I agree with 12 Apostles and 12 patriarchs.
I agree with four living creatures beign cherubim in Ezekials vision.
(4:8) The holy, holy, holy, sung by the four living creatures is the same which we join our voices to during every Mass.
O
Odell
Guest
Could somebody please cut and paste the rest of the chapters my computer is down and I’m doing this on my blackberry and don’t know if I can cut and paste. I have tried I just don’t think I can do it
But it would be nice if someone took over untill then I don’t want this study to die thanks
But it would be nice if someone took over untill then I don’t want this study to die thanks
B
Benadam
Guest
Chapter 5
**1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals. **
**2 And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? **
**3 And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it. **
**4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it. **
**5 And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. **
**6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. **
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.
** 8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: **
**9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. **
**10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth. **
**11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands, **
**12 Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction. **
**13 And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever. **
**14 And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever. **
**1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne, a book written within and without, sealed with seven seals. **
**2 And I saw a strong angel, proclaiming with a loud voice: Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? **
**3 And no man was able, neither in heaven, nor on earth, nor under the earth, to open the book, nor to look on it. **
**4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open the book, nor to see it. **
**5 And one of the ancients said to me: Weep not; behold the lion of the tribe of Juda, the root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. **
**6 And I saw: and behold in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the ancients, a Lamb standing as it were slain, having seven horns and seven eyes: which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. **
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne.
** 8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints: **
**9 And they sung a new canticle, saying: Thou art worthy, O Lord, to take the book, and to open the seals thereof; because thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God, in thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation. **
**10 And hast made us to our God a kingdom and priests, and we shall reign on the earth. **
**11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne, and the living creatures, and the ancients; and the number of them was thousands of thousands, **
**12 Saying with a loud voice: The Lamb that was slain is worthy to receive power, and divinity, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and benediction. **
**13 And every creature, which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them: I heard all saying: To him that sitteth on the throne, and to the Lamb, benediction, and honour, and glory, and power, for ever and ever. **
**14 And the four living creatures said: Amen. And the four and twenty ancients fell down on their faces, and adored him that liveth for ever and ever. **
O
Odell
Guest
We say this at mass the power and glory are yours forever and ever amen
But when do we say this and in response to what?
Does it have anything to do with this verse?
Thanks
N
nablaise
Guest
I have also heard some of Scott’s interpretation.
I think What is being described here is the Mass.
First the Lamb is the Eucharistic Jesus. In the Eucharist, Jesus is veiled. In Revelation, the Mass is being explaned.
I think, Revelation is an explanation of how the New Covenant works.
The Lamb is the main character of the covenant. In Revelation it is mentioned I think the most time. Jesus is the center character in Revelation as the Lamb. This is because what is being revealed is the mysteries of the ‘covenant’ (the new covenant’. So the Temple is being described as the Temple was described in the Old Covenant, the Temple of Jerusalem/Solomon.
I think the Lam with seven horns which are the seven spirits of God sent throught the world is the Eucharist.
The Eucharist is the most important Sacrament, in fact, we call it the most blessed sacraments. From it in a sens we get the other sacraments. And the Lamb reign throught the power of the sacraments today. Today Jesus reign as the Lamb and trough the power of the Sacraments.
I think the 24 elders could be a representation of the new covenant priests who are offering Mass. May be the bishops. Bishops are in a sens priests and kings, so they wear crowns. And are colled to offer holy sacrifices.
The 4 creatures I think represents what someone said above. I think they represents the holy works done during the six days before the Lord’s day. The holy works we do during the week and that we offer to God during Mass. I think this is what it means that they say ‘holy, holy, holy’ unceasingly. Because we are supposed to pray unceasingly and worship in everything we do. And since we reign over the rest of visible creation, we are supposed to animate other creatures in worship, singing holy to God and the Lamb.
We use the wording ‘Lamb of God’ so many times in our catholic prayers and especially in the Mass. I think it is because the Church want us to keep our attention to the Eucharist. St. Augustine said that we should spend the whole week in preparation for the Eucharist. The Lamb standing as if slain is the living flesh and blood of Christ, the living Bread. All this is covenantal language and symbology. And Jesus used the word ‘covenant’ only once in the NT: when he was consacrating the Eucharist.
