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oat_soda
Guest
This is a good link of bible passages that clearly shows the bible does not explicitly teach that abortion is wrong:
religioustolerance.org/abo_bibl.htm
religioustolerance.org/abo_bibl.htm
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Y
yochumjy
Guest
Oh, my! They make a LOT of presumptions here. They also get off track and interject items about inficide post birth, which simply confuses the issue. This site also contradicts itself when talking about John the Baptist, and justifies by saying, well, Jesus and John the Baptist are miraculous, so that discludes them. The New Testament “conclusions” are especially misguided.
I’m surprised you think this has merit.
John
I’m surprised you think this has merit.
John
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oat_soda
Guest
I disagree. I think they make a reasonable conclusion that the bible doesn’t clearly teach that abortion is wrong. I don’t agree with their interpretations but they may not agree with mine. Especially their insistance that because they did’nt have a word for fetus they were forced to call it child. Maybe they didn’t have a word for fetus because they didn’t believe that they were not children. Their logic is a bit flawed. Overall, i think they make some good points.
why not make some specific objections if you have a problem with their interpretations?
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Faithful_2_Rome
Guest
What a stupid and heretical site
Jesus is the FULLFILLMENT of the OLD TESTAMENT…he PERFECTED and CLARIFIED with LOVE, the teachings within it. Therefore, I challenge ANYONE to produce ONE single statement in the New Testament… Gospels, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, etc…right to Revelations that even remotely hints at Abortion being justified.
Jesus is the FULLFILLMENT of the OLD TESTAMENT…he PERFECTED and CLARIFIED with LOVE, the teachings within it. Therefore, I challenge ANYONE to produce ONE single statement in the New Testament… Gospels, Acts, Romans, Corinthians, etc…right to Revelations that even remotely hints at Abortion being justified.
O
oat_soda
Guest
the point of posting this site is not to support the argument for abortion but to show the bible doesn’t explicitly teach abortion is a sin unlike what evangelicals believe and you can make a reasonable interpretation otherwise.
A
ahimsaman72
Guest
oat soda:
now, I must say that if all these scriptures are taken in context and with an objective viewpoint and with a person using common sense to interpret - such a person can in no way find the same scriptures guilty of such a horrible and contemptuous heretical thought as that proposed by the above quoted website and biased commentors at said site.
now, if we go to church tradition - killing of babies (whether fetus inside the womb or born thereafter) has always and will always be considered murder and abominable. you can go to early church fathers writings, council declarations, papal declarations and catechisms and find the killing of them wholly wrong from a moral, ethical, scientific and societal viewpoint.
your statement is ambiguous as you state that the Bible doesn’t explicity say that abortion is wrong. It doesn’t explicitly state the grass is green or most of us have eyes and ears, but we can see that it is so.
I suggest you pick your battles more wisely and that you pray that Satan doesn’t desire to sift you as wheat.
:nope:
nature itself tells us explicitly that the baby in the womb comes out and eventually becomes an adult. for me, there is not even a need to go explicitly to scripture or church tradition.
now, I must say that if all these scriptures are taken in context and with an objective viewpoint and with a person using common sense to interpret - such a person can in no way find the same scriptures guilty of such a horrible and contemptuous heretical thought as that proposed by the above quoted website and biased commentors at said site.
now, if we go to church tradition - killing of babies (whether fetus inside the womb or born thereafter) has always and will always be considered murder and abominable. you can go to early church fathers writings, council declarations, papal declarations and catechisms and find the killing of them wholly wrong from a moral, ethical, scientific and societal viewpoint.
your statement is ambiguous as you state that the Bible doesn’t explicity say that abortion is wrong. It doesn’t explicitly state the grass is green or most of us have eyes and ears, but we can see that it is so.
I suggest you pick your battles more wisely and that you pray that Satan doesn’t desire to sift you as wheat.
:nope:
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Ahimsaman:
Excellent post.
Excellent post.
M
mercygate
Guest
oat soda:
In reviewing this site, four things come to mind:
- A Catholic apologist needs to know what Scriptural references the advocates of abortion might be likely to quote.
- Catholics do not base their position entirely on Scripture alone.
- It can be argued that the absence of specific reference to abortion in Scripture is owing to the fact that it was unthinkable to Jews and Christians.
