Biblical Reference to the Rapture

[gtrenewed]

Which is exactly the Catholic point. There is more to God’s word than just what is in scripture. There is also Tradition. And yes Tradition and scripture are in harmony.

so which Bible do you use?

There is also the gifts of the Spirit such as the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.

What, I don’t even get an excuse me for not asking first?

 

[paul_c]

There is also the gifts of the Spirit such as the word of wisdom, word of knowledge, tongues and prophecy.

What, I don’t even get an excuse me for not asking first?

You are right, I shouldn’t have assumed that you used a Protestant version of the bible. Forgive my indescretion. So that said, do you?

 

[gtrenewed]

First of all, Judgement means the deciding of whether you go to heaven or hell. note Matthew 25 31-46

You have misplaced this in time and audience otherwise no one is in heaven now and we know Paul went to the third heaven and John had visions of heaven with those in it.
Of what is Mary queen of? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Where is the Lord?

and this from Romans 2:1-11

Note, in both of these passaged, both the righteous believers and the sinful are judged, with the righteous being rewarded with heaven, the evildoers are condemned to hell.

You see we are talking of two different things. Of course God judges. I said the wrath of God is not the same as His judgement in response to another poster. This thread in talking about the rapture talks of escaping tribulation and wrath and I said the believer is not subject to the wrath of God which is in Rev 15 and 16 but may be in the tribulation. Not talking about here and now but the biblical end times. Since we are caught up we have already been declared righteous otherwise 1 Thess 4:13-18 makes no sense.

A believer does not carry his guilt for Jesus carried that guilt. Romans 5 says having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God…and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

You are wrong if you say that as a believer you go through God’s wrath. Punishment is not the same as wrath which is stored up for non-believers.

 

[gtrenewed]

You are right, I shouldn’t have assumed that you used a Protestant version of the bible. Forgive my indescretion. So that said, do you?

Thanks for that I appreciate it and I use both since the nt is the same. My first bible was a New American St.Joseph edition, then a KJV, a NKJV, NIV, NLT, NASB, and the Jerusalem bible used by Mother Angelica.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This thread is getting derailed into sola fide again, and there is a new and interesting topic onto whether and to what extent the Bible is “alive.”

Here’s a new thread on the living Word of God issue.

And here is one on faith, salvation and works.

It would be a shame for this rapture thread to get locked, and the moderators have enough to do, so let’s try to stay on topic here.

 

[paul_c]

You have misplaced this in time and audience otherwise no one is in heaven now and we know Paul went to the third heaven and John had visions of heaven with those in it.
Of what is Mary queen of? To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Where is the Lord?

Heaven is outside of time. God could show them heaven with people in it, with no difficulty at all.

You see we are talking of two different things. Of course God judges. I said the wrath of God is not the same as His judgement in response to another poster. This thread in talking about the rapture talks of escaping tribulation and wrath and I said the believer is not subject to the wrath of God which is in Rev 15 and 16 but may be in the tribulation. Not talking about here and now but the biblical end times. Since we are caught up we have already been declared righteous otherwise 1 Thess 4:13-18 makes no sense.

What are you talking about?
13 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

Paul’s talking about consoling those who’se loved ones have died because those that have already died will rise first, followed by those that are still alive. This says nothing about avoiding the end times.

A believer does not carry his guilt for Jesus carried that guilt. Romans 5 says having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God…and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Paul had already established in Romans 2 that we would all be judged based on our works. He then proceeds to say that works for works sake is also insufficient but it must be because of faith in Jesus.

You are wrong if you say that as a believer you go through God’s wrath. Punishment is not the same as wrath which is stored up for non-believers.

Believers undergo hardships all the time. They are not spared now, and will not be then. They will not undergo hell. however, IF they stay in the state of grace. Belief without works of mercy and love will get you nothing.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This thread is getting derailed into sola fide again, and there is a new and interesting topic onto whether and to what extent the Bible is “alive.”

Here’s a new thread on the living Word of God issue.

And here is one on faith, salvation and works.

It would be a shame for this rapture thread to get locked, and the moderators have enough to do, so let’s try to stay on topic here.

 

[Sonny69]

[BIBLEDRB]Numbers 10:10[/BIBLEDRB]

Note the use of the term “rememberance.” Were the Levitical sacrifices symbolic because they were done in rememberance? Of course not.

Actually it is. The Mass makes Calvary present again; it does not repeat the sacrifice or re-crucify Jesus. It is the fulfillment of this prophecy:

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 1:11[/BIBLEDRB]

Notice that it says “there is sacrifice” (not “are sacrifices”) and “a clean oblation” or “a pure offering” (not “clean oblations/pure offerings”).

Or they could just go to daily Mass and have basically the whole Bible read to them. You do realize that half of the Mass is just reading the Bible, preaching on it, and praying about what was read, right?