Here is an article on how Christ is regning today.
St. Paul does a description of the Mass in Hebrew also which sounds like a summary of what was revealed to St. John.
God bless
I think What is being described here is the Mass.
First the Lamb is the Eucharistic Jesus. In the Eucharist, Jesus is veiled. In Revelation, the Mass is being explaned.
I think, Revelation is an explanation of how the New Covenant works.
The Lamb is the main character of the covenant. In Revelation it is mentioned I think the most time. Jesus is the center character in Revelation as the Lamb. This is because what is being revealed is the mysteries of the ‘covenant’ (the new covenant’. So the Temple is being described as the Temple was described in the Old Covenant, the Temple of Jerusalem/Solomon.
I think the Lam with seven horns which are the seven spirits of God sent throught the world is the Eucharist.
The Eucharist is the most important Sacrament, in fact, we call it the most blessed sacraments. From it in a sens we get the other sacraments. And the Lamb reign throught the power of the sacraments today. Today Jesus reign as the Lamb and trough the power of the Sacraments.
I think the 24 elders could be a representation of the new covenant priests who are offering Mass. May be the bishops. Bishops are in a sens priests and kings, so they wear crowns. And are colled to offer holy sacrifices.
The 4 creatures I think represents what someone said above. I think they represents the holy works done during the six days before the Lord’s day. The holy works we do during the week and that we offer to God during Mass. I think this is what it means that they say ‘holy, holy, holy’ unceasingly. Because we are supposed to pray unceasingly and worship in everything we do. And since we reign over the rest of visible creation, we are supposed to animate other creatures in worship, singing holy to God and the Lamb.
We use the wording ‘Lamb of God’ so many times in our catholic prayers and especially in the Mass. I think it is because the Church want us to keep our attention to the Eucharist. St. Augustine said that we should spend the whole week in preparation for the Eucharist. The Lamb standing as if slain is the living flesh and blood of Christ, the living Bread. All this is covenantal language and symbology. And Jesus used the word ‘covenant’ only once in the NT: when he was consacrating the Eucharist.
Here is an article on how Christ is regning today.
St. Paul does a description of the Mass in Hebrew also which sounds like a summary of what was revealed to St. John.
God bless
N
nablaise
Guest
‘Seven’ is always associated with ‘covenant’. So I think the book with seven seals is some document related to the new covenant or it is the new covenant itself. This is could be an other illustration indicating that Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant and that he accomplished his mediation by being a Lamb of sacrifice: the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
This process of mediation is indicated by the fact that first the book is in the hand of the Father, no one is worthy to open it, but they would like it to be opened. so a mediator is found, the Lamb yet, a lion has conquered and became the mediator.
I also think this illustraton of Jesus as a Lion who conquers yet who appears as a Lamb, is an other illustration of the power of the Eucharist. To the Romans, the Bread that christians broke looked simple and harmless. Yet, this Bread conquered Rome and the world.
God bless
R
ryanoneil
Guest
Victorinus and Origen wrote that the scroll (5:3) was the Old Testament. The entire Old Testament points to Christ and His Kingdom, whose true nature remains shrouded in mystery until the seals are broken. What was hidden in the Old Testament was revealed in the Messiah.
The heavenly song reveals the contents of the hidden message. Christ is able to open and reveal the contents of the hidden message in the scroll because of His Passion. That sacrifice established a Kingdom with priests, an ecclesiastical people (both Jew and Gentile) of every nation. These people will unite and reign on earth in a spiritual ecllesiastical Kingdom, rather than an physical political one. Which is the true message and true nature of the Messiah’s Kingdom.
That was earth shaking news in the first century. No longer the distinction between Jew vs. Gentile. Instead it is ransomed vs. unbelieving. The message is revealed when the seals are opened.
Also, Notice how the coming of this Kingdom is already spoken of in the past tense. The Kingdom is in existence even before the events of the Apocalyse take place, even before we get to the destription of the Millenium. Not seven years after this scene in chapter 5.