- Some of the strongest opponents of abortion are Evangelical Bible Christians. They would surely find this web site a feeble foundation for justifying abortion.
S
Steve_M
Guest
oat soda:
This is actually one of the points Mark Shea makes in By What Authority. He shows that there’s not a definitive teaching on it in the Bible, but that the Church has always taught abortion was wrong, thus showing that the anti-abortion stance is based more on tradition than scripture. He does the same with polygamy.
O
oat_soda
Guest
first, a lot of things were unthinkable to Jews and Christians, abortion probably wasn’t one of them. as far as i know abortion was a common pagan practice and because of the consequence of getting stoned if your pregnant out of wedlock, they may have had incentive to resort to abortion.
second, i challenge you or any evangelical using the bible alone to show clearly that abortion is wrong. the point is they are not basing their beliefs soley on the bible but on tradition as well which helps interpret the bible.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
I question both oat soda and Steve M about the terms, “explicitly” and “definitive”. These are plays on wording and are in fact ambiguous terms meant to convey no specific meaning. They have no value when dealing with such a straight-forward issue such as the taking of innocent life.
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oat_soda
Guest
i feel like i’m taking crazy pills when i read this. what is ambiguous about “the Bible doesn’t explicitly say that abortion is wrong”? please, using scripture alone, show me how the Bible clearly teaches that abortion is wrong.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
oat soda:
i will meet your challenge. give me some time. it will take me a while as i begin with Genesis and go all the way through Revelation to show how human life whether still in the womb or outside the womb is valuable and the taking of it inherently always morally wrong. i welcome this challenge.
B
buffalo
Guest
Am I to believe that Jesus is the fulfillment of the law and change the fourth commandment and teach that abortion is OK? WOW!!!:whacky:
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ahimsaman72
Guest
oat soda:
explicitly is ambiguous - as is the term “definitive”
M
Melchior
Guest
oat soda:
Mel
The fact that there is a legal penalty in the Torah for accidentally causing a miscarriage makes it quite clear that the Bible considers killing an unborn child wrong.
Mel
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oat_soda
Guest
for the bible to state something explicitly, it would have to say somthing to the effect of “intentionally killing an unborn baby is wrong” or discuss this act in terms of morality or sin.
O
oat_soda
Guest
i guess you didn’t take the time to look at the site. so i’ll post it.
Exodus 21:22* If men strive [fight] an hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit [fetus] depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine*.
This would imply that the fetus died immediately as a direct result of the accident. Assuming no further harm happens (e.g. that the woman does not die), the man responsible would have to pay at a fine. The amount would be set by her husband and approved by the judges. This would imply that the death of the fetus was not considered to be the death of a human person. If it were, then the man responsible would be tried for murder and executed. However, because the fetus had possible future economic worth to the father, he would have to be reimbursed for his loss.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Oat soda, I believe it was mentioned earlier that the Bible does not teach explicitly that POLYGAMY is wrong, either. After all, many of the patriarchs had more than one wife. Not only that, even in the New Testament, it is stated in Timothy that “the bishop should be the husband of ONLY ONE WIFE”–that statement alone presupposes that there exist plenty of men at that time who DO have more than one wife.
The Bible doesn’t “explicitly” teach that SLAVERY is wrong, either. There are plenty of examples of people being sold into slavery, etc. However, it was common in the Jewish jubilee–year 50–to release slaves from manumission–however, that involved various fee payments etc. which might not be available, and the practice was, inevitably, that many people were NOT freed. (And of course, that manumission was for Jews, not for other peoples).
Abortion, divorce, polygamy, slavery. . .all of these, and more, are matters of CULTURE. I believe it has been well noted that cultures, traditions, mores etc. may change, but MORALITY does not change. The fact that various cultural patterns led to the above does not mean that God willed them or ordained them, either.
You WILL note, I’m sure, that nowhere are any of the above EXTOLLED or DEMANDED as a matter of course. Men are not REQUIRED to have more than one wife. Women are not REQUIRED to abort a child. Men were not ENTITLED to divorce originally but “culture” led to a certain latitude FOR A PARTICULAR TIME, a time BEFORE Christ, not AFTER Him and His fulfillment of the Law. Men were not REQUIRED to have slaves.