Whatever you believe is true; I disagree with your interpretation of the truth.

 

[Sonny69]

If to be “saved” one must believe the correct doctrine, and yet the correct doctrine cannot be discerned without ample study in Scripture, then salvation is not by faith alone but rather by a work: Bible study.

You missed the point; that’s okay. I think you know what I was trying to convey. One cannot believe unless the Lord allows one to believe. Acts 14.

 

[Cat_Herder]

This thread is getting derailed into sola fide again, and there is a new and interesting topic onto whether and to what extent the Bible is “alive.”

Here’s a new thread on the living Word of God issue.

And here is one on faith, salvation and works.

It would be a shame for this rapture thread to get locked, and the moderators have enough to do, so let’s try to stay on topic here.

 

[Michael_Francis]

This thread is getting derailed into sola fide again, and there is a new and interesting topic onto whether and to what extent the Bible is “alive.”

Here’s a new thread on the living Word of God issue.

And here is one on faith, salvation and works.

It would be a shame for this rapture thread to get locked, and the moderators have enough to do, so let’s try to stay on topic here.

[sign1]What he said…Last warning![/sign1]

UPDATE: I have just deleted about 20 off topic posts to help get you guys back on topic.

 

[gtrenewed]

This is one of the huge errors of the evangelicals. True, you need to be saved and then sanctified, but unless you achieve both, you will not go to heaven. Belief alone is only the first step of getting to heaven. You also need to be baptized (John 3, Acts 2), partake of the sacraments particularly the eucharist (John 6, 1Corithians 11), follow the commandments (Matthew 19), love God and neighbor, and do works of mercy (matthew 25).

Rom 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in our heart that God nraised Him from the dead you will be saved; for with the heart a person believes resulting in righteousness and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

As my growth in the Spirit takes place from my spirit I will do good works and will follow and will obey Jesus. I am saved but judged for rewards on how well I have to followed the commandments, how many and of what kind of works of mercy I did and how often, etc. The only way I lose salvation is by denying Jesus and the work He accomplished, blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

This is hilarious. Aren’t you the one who believes that the only thing required to get to heaven is to believe that Jesus will save you?

Heaven is not the goal, my place in heaven is the reward. I am not looking to get to heaven per se, I am looking to follow Jesus and He will get me there for He said He will complete the good work He started in me.

Honestly, Evangelicals put much more emphasis on this than do Catholics. If you were really confident in your faith, you wouldn’t worry about the end times.

To a believer it is not worry it is blessing; Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

We are all tested with the good and the bad in life. That is how our character is judged and how we decide whether we will love or not in life’s extreme moments. If that includes the wrath, so be it.

We are all tested that is true but it is to refine us not destroy us which is what the wrath of God is. Plus it cannot include wrath for He says we are not subject to His wrath as believers. Rom 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Of course it is. I have been reading the bible daily since I was 13 and I now read 5 chapters a day, plus whatever extra I need for apologetics. Plus I get 3 readings a day at mass . Evangelicals are not the only ones to read the Bible… It IS a Catholic book after all…

It is not how much you read but how much you believe and receive. Jesus is the Word of God who came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become the children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:11-13

 

[gtrenewed]

Sorry, I was busy composing #364 and therefore did not see the warning until I submitted my reply.

 

[Sonny69]

Where does the word Rapture appear?
Here, let’s take a really good look, starting from verse 13.

13 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.* 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the ***coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

So, we understand that Paul is speaking to comfort those who have lost loved ones while waiting for the Second Coming. And then, he speaks how the Dead in Christ will rise first (which will happen at the Second Coming), and then those left will be with Christ and with those who have died, at the SECOND COMING. It does not say that Christ will come and take away the believers with him for 7 years.

There is no description whatsoever of people disappearing, and then coming back with the Lord in a Third Coming. This is false teaching.

No disrespect, but do you see what you actually posted from the written Word. There is no plainer Scripture than that, The dead will rise first, they have six feet further to go…LOL, then in verse 17 the rest who are alive will be “caught up” in the air to meet the Lord in the clouds.

The guess what; no more Christians left on earth and let the hand of God’s restraining grace be removed and pity the poor folk left behind. Now it is tribulation time and time to deal with the Jews as promised and with the wicked as God has promised; He now has his bride, the church.

 

[Cruxis117]

No disrespect, but do you see what you actually posted from the written Word. There is no plainer Scripture than that, The dead will rise first, they have six feet further to go…LOL, then in verse 17 the rest who are alive will be “caught up” in the air to meet the Lord in the clouds.

The guess what; no more Christians left on earth and let the hand of God’s restraining grace be removed and pity the poor folk left behind. Now it is tribulation time and time to deal with the Jews as promised and with the wicked as God has promised; He now has his bride, the church.