The heavenly song reveals the contents of the hidden message. Christ is able to open and reveal the contents of the hidden message in the scroll because of His Passion. That sacrifice established a Kingdom with priests, an ecclesiastical people (both Jew and Gentile) of every nation. These people will unite and reign on earth in a spiritual ecllesiastical Kingdom, rather than an physical political one. Which is the true message and true nature of the Messiah’s Kingdom.
That was earth shaking news in the first century. No longer the distinction between Jew vs. Gentile. Instead it is ransomed vs. unbelieving. The message is revealed when the seals are opened.
Also, Notice how the coming of this Kingdom is already spoken of in the past tense. The Kingdom is in existence even before the events of the Apocalyse take place, even before we get to the destription of the Millenium. Not seven years after this scene in chapter 5.
N
nablaise
Guest
Hey, I think you are right. The scroll is the Old Covenant. Thanks for the post.
The CCC says that the New Covenant is hiden in the Old and the Old is revealed in the New.
Plus, I just remembered the story of the disciple of Emaus. After the long journey of explanation of the Old Covenant, everything became completely revealed to them at the braking of the bread.
So people were sorrowfull because they could not make sens of the Old Covenant mysteries…
God bless
D
D_M
Guest
Could the scroll be the book of life?
Only lamb had the power to unlock it which held the names of those who were predestined to ‘reign on earth’ forever. By no other means can we go to the Father but through the Son (and thus be counted in the book of life). We need not weep because our Mediator has come, and all glory and honour and power belong to Him.
We adore Him forever.
Only lamb had the power to unlock it which held the names of those who were predestined to ‘reign on earth’ forever. By no other means can we go to the Father but through the Son (and thus be counted in the book of life). We need not weep because our Mediator has come, and all glory and honour and power belong to Him.
We adore Him forever.
O
Odell
Guest
I got my computer back on sorry for the wait
**Chapter 6
1
Then I watched while the Lamb broke open the first of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures cry out in a voice like thunder, “Come forward.”
2
I looked, and there was a white horse, and its rider had a bow. He was given a crown, and he rode forth victorious to further his victories.
3
When he broke open the second seal, I heard the second living creature cry out, “Come forward.”
4
Another horse came out, a red one. Its rider was given power to take peace away from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And he was given a huge sword.
5
When he broke open the third seal, I heard the third living creature cry out, “Come forward.” I looked, and there was a black horse, and its rider held a scale in his hand.
6
I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures. It said, “A ration of wheat costs a day’s pay, and three rations of barley cost a day’s pay. But do not damage the olive oil or the wine.”
7
When he broke open the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature cry out, “Come forward.”
8
I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and plague, and by means of the beasts of the earth.
9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
10
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
11
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
12
10 Then I watched while he broke open the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; the sun turned as black as dark sackcloth and the whole moon became like blood.
13
The stars in the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs shaken loose from the tree in a strong wind.
14
Then the sky was divided like a torn scroll curling up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15
The kings of the earth, the nobles, the military officers, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid themselves in caves and among mountain crags.
16
They cried out to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17
because the great day of their wrath has come and who can withstand it?” **
**Chapter 6
1
Then I watched while the Lamb broke open the first of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures cry out in a voice like thunder, “Come forward.”
2
I looked, and there was a white horse, and its rider had a bow. He was given a crown, and he rode forth victorious to further his victories.
3
When he broke open the second seal, I heard the second living creature cry out, “Come forward.”
4
Another horse came out, a red one. Its rider was given power to take peace away from the earth, so that people would slaughter one another. And he was given a huge sword.
5
When he broke open the third seal, I heard the third living creature cry out, “Come forward.” I looked, and there was a black horse, and its rider held a scale in his hand.
6
I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures. It said, “A ration of wheat costs a day’s pay, and three rations of barley cost a day’s pay. But do not damage the olive oil or the wine.”
7
When he broke open the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature cry out, “Come forward.”
8
I looked, and there was a pale green horse. Its rider was named Death, and Hades accompanied him. They were given authority over a quarter of the earth, to kill with sword, famine, and plague, and by means of the beasts of the earth.
9
When he broke open the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered because of the witness they bore to the word of God.