Men WERE, however, required to live according to the Commandment of God. In the time of Moses and to the time of Christ, this involved Mosiac law, the 10 Commandments. For that TIME, “Thou shalt not kill”, for example, was very explicit, giving many examples, in Numbers and Deuteronomy particularly, of sanctions involving premeditated murder, accidental but culpable killing, justifiable homicide, etc., even to the point of noting that if a woman miscarried that restitution must be given FOR THE LOSS OF THE FETUS. The society of the time was FOR the time; Jesus and His teachings were for ALL time, and He fulfilled the law when HE very correctly noted, that “You have been told that to kill your brother is wrong. I tell you that even to be ANGRY with your brother is just as wrong.” Jesus makes it both more difficult and easier to live the Law of God. . .more difficult, because it’s not just ONE little category or action for which we are responsible, but for even the little thoughts of anger, lust, etc. when we GIVE IN TO THEM and ENTERTAIN THEM and yet think we are so righteous because we aren’t actually going against the “Letter of the Mosaic law” by actually KILLING someone. . .and easier, because really the only thing we really need to do is to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES. Treating them the way we do ourselves, if we are neither overly scrupulous or overly lacking in conscience or formation. . .for the overly scrupulous will fall into despair and the overly lacking in conscience will fail to even realize how bad he is.
The Bible doesn’t “explicitly” teach that SLAVERY is wrong, either. There are plenty of examples of people being sold into slavery, etc. However, it was common in the Jewish jubilee–year 50–to release slaves from manumission–however, that involved various fee payments etc. which might not be available, and the practice was, inevitably, that many people were NOT freed. (And of course, that manumission was for Jews, not for other peoples).
Abortion, divorce, polygamy, slavery. . .all of these, and more, are matters of CULTURE. I believe it has been well noted that cultures, traditions, mores etc. may change, but MORALITY does not change. The fact that various cultural patterns led to the above does not mean that God willed them or ordained them, either.
You WILL note, I’m sure, that nowhere are any of the above EXTOLLED or DEMANDED as a matter of course. Men are not REQUIRED to have more than one wife. Women are not REQUIRED to abort a child. Men were not ENTITLED to divorce originally but “culture” led to a certain latitude FOR A PARTICULAR TIME, a time BEFORE Christ, not AFTER Him and His fulfillment of the Law. Men were not REQUIRED to have slaves.
Men WERE, however, required to live according to the Commandment of God. In the time of Moses and to the time of Christ, this involved Mosiac law, the 10 Commandments. For that TIME, “Thou shalt not kill”, for example, was very explicit, giving many examples, in Numbers and Deuteronomy particularly, of sanctions involving premeditated murder, accidental but culpable killing, justifiable homicide, etc., even to the point of noting that if a woman miscarried that restitution must be given FOR THE LOSS OF THE FETUS. The society of the time was FOR the time; Jesus and His teachings were for ALL time, and He fulfilled the law when HE very correctly noted, that “You have been told that to kill your brother is wrong. I tell you that even to be ANGRY with your brother is just as wrong.” Jesus makes it both more difficult and easier to live the Law of God. . .more difficult, because it’s not just ONE little category or action for which we are responsible, but for even the little thoughts of anger, lust, etc. when we GIVE IN TO THEM and ENTERTAIN THEM and yet think we are so righteous because we aren’t actually going against the “Letter of the Mosaic law” by actually KILLING someone. . .and easier, because really the only thing we really need to do is to LOVE OUR NEIGHBOR AS OURSELVES. Treating them the way we do ourselves, if we are neither overly scrupulous or overly lacking in conscience or formation. . .for the overly scrupulous will fall into despair and the overly lacking in conscience will fail to even realize how bad he is.
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
Amazing how common sense can get rationalized away.
Murder is the killing of an innocent human being.
A human fetus is just that, a human being.
Abortion kills the fetal human being.
The human was innocent.
Therefore, abortion is murder.
Do I need to cite the Bible verses that support that murder is wrong, or can you take my word for it that it is there? Which part of the murder definition is objectionable? Killing? Innocent? Human?
Scott
Murder is the killing of an innocent human being.
A human fetus is just that, a human being.
Abortion kills the fetal human being.
The human was innocent.
Therefore, abortion is murder.
Do I need to cite the Bible verses that support that murder is wrong, or can you take my word for it that it is there? Which part of the murder definition is objectionable? Killing? Innocent? Human?
Scott
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