Biden to lead delegation for new pope's installation

[Fogwalker]

mymamamary:
**Correct, however this man is a public example and thus also causes the sin of scandal. **

His sin of disobedience is displayed in public, but I would argue that the scandal isn’t truly grave unless he is actually influencing people’s morality because of his position. While I think that his beliefs happen to be a reflection of the beliefs of a statistical majority of American Catholics, I very much doubt that anyone looks to Joe Biden for moral guidance.

If Biden were a priest, a bishop, a catechist, or even just a plain lay person who held his own morality up as an example for others, then I agree that excommunication would be warranted. But Biden has always been adamant (in the interviews that I have seen) that his disagreement with Church teaching is a personal one and that he does not have any intention of changing Church teaching.

 

[zz912]

two bishops

Very telling how quick some are to jump in and “correct” others about writing the blatant truth that cafeteria Catholics do not follow the faith. And yet then tells a falsehood about a Republican Catholic…

 

[Fogwalker]

Very telling how quick some are to jump in and “correct” others about writing the blatant truth that cafeteria Catholics do not follow the faith. And yet then tells a falsehood about a Republican Catholic…

I don’t see anyone on this thread “correcting” anyone who says that “cafeteria Catholics” do not follow the faith. I see different suggestions on what the proper Christian response is to those people and to their beliefs.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I’m glad to see some charity towards Biden in this thread. I think Biden is a great representative of the American Church as a whole. Sad though it may be, a majority of American Catholics share Biden’s un-Catholic views on some key teachings, so he represents the American Church in that way, but also, Biden is willing to share his feelings about faith on a national stage. What a humble, honest message to send to Pope Francis by Biden’s presence: “Your Holiness, here is the American Church, not perfect, but willing to be honest and open about our feelings, and here to listen to what you have to say.”

Biden does not speak for the American Church. His views on abortion and marriage are opposed to the Catholic teaching

 

[april32010]

Very telling how quick some are to jump in and “correct” others about writing the blatant truth that cafeteria Catholics do not follow the faith. And yet then tells a falsehood about a Republican Catholic…

are you accusing me of something ? if so spit it out.

 

[GAHere]

Thank goodness many of the posters responding here will be in a position to become pope someday. Honestly cannot understand the uncharitable responses here. How can you forget how important it is for sinners to have opportunities to be in the presence of Christ? Why would anyone wish to minimize the opportunities for the seeds of true conversion to be planted?

I agree with Fogwalker

Sad though it may be, a majority of American Catholics share Biden’s un-Catholic views on some key teachings, so he represents the American Church in that way,

Biden represents the American Catholics at this time. I think it’s great that he will have an opportunity to meet Pope Francis. May the holy spirit touch him in a significant way during this season of lent through this opportunity. I’d much rather the Catholic VP attend over the non-Catholic President.

 

[_Abyssinia]

The ultimate Leftwing American Catholic Delegation
Joe Biden
Nancy Pelosi
John Kerry
Dick Durbin
Bob Menendez

Dick Durbin’s home Church told him he can not take Communion:

time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1101040621-650693,00.html

Archbishop Burke said he would not give communion to John Kerry in 2004 because of his views on abortion:

cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/06/politics/main610547.shtml

Bishop Joseph Francis Martino said he would refuse Biden Communion in the diocese because of Biden’s views on abortion in Scranton, PA, Biden’s hometown:

nytimes.com/2008/09/17/us/politics/17catholics.html?bl&ex=1221883200&en=1e3acb5115249581&ei=5087%0A

Not sure where things stand for Bob Menedenz or Nancy Pelosi

 

[april32010]

Very telling how quick some are to jump in and “correct” others about writing the blatant truth that cafeteria Catholics do not follow the faith. And yet then tells a falsehood about a Republican Catholic…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/federal-budget/upload/Letter-to-Congress-Federal-Budget-2012-03-06.pdf

 

[april32010]

are you accusing me of something ? if so spit it out.

apologies ,misread your post

 

[Fogwalker]

Biden does not speak for the American Church. His views on abortion and marriage are opposed to the Catholic teaching

Agreed. I was trying to say that Biden shares the beliefs of a statistical majority of American Catholics. So here’s the setup: Pope Francis saying a Mass that will be nationally televised in the US, imparting a homily with the face of Joe Biden right in front of him, confident that if his message can reach Biden, it will likely touch tens of millions of others who think like Biden does. What an opportunity for the Holy Spirit! Pray now!

