Bible

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

God made the decision.

Did God give you 7 less books than Catholics and Orthodox?

YAQUBOS:

And where do you think the canon came from? It came from Scripture.

There was no table of contents in the beginning. The Church put the canon together, decided which books made it into the canon and which did not, then created the table of canonical books, and seperated the scriptures into chapter and verse.

YAQUBOS:

We can talk about all this if the Lord wills. But first: what is the Word of God?

The Word of God is Jesus, AND the inspiration of God inscripurated

 

[patricius]

1. The Word of God is Jesus
2. AND God’s inspiration written down and inscripturated, is also called the word of God

This is right on target. Jesus, God the Son, is the complete logos, God’s Word-- to use C.S. Lewis’s terminology, “God’s self-expression-- what God has to say.”

The Bible is God’s written expression of Himself. The Church did not decide that certain things were canonical and others weren’t, it simply recognized them. There is a difference.

All of Scripture is true and good and holy and meant to teach us about God, but by its nature it is limited in its forms of expression-- it can only use human words, for instance.

God’s full self-expression to us is found in Jesus, and is expressed everywhere and all around us, especially in the Church’s sacraments and teachings.

 

[mercygate]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

God made the decision.

Yaqubos†

Catholics agree that God made the decision! Catholics say it was by the Holy Spirit working, as Christ promised, through the Mystical Body of Christ: the Church.

Catholics believe that the Word of God is --as others note – Christ himself, but also includes the written Scripture and the living tradition of the apostles (bishops), under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, teaching throughout the history of the Church up to our own day. (see: Dei Verbum)

How do you believe God made the decision, Yaqubos?

 

[Luke1_48]

Yo! How about first, you tell us why you believe in the Bible only for beliefs? Does that sound fair enough? No dissing please on both sides, just straight answers. Peace out!

 

[hlgomez]

YAQUBOS,

Where can we find the list of complete Books in Scriptures? Can you cite a verse from the Bible that says these are the books of the OT and these are the books of the NT?

Pio

 

[steve_b]

patricius:

This is right on target. Jesus, God the Son, is the complete logos, God’s Word-- to use C.S. Lewis’s terminology, “God’s self-expression-- what God has to say.”

The Bible is God’s written expression of Himself. The Church did not decide that certain things were canonical and others weren’t, it simply recognized them. There is a difference.

Yes, the Church made that recognition, and has the authority to make that recognition final. So in effect, the Church DID decide the canon. We can’t forget, Protestants have a different canon by THEIR own choosing. They have 7 fewer books in their OT. They had zero authority to eliminate those books.

 

[patricius]

Certainly Protestants decide, not recognize, their canons. But I think you’re right in a deeper sense, too-- recognizing that a certain book is inspired by God seems almost to require making a decision to include it in the official list of Scripture. So I retract the distinction I was trying to make between the two.

Still, I think it’s helpful to emphasize that when it decided on the canon, the Church wasn’t just saying “okay, we like what’s in this book, so let’s tell everyone that it’s part of the Bible.” Rather, the attitude was, “this book is apostolic and inspired, so we are compelled by the duty Christ gave us to include it in the canon.”

 

[DianJo]

This is very generalilzed but…

First, canon is a Greek word meaning “rule”. So, the canon of scripture is the “rule of faith”.

The Old Testament was around first, of course. Not as a “book” but as separate scrolls, read in the synagogues. These were a collection of scrolls that had been collected over the centuries by the Jews and used as “scripture” for teaching. These scrolls also contained the deuterocanonical scriptures. The common Old Testament used in the time of Jesus and the Apostles was the “Septuagent” (spelling?). This was the Greek translation (done in Alexandria, Egypt) of the Hebrew scripture translated between 300 BC - 150 BC or thereabouts for the Jews who could no longer speak or read Hebrew for they lived outside of Israel. The Septuagent contained the deuterocanonical books (although they may have been added later than the original Pentatauch (first 5 books of the old testament)). The Septuagent was still accepted by the Jews and read in the synagogues.This collection of Old Testament writings was accepted by the Apostles and early Chrisitan churches as scripture and adopted as the Christian scripture.