10
They cried out in a loud voice, “How long will it be, holy and true master, before you sit in judgment and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?”
11
Each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to be patient a little while longer until the number was filled of their fellow servants and brothers who were going to be killed as they had been.
12
10 Then I watched while he broke open the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; the sun turned as black as dark sackcloth and the whole moon became like blood.
13
The stars in the sky fell to the earth like unripe figs shaken loose from the tree in a strong wind.
14
Then the sky was divided like a torn scroll curling up, and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15
The kings of the earth, the nobles, the military officers, the rich, the powerful, and every slave and free person hid themselves in caves and among mountain crags.
16
They cried out to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17
because the great day of their wrath has come and who can withstand it?” **
D
D_M
Guest
For the rider’s they are often interpreted as being: conquest, war, famine and death. Which are plagues that would befall Israel when it turned away and the Lord punished.
Some of the Messianic prophecies come to mind here also:
Zechariah 6:1-7And again I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four chariots came out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of bronze. The first chariot had red horses, the second black horses, the third white horses, and hte fourth chariot dappled grey horses. Then I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these my lord?” And the angel answered me, “These are going forth to the four winds of heaven, after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth. The chariot with the black horses goes toward the north country, the white ones go toward the west country, and the dappled ones go toward the south country.” When the steeds came out, they were impatient to get off and patrol the earth. And he said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth.
Joel 2:30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.
Joel 2:10-11 The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. The Lord utters his voice before his army, for his host is exceedingly great; he that executes his word is powerful. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; who can endure it?
Some of the Messianic prophecies come to mind here also:
Zechariah 6:1-7And again I lifted my eyes and saw, and behold, four chariots came out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of bronze. The first chariot had red horses, the second black horses, the third white horses, and hte fourth chariot dappled grey horses. Then I said to the angel who talked with me, “What are these my lord?” And the angel answered me, “These are going forth to the four winds of heaven, after presenting themselves before the Lord of all the earth. The chariot with the black horses goes toward the north country, the white ones go toward the west country, and the dappled ones go toward the south country.” When the steeds came out, they were impatient to get off and patrol the earth. And he said, “Go, patrol the earth.” So they patrolled the earth.
Joel 2:30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.
Joel 2:10-11 The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. The Lord utters his voice before his army, for his host is exceedingly great; he that executes his word is powerful. For the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; who can endure it?
O
Odell
Guest
**Chapter 7
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree.
2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10
They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”
11
All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
12
and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
14
I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15
“For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16
They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17
For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” **
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree.
2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked from every tribe of the Israelites:
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands.
10
They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”
11
All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
12
and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
14
I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, "These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15
“For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16
They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17
For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” **
O
Odell
Guest
itsnt verse 12 said at mass but maybe worded alittle different?
R
RobPollack
Guest
Hey guys i have a question. In “NLT by the way” Rev 13:7 “And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to overcome them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation.” Who gives the beast authority?
D
D_M
Guest
When we sin, we are slaves to sin, and therefore also slaves to satan. So I thank the answer is, we (as in humanity) ‘give the beast authority’.
144,000 is usually interpreted to be a symbolic number, although some christians think it to be literal.
Going back to the messianic prophecies:
Zechariah 13:8-9 In the whole land, says the Lord, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left alive. And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say , ‘The Lord is my God.’"
It says that a third will be saved here, which even if it referred only to Israel, this is still somewhat more than 144,000 (unless I’m misinterpreting something).
I think the four angels standing at the four corners, are the same riders mentioned in the previous chapter, and perhaps also the same riders mentioned in Zechariah.
Other verses of potential interest:
Seal on the foreheads:
Ezekiel 9:4 And the Lord said to him, “Go through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.”
The great tribulation and those who come clean out of it:
Daniel 12:1 "At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time; but at that time your people shall be delivered every one whose name shall be found written in the book.
Hungering no more, thirsting no more:
Isaiah 49:10 they shall not hunger or thirst, neither scorching wind nor sun shall smite them, for he who has pity on them will lead them, and by springs of water will guide them.
Wipe away every tear:
Isaiah 25:8 He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken.