 

[GAHere]

Agreed. I was trying to say that Biden shares the beliefs of a statistical majority of American Catholics. So here’s the setup: Pope Francis saying a Mass that will be nationally televised in the US, imparting a homily with the face of Joe Biden right in front of him, confident that if his message can reach Biden, it will likely touch tens of millions of others who think like Biden does. What an opportunity for the Holy Spirit! Pray now!

Exactly. The conversion needed here at home can begin with that visit. We should be praying for him so that he will be moved to correct his positions and find the courage to bring the correct message home.

 

[_Abyssinia]

Agreed. I was trying to say that Biden shares the beliefs of a statistical majority of American Catholics. So here’s the setup: Pope Francis saying a Mass that will be nationally televised in the US, imparting a homily with the face of Joe Biden right in front of him, confident that if his message can reach Biden, it will likely touch tens of millions of others who think like Biden does. What an opportunity for the Holy Spirit! Pray now!

What Biden shares in views with Catholics in America is with those that do not understand or agree with Church teaching. I hope the visit to Rome will change Biden’s views on these issues but I believe you have to open to change for the Holy Spirit to work in you, and Biden has recently promoted redefining marriage and abortion, so I do not have a lot of faith his views can be changed if he does not want them to be changed

Almost always when I have heard of an atheist convert to faith it was because they were open to change and then the Holy spirit worked through them

If Biden, like other people who are Catholic, believe the Church is wrong on these issues, and they are the right, which I guess they must believe to take their dissent seriously, how can the Holy spirit work in them when they have shut themselves off in way?

 

[BigBlueCane]

What Biden shares in views with Catholics in America is with those that do not understand or agree with Church teaching. I hope the visit to Rome will change Biden’s views on these issues but I believe you have to open to change for the Holy Spirit to work in you, and Biden has recently promoted redefining marriage and abortion, so I do not have a lot of faith his views can be changed if he does not want them to be changed

Almost always when I have heard of an atheist convert to faith it was because they were open to change and then the Holy spirit worked through them

If Biden, like other people who are Catholic, believe the Church is wrong on these issues, and they are the right, which I guess they must believe to take their dissent seriously, how can the Holy spirit work in them when they have shut themselves off in way?

I don’t think its that they think so much that they are wrong on the issue but on abortion for example it is very possible and reasonable to be against it personally but favor people having the choice. On gay marriage that is purely an american legal issue. You cannot have discriminatory laws against a group of individuals.

 

[Chipper]

I agree with Fogwalker

Biden represents the American Catholics at this time. I think it’s great that he will have an opportunity to meet Pope Francis. May the holy spirit touch him in a significant way during this season of lent through this opportunity. I’d much rather the Catholic VP attend over the non-Catholic President.

Well, I am not an “American Catholic”. I was born and live in Texas. I will never be an "American Catholic. I am a Catholic of the Latin Rite, or as the protestants like to call me – “Roman Catholic”.

So if Biden represents “American Catholic”, then this must be the beginnings of a new protestant religion? - The otherwise infamous “American Catholics”.

 

[SonSearcher]

I meant no such comparison, my apologies. No one person is a perfect model of the 78 million members of the Catholic Church in the United States, Joe Biden especially. What I was trying to convey is that a disturbingly large percentage of those 78 million people who identify themselves as Catholic - some polls say around half - are far closer to Joe Biden’s ideology than to Timothy Dolan’s.

Whether our church chooses to humbly serve and engage those people or excommunicate them en masse is not my decision to make and I will respect whatever decision the Church makes on the matter. But for my part, I pray for the former.

But maybe that is the problem the “disturbingly large percentage” of American Catholics in the US who identify as Catholic but choose to disobey can just point to Joe Biden and say well he can do it. So I think it is the people who need to humbly serve the Church in obedience not the Church appease them and coddle them into a nice warm fuzzy condition.