Our New Tesatment was also a collection of writings written by the Apostles and/or their disciples and their disciples (1st and 2nd generation after the Apostles). There were also many letters written to the churches of the time to teach them about the faith. These were accepted as authentic by these churches because they knew who they received them from.

So, for the first 3 centuries after Jesus’ death, the churches accepted what the Apostles accepted and wrote as their “new” testament. There was still no “book” as we know it now.

At the Council of Rome in 382 AD the canon of scripture was decided upon and again at the Councils of Hippo in 393AD and Carthage 396AD and 409AD (Those dates are close if not exactly right). It was because at this time there were many heresies floating about (Gnostism, Arianism) and many people were trying to advance these heresies by manipulating scripture. Some even went so far as to forge writings to be passed off as writings of Paul or other Apostles. The Church saw the necessity of forming a canon of scripture to fight off the heresies and to teach the faithful properly as the Holy Spirit had commanded. All the Church did was formally canonize the “scirpture” that had been accepted throughout the centuries. It in no way created anything - they only made a formal announcement about what had been traditionally accepted and formed it into a book of sorts.

Many Protesants will tell you that the Council of Trent set down the canon of scripture but this is not true. The Council of Trent only affirmed the canon of scripture after the people of the Reformation took out the deuterocanonical books of scripture. It was up to the Church to tell their followers what had been accepted for centuries by the Apostles and early Chrisitans and that the Reformers were spreading “heresy”.

There is a thread on “Non-Catholic Religions” called the “History of the Bible” that gives all this info in detail and would be very helpful to you.

Hope this generalization helps some.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

hlgomez:

Where can we find the list of complete Books in Scriptures? Can you cite a verse from the Bible?

Pio

That’s what we may talk about by His Grace AFTER we have really understood what the Word of God is.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

2. AND God’s inspiration written down and inscripturated, is also called the word of God.

1. How this Inspiration was written down?
2. Why was it written down?
3. Why is it called Word of God?
4. Who is the author of the Word of God?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
steve b:

Did God give you 7 less books than Catholics and Orthodox?

You are talking about BOOKS while the whole matter for now is to understand what the Word of God is. When we understand this, we will understand what is the matter of this word “book”.

By the way: the so called “Orthodox” did never give any official decision concerning those 7 human writings.
steve b:

There was no table of contents in the beginning. The Church put the canon together, decided which books made it into the canon and which did not, then created the table of canonical books, and seperated the scriptures into chapter and verse.

Again this word “book”… Let’s understand first what the Word of God is.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mercygate:

How do you believe God made the decision, Yaqubos?

I read this question. It is really interesting. But first: WHAT IS THE WORD OF GOD?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

You are talking about BOOKS while*** the whole matter for now is to understand what the Word of God is.*** When we understand this, we will understand what is the matter of this word “book”.

By the way: the so called “Orthodox” did never give any official decision concerning those 7 human writings.

Again this word “book”… Let’s understand first what the Word of God is.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You’re playing with words. Get to your point.

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

I read this question. It is really interesting. But first: WHAT IS THE WORD OF GOD?

In Love,
Yaqubos†

It’s been answered already several times. Jesus is the Word of God and so is scripture.

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

That’s what we may talk about by His Grace AFTER we have really understood what the Word of God is.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

It’s been answered already. That means you disagree that Jesus is the Word of God, and also scripture. So what’s YOUR answer?

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!
steve b:

It’s been answered already several times. Jesus is the Word of God and so is scripture.

Why do you call Scripture WORD OF GOD?

What is this WORD OF GOD?

I asked you 4 important questions in a previous reply. Please try to answer them.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

1. How this Inspiration was written down?

By the inspiration of the HS through human writers

YAQUBOS:

1. Why was it written down?

So all generations can read, know, love and learn what God wants us to know about Him

YAQUBOS:

1. Why is it called Word of God?

Because it is God breathed through the HS.

YAQUBOS:

1. Who is the author of the Word of God?

God’s inspiration through human writers

 

[steve_b]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Why do you call Scripture WORD OF GOD?

OT references

But the Lord replied, "Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute, the deaf, the seeing, or the blind? Have not I, the LORD? Now therefore, go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall say" (Ex. 4:11-12). So was it Moses words or God’s words?