S
spauline
Guest
In light of the New Covenant, I suggest a metaphorical rendering of the 144,000 and Seal. Clearly there is a contrast between the Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast.
Obviously, one simplistic way would be the contrast between the elect and the damned. There is no need to deny that as a simply layer of meaning.
However, in the context of history, and in light of the intricacies of Catholic rendering of various spiritual conditions, we might pay attention to the symbol of the forehead, where both are received. The forehead covers the mind, which is governed by the intellect of the soul. The purpose of the intellect is to contemplate and know and underestand truth. Truth is the foundation of the Church, Peter, the Rock is its ultimate foundation on earth. So long as one lives in the truth, they are protected from spiritual harm.
In a certain sense, damnation occurs because of mortal sin. In general, the less truth you are able to accept, the more likely you are to commit mortal sin.
From this, we can view the Seal of God as the spiritual protection God gives to faithful Catholics, who will never succumb to doctrinal error in their intellect, because the infallible magisterium guides them.
The Trumpets, then, from which those with the Seal are protected, can be seen as progressive developments of spiritual harms that befall the world, and from which the Catholic faithful are protected.
I have shared many times that seven general delineations of Church history beyond pagan Rome can summarize 300 AD until now.
these stages that harm the world, are summarized in the Trinitarin and Christological heresies, Islam, the Great Schism, The moral fall of the Catholic clergy, the Protestant Rebellion, the Enlightenment, and the modern secular apostasy, which is a type of the mark of the beast, in the sense that atheism and relativistic materialism are utterly bereft of Divine Truth.
I think this interpretation is quite spiritual and appropriate from a Catholic standpoint.
I can share more later when we get into chapters 8 and nine.
Obviously, one simplistic way would be the contrast between the elect and the damned. There is no need to deny that as a simply layer of meaning.
However, in the context of history, and in light of the intricacies of Catholic rendering of various spiritual conditions, we might pay attention to the symbol of the forehead, where both are received. The forehead covers the mind, which is governed by the intellect of the soul. The purpose of the intellect is to contemplate and know and underestand truth. Truth is the foundation of the Church, Peter, the Rock is its ultimate foundation on earth. So long as one lives in the truth, they are protected from spiritual harm.
In a certain sense, damnation occurs because of mortal sin. In general, the less truth you are able to accept, the more likely you are to commit mortal sin.
From this, we can view the Seal of God as the spiritual protection God gives to faithful Catholics, who will never succumb to doctrinal error in their intellect, because the infallible magisterium guides them.
The Trumpets, then, from which those with the Seal are protected, can be seen as progressive developments of spiritual harms that befall the world, and from which the Catholic faithful are protected.
I have shared many times that seven general delineations of Church history beyond pagan Rome can summarize 300 AD until now.
these stages that harm the world, are summarized in the Trinitarin and Christological heresies, Islam, the Great Schism, The moral fall of the Catholic clergy, the Protestant Rebellion, the Enlightenment, and the modern secular apostasy, which is a type of the mark of the beast, in the sense that atheism and relativistic materialism are utterly bereft of Divine Truth.
I think this interpretation is quite spiritual and appropriate from a Catholic standpoint.
I can share more later when we get into chapters 8 and nine.
B
BibleProphecy
Guest
The 144,000 are 12,000 each of the twelve tribes of Israel (Gen.49:28 below).
Gen.49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob): and this is it that their father (Jacob/Israel) spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
Directly AFTER the Sixth SEAL (Re.6:12-17) and BEFORE the Seventh, and final, SEAL is opened (Re.8:1), the 144,000 will be sealed (Re.7:3-4 below). They will be sealed in Jerusalem (Eze.9:4, Eze.9:11 below).
Re.7:3 Saying, HURT NOT the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL WE HAVE SEALED the servants of our God in their foreheads (Re.14:1 below).
Re.7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed (Eze.9:4): and there were sealed AN HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Jacob – Gen.49:28 above).
Eze.9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM, and SET A MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst (of the city) thereof.