 

[BillyT926]

I don’t think its that they think so much that they are wrong on the issue but on abortion for example it is very possible and reasonable to be against it personally but favor people having the choice. On gay marriage that is purely an american legal issue. You cannot have discriminatory laws against a group of individuals.

spare me the “discriminatory laws” garbage
redefining what marriage is to appease people is not a civil right

 

[Chipper]

You cannot have discriminatory laws against a group of individuals.

"New Pope Francis I is an ardent opponent of same-sex marriage, in coincidence with traditional Catholic belief. In 2010, he wrote, “Let’s not be naïve, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Okay man, the Pope thinks it;s okay to be discriminatory towards your “group of individuals”. I agree with our new Pope 100%.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I don’t think its that they think so much that they are wrong on the issue but on abortion for example it is very possible and reasonable to be against it personally but favor people having the choice. On gay marriage that is purely an american legal issue. You cannot have discriminatory laws against a group of individuals.

If you believe life begins at conception you can not believe that there is any exemption for abortion, you would not support on demand abortion

I bet abortion is the only issue that Joe biden uses the argument that he is personally against but thinks everybody else should have choice

Biden has no problem forcing his views on the ACA on people that do nto agree with it. So the, I am personally against … but do want to give others a choice, is used selectively

“Any individual who says he can advocate for and enable the practice of abortion and claims that he can still be a Catholic in good standing, has a very serious problem with integrity which any community can ignore only at its own peril.”

Politicians who live in such a disintegrated way are a matter of concern not only to Catholics, but to “society itself,” Bishop Brandt said.

“It is a cause of very serious concern for all the citizenry about a matter of integrity. It is a very serious concern about placing public trust in a person who has demonstrated public misrepresentation.”

patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2012/10/the-election-bishop-brandt-discusses-the-key-issues-for-catholics

Richard Berquist argues same sex ‘marriage’ would discriminate:

…

The paradoxical result of all this is that while there is no discrimination in refusing to recognize the homosexual relationship as marriage – since it is essentially different from the heterosexual relationship – there would be discrimination in granting the privileges of marriage to homosexual couples while denying them to other personal friendships.

Imagine two dear friends of the same sex, or a brother and sister who live together. Although their relationships would not involve sex, they might find it advantageous to enjoy the legal and economic privileges of marriage. Why would their claim for these benefits be any less reasonable than the claims of homosexual couples?

So if we wish to subsidize homosexual friendships, we must, to avoid discrimination, subsidize all loving personal friendships. If that is absurd, so is gay marriage."

…For almost two centuries, equality before the law had been denied to Americans of African descent; that blatant injustice was challenged by a movement of moral persuasion and legal maneuver; the movement was ultimately vindicated by a change of hearts, minds, and statutes. If then, on matters of race, why not now, on the question of who can marry? That’s the argument; it has considerable emotive power.
But it’s wrong.

In their recent book, What Is Marriage? Man and Woman: A Defense (Encounter Books), three Catholic thinkers with Princeton connections—Robert P. George (who holds Woodrow Wilson’s old chair at that eminent university) and two of his former students, Sherif Girgis and Ryan Anderson—argue persuasively, and on grounds of reason, that America can’t arrive at a serious answer to this question—Should government redefine marriage to include same-sex partnerships?—by appealing to equality.

Why not? Because every marriage policy in every polity known to history draws boundaries, excluding some types of relationships from marriage. Parents can’t marry their children. Brothers and sisters can’t marry. People beneath a certain age can’t marry. People who are already married can’t marry.

In other words, governments, whether autocratic, aristocratic, monarchical, or democratic, have always “discriminated”—i.e., made distinctions—in their marriage laws. And in that sense, there is no “equality” issue in marriage law similar to the equality that racial minorities rightly sought, and won, in the civil rights movement."

firstthings.com/onthesquare/2013/01/the-marriage-debate-i-confusions-about-lsquoequalityrsquo-and-lsquodiscriminationrsquo

 

[ProVobis]

I’d much rather the Catholic VP attend over the non-Catholic President.

Good point.

 

[Presurmksdimnds]

I think that Pope Francis should take the opportunity to publicly excommunicate Biden as soon as he meets the American delegation. Biden, after all, should have been excommunicated long ago.

I agree.

I understand why Biden must go.

But what an embarrassing representative for American Catholics.