I’m not sure what you mean. This is a clear, pure example of the Second Coming. And NOT of the Rapture.

There is only one time of the Resurrection of the Dead, which happens when Christ returns. There is no scriptural evidence to suggest otherwise. Because as you can clearly see, this bible verse speaks of that resurrection, and then we will have the Day of Judgement.

 

[Sonny69]

Hmm…that’s funny. You obviously have misunderstandings about what I see and what I comprehend.

I believe in Christ as the Savior of Mankind, Son of God and the High Priest, Prophet, and King, who is the Living Word of God, who was resurrected and reigns with his Father, at his right hand.

Now, I also believe that through Faith (Romans 3: 21-24) and Works (James 2: 14-26), we shall complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions. (Colossians 1:24-26) I believe that whoevers believes in Christ may not perish, but will have eternal life (John 3:16). I believe that there are those who have fallen under false prophets (2 Peter 2:1-3), and ultimately that those who believe in the Rapture teach false doctrine. This is evident in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, which speaks of the Second Coming, as well as Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12, which speak of the “rapture” (gathering of believers) and the tribulation together, with one time of Christ returning, the Second Coming.

There are no Three Comings. There will be no Rapture, because there is not even an iota of biblical proof for such folly. Whereas as you can see in my above statement, all of what I have said is Scriptural.

I would suggest you look for some material written by Carl Olsen, who has perfectly shown why this belief is false. Before you speak of what I can comprehend, check yourself first.

I have a question. If He is at the right hand and I agree because I read throughout the NT after the ascension, then how can He be there in the flesh at all the Mass’s that are going on continually around the world at anygiven time? I can see the omnipresent spirit perhaps, but not Jesus in the flesh. He was never in two places at once while in the flesh as man anytime on earth and apparently He sits in one place at the right hand of the Father according to many places in the NT. I have never understood that Catholic teaching and not sure I am able to.

 

[Cruxis117]

I have a question. If He is at the right hand and I agree because I read throughout the NT after the ascension, then how can He be there in the flesh at all the Mass’s that are going on continually around the world at anygiven time? I can see the omnipresent spirit perhaps, but not Jesus in the flesh. He was never in two places at once while in the flesh as man anytime on earth and apparently He sits in one place at the right hand of the Father according to many places in the NT. I have never understood that Catholic teaching and not sure I am able to.

Let us focus on the Rapture and biblical verses supporting/not supporting it, and maybe soemone will open a Eucharistic thread later.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
This is one of the huge errors of the evangelicals. True, you need to be saved and then sanctified, but unless you achieve both, you will not go to heaven. Belief alone is only the first step of getting to heaven. You also need to be baptized (John 3, Acts 2), partake of the sacraments particularly the eucharist (John 6, 1Corithians 11), follow the commandments (Matthew 19), love God and neighbor, and do works of mercy (matthew 25).

Again, you are saved. But being saved and going to heaven are not synonymous. Once you are saved, you must stay in the state of grace. You describe that as not denying Jesus, but we know it takes more than avoiding blasphemy. You must actually follow Jesus and do his will, becoming holy, to enter Heaven.

Quote:

This is hilarious. Aren’t you the one who believes that the only thing required to get to heaven is to believe that Jesus will save you?

So heaven is not your goal, you want something more than being with Jesus for ever? What kind of rewards do you expect anyway?

Quote:
Honestly, Evangelicals put much more emphasis on this than do Catholics. If you were really confident in your faith, you wouldn’t worry about the end times.

yes, and then Jesus proceeded to warn the 7 churches of what they were doing wrong. It had nothing to do with the rapture… There is no rapture in scripture or in the tradition of the church. it is strictly a modern literary innovation…

Quote:
We are all tested with the good and the bad in life. That is how our character is judged and how we decide whether we will love or not in life’s extreme moments. If that includes the wrath, so be it.

Of course there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ, They are the ones who are going to heaven. This does not mean that they will be spared the tribulations of the endtimes. That is not condemnation, but testing.

Quote:
Of course it is. I have been reading the bible daily since I was 13 and I now read 5 chapters a day, plus whatever extra I need for apologetics. Plus I get 3 readings a day at mass . Evangelicals are not the only ones to read the Bible… It IS a Catholic book after all…

 

[Sonny69]

We do have to complete the job as no one is automatically saved. That does not mean that Christ’s sacrifice was in any way insufficient to pay for all sins.

Is Christ’s sacrifice somehow lacking because people have to do something, such as having faith, in order to be saved?

Do you believe that the Father chose (elected) who would be redeemed before time or people even were created?

 

[Cruxis117]

Do you believe that the Father chose (elected) who would be redeemed before time or people even were created?

Guys, let us focus ON THE RAPTURE. Please. I enjoy this thread and it doesn’t need to be closed.

Show me the core verses that make up the Rapture belief, please.