Eze.9:11 And, behold, the man clothed in linen, which had the inkhorn by his side (Eze.9:2), reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
We will know that the sealing of the 144,000 will be taking place when we experience that the winds of the earth will have stopped blowing for the duration of the sealing (Re.7:1-4).
The 144,000 are sealed that they will not see death. The 144,000 are those who are “alive and remain” to be caught up with the dead in Christ at the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17).
Witnessing the Sixth Seal, the 144,000 will know that Jesus is the Messiah. We know this because we see the 144,000, who have been redeemed from the earth, who have been redeemed from among men, standing with the Lamb (the Savior) on heavenly mount Sion (Re.14:1-2, Heb.12:22 below) directly after the Seventh Trumpet ascension.
Re.14:1 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb (Rev.13:8) stood on mount Sion (Heb.12:22 below), and with him AN HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads (Re.7:3-4 above, Eze.9:4).
Re.14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne (Re.7:10, Re.7:17), and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn the song but THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH (Re.11:13, 1 Thess.4:17).
Heb.12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion (Re.14:1 above), and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
The 144,000 are the firstfruits unto God AND to the Lamb because they were the first “chosen” of the church (1 Cor.10:32) before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4).
The 144,000 are virgins (Re.14:4 below). They are virgins because the entire church (1 Cor.10:32) are a chaste virgin to Christ (2 Cor.11:2).
The 144,000 are without fault (Re.14:5 below), because the entire church of God are without fault (Rom.8:1).
Re.14:4 These (144,000) are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (2 Cor.11:2). These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Re.14:3 above), BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God (the Father) AND to the Lamb (the Savior).
Re.14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT (Rom.8:1) before the throne of God.
Referencing Dan.9:24, the 144,000 are the most Holy.
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
Gen.49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel (Jacob): and this is it that their father (Jacob/Israel) spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.
Directly AFTER the Sixth SEAL (Re.6:12-17) and BEFORE the Seventh, and final, SEAL is opened (Re.8:1), the 144,000 will be sealed (Re.7:3-4 below). They will be sealed in Jerusalem (Eze.9:4, Eze.9:11 below).
Re.7:3 Saying, HURT NOT the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL WE HAVE SEALED the servants of our God in their foreheads (Re.14:1 below).
Re.7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed (Eze.9:4): and there were sealed AN HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND of all the tribes of the children of Israel (Jacob – Gen.49:28 above).
Eze.9:4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of JERUSALEM, and SET A MARK upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst (of the city) thereof.
Eze.9:11 And, behold, the man clothed in linen, which had the inkhorn by his side (Eze.9:2), reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.
We will know that the sealing of the 144,000 will be taking place when we experience that the winds of the earth will have stopped blowing for the duration of the sealing (Re.7:1-4).
The 144,000 are sealed that they will not see death. The 144,000 are those who are “alive and remain” to be caught up with the dead in Christ at the Seventh Trumpet (1 Thess.4:16-17).
Witnessing the Sixth Seal, the 144,000 will know that Jesus is the Messiah. We know this because we see the 144,000, who have been redeemed from the earth, who have been redeemed from among men, standing with the Lamb (the Savior) on heavenly mount Sion (Re.14:1-2, Heb.12:22 below) directly after the Seventh Trumpet ascension.
Re.14:1 And I looked, and lo, a Lamb (Rev.13:8) stood on mount Sion (Heb.12:22 below), and with him AN HUNDRED FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads (Re.7:3-4 above, Eze.9:4).
Re.14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne (Re.7:10, Re.7:17), and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn the song but THE HUNDRED AND FORTY AND FOUR THOUSAND, WHICH WERE REDEEMED FROM THE EARTH (Re.11:13, 1 Thess.4:17).
Heb.12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion (Re.14:1 above), and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
The 144,000 are the firstfruits unto God AND to the Lamb because they were the first “chosen” of the church (1 Cor.10:32) before the foundation of the world (Eph.1:4).
The 144,000 are virgins (Re.14:4 below). They are virgins because the entire church (1 Cor.10:32) are a chaste virgin to Christ (2 Cor.11:2).
The 144,000 are without fault (Re.14:5 below), because the entire church of God are without fault (Rom.8:1).