Later, when Moses was recording the second set of tablets of the Law, God said to him, "Write these words, for according to these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel" (Ex. 34:27). the words that Moses wrote came from the mouth of God.

David also indicated the authenticity of the Scriptures and their authorship by God when he said, "The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, and His word was on my tongue" (2 Sam. 23:2). When David wrote God’s Word, no extraneous thoughts or ideas crept in.
When Jeremiah was called to prophesy for God, he, like Moses, balked. His excuse was that he could not speak, for he was a youth (Jer. 1:6). But verse 9 says, "Then the LORD put forth His hand and touched my mouth, and the LORD said to me: ‘Behold, I have put My words in your mouth.’" There was no doubt in Jeremiah’s mind-the prophecy that he recorded was not his own. He recorded the words that God had put in his mouth.

Jeremiah made numerous indirect references to God speaking through him. Nearly 100 times he wrote that “the word of the Lord” (or a similar expression) had come to him. These words appear many times in Ezekiel as well.

Hosea spoke in a similar vein. The first verse of his book begins, “The word of the LORD that came to Hosea.” A similar expression is found in the first verse of the books of Joel, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

NT references

The apostle Paul claimed that he spoke what was revealed to him by God. He said, “Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.*** These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches,*** comparing spiritual things with spiritual” (1 Cor. 2:12-13).

Paul spoke and wrote what was revealed to him by the Spirit of God. He reaffirmed this thought when he recorded, "For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe" (1 Thess. 2:13).

2 Timothy 3:16: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

To this Peter adds, "For prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" (2 Pet. 1:21).

And this goes on and on.

YAQUBOS:

What is this WORD OF GOD?

I asked you 4 important questions in a previous reply. Please try to answer them.

I answered them

 

[Psalm45_9]

Pax Vobiscvm!

YAQUBOS:

I read this question. It is really interesting. But first: WHAT IS THE WORD OF GOD?

‘101 In order to reveal himself to men, in the condescension of his goodness God speaks to them in human words: “Indeed the words of God, expressed in the words of men, are in every way like human language, just as the Word of the eternal Father, when he took on himself the flesh of human weakness, became like men.”[63]

102 Through all the words of Sacred Scripture, God speaks only one single Word, his one Utterance in whom he expresses himself completely:[64]

You recall that one and the same Word of God extends throughout Scripture, that it is one and the same Utterance that resounds in the mouths of all the sacred writers, since he who was in the beginning God with God has no need of separate syllables; for he is not subject to time.[65]

103 For this reason, the Church has always venerated the Scriptures as she venerates the Lord’s Body. She never ceases to present to the faithful the bread of life, taken from the one table of God’s Word and Christ’s Body.[66]

104 In Sacred Scripture, the Church constantly finds her nourishment and her strength, for she welcomes it not as a human word, “but as what it really is, the word of God”.[67] “In the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven comes lovingly to meet his children, and talks with them.”[68] ‘ CCC Part 1, Article 3, 101-104

YAQUBOS:

Why do you call Scripture WORD OF GOD?

‘105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. “The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.”[69]

“For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.”[70]

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”[71]

107 The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”[72]

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book”. Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living”.[73] If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.”[74] ‘ CCC Section 1, Article 3, 105-108

 

[Psalm45_9]

(contined)

YAQUBOS:

What is this WORD OF GOD?

You mean, “What is the Written Word of God?”

‘120 It was by the apostolic Tradition that the Church discerned which writings are to be included in the list of the sacred books.[90]

This complete list is called the canon of Scripture. It includes 46 books for the Old Testament (45 if we count Jeremiah and Lamentations as one) and 27 for the New.[91]

The Old Testament: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles, Ezra and Nehemiah, Tobit, Judith, Esther, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Songs, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Baruch, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zachariah and Malachi.

The New Testament: the Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, the Acts of the Apostles, the Letters of St. Paul to the Romans, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 and 2 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, the Letter to the Hebrews, the Letters of James, 1 and 2 Peter, 1, 2 and 3 John, and Jude, and Revelation (the Apocalypse).’ CCC Section 1, Article 3, 20

YAQUBOS:

I asked you 4 important questions in a previous reply. Please try to answer them.

In love,

Psalm45:9