Re.14:4 These (144,000) are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins (2 Cor.11:2). These are they which follow the Lamb withersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men (Re.14:3 above), BEING THE FIRSTFRUITS unto God (the Father) AND to the Lamb (the Savior).
Re.14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are WITHOUT FAULT (Rom.8:1) before the throne of God.
Referencing Dan.9:24, the 144,000 are the most Holy.
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
B
BibleProphecy
Guest
The Dragon, the Beast, and the False Prophet -
End-time prophecy is confronted with THREE separate and unique evil entities (Re.16:13 below). There is the dragon/Satan, the beast of Revelation 13:1, and the beast of Revelation 13:11.
Re.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the DRAGON (Re.12:9, Re.20:2, Re.9:11), and out of the mouth of the BEAST (Re.13:1-8), and out of the mouth of the FALSE PROPHET (Re.13:11-17).
The fourth beast/king of Daniel chapter 7 is seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1. He is a man/king and has the number 666 (Re.13:18).
At Revelation 13:1 we are witnessing the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 “rise up out of the sea” (Dan.7:3), “out of the earth” (Dan.7:17), out of the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2).
The beast of Revelation 13:11 is seen in the book of Daniel as the “another” “little horn/king” (Dan.7:20, Dan.7:24, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:9, Dan.8:11, Dan.8:23-25, Dan.11:36-38). He is the false prophet (Re.16:13 above, Re.19:20). He is a man/king. He will be a Jew; he will not regard the God of his fathers (Dan.11:37).
After the fourth beast/king (Dan.7:7), seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1, comes upon the world scene, “another” beast/king comes up “out of the earth” (Re.13:11, Re.11:7), as did the first four beasts/kings (Dan.7:3, Dan.7:17).
Once the little horn/king of Daniel, the “another” beast of Revelation 13:11, sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2:4), he is seen as the scarlet colored beast of Revelation chapter 17, who has ascended out of the bottomless pit (Re.17:8).
The beasts/kings of Daniel/Revelation ALL come out of the bottomless pit. Their identities will not be known until they ascend out of the bottomless pit at the Fifth Trumpet (Re.9:1-2).
The spiritual opening of the bottomless pit is in the Dead Sea.
Satan gives these beasts/kings their power (Re.13:2, Re.13:12).
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
End-time prophecy is confronted with THREE separate and unique evil entities (Re.16:13 below). There is the dragon/Satan, the beast of Revelation 13:1, and the beast of Revelation 13:11.
Re.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the DRAGON (Re.12:9, Re.20:2, Re.9:11), and out of the mouth of the BEAST (Re.13:1-8), and out of the mouth of the FALSE PROPHET (Re.13:11-17).
The fourth beast/king of Daniel chapter 7 is seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1. He is a man/king and has the number 666 (Re.13:18).
At Revelation 13:1 we are witnessing the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 “rise up out of the sea” (Dan.7:3), “out of the earth” (Dan.7:17), out of the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2).
The beast of Revelation 13:11 is seen in the book of Daniel as the “another” “little horn/king” (Dan.7:20, Dan.7:24, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:9, Dan.8:11, Dan.8:23-25, Dan.11:36-38). He is the false prophet (Re.16:13 above, Re.19:20). He is a man/king. He will be a Jew; he will not regard the God of his fathers (Dan.11:37).
After the fourth beast/king (Dan.7:7), seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1, comes upon the world scene, “another” beast/king comes up “out of the earth” (Re.13:11, Re.11:7), as did the first four beasts/kings (Dan.7:3, Dan.7:17).
Once the little horn/king of Daniel, the “another” beast of Revelation 13:11, sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2:4), he is seen as the scarlet colored beast of Revelation chapter 17, who has ascended out of the bottomless pit (Re.17:8).
The beasts/kings of Daniel/Revelation ALL come out of the bottomless pit. Their identities will not be known until they ascend out of the bottomless pit at the Fifth Trumpet (Re.9:1-2).
The spiritual opening of the bottomless pit is in the Dead Sea.
Satan gives these beasts/kings their power (Re.13:2, Re.13:12).
Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the Web
Author of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982
groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy
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