Big Bang cannot be caused

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bahman
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Aloysium said:
I would suggest you give further thought to the nature of time and what timelessness implies. Your idea of change is related to time. God is eternal. I know the reality can be difficult to express in words, but “there is no reference point in which God could create” is difficult to understand. Again, God is only in time insofar as He is Father to all moments. Eternal, He is in loving relation to His creation, which exists in time.
Click to expand...
This is hard to explain but lets give it another try. God knows everything including the states of universe. Creation of universe is one of these states at which there is nothing before it but God. Consider all states of universe as frames of a movie. God however sustain all states of universe. To have a right dynamic God has to create and sustain each state at a right time. This means that we need a reference point in God’s mind which changes by time. This is impossible since God cannot change.

We don’t need any reference point if creation is self sustain. God’s existence and creation simply are at the same point.
 
Bahman said:
This is hard to explain but lets give it another try. God knows everything including the states of universe. Creation of universe is one of these states at which there is nothing before it but God. Consider all states of universe as frames of a movie. God however sustain all states of universe. To have a right dynamic God has to create and sustain each state at a right time. This means that we need a reference point in God’s mind which changes by time. This is impossible since God cannot change.

We don’t need any reference point if creation is self sustain. God’s existence and creation simply are at the same point.
Click to expand...
A dynamic, unchanging God is present in all moments that He knows eternally as their Source. God’s existence transcends each “point” that He brings into being.

God as He is understood in Catholicism is a Trinity of Persons and One as such. What this implies is that He is Love. Being therefore is relational. Our realtionship with God, each other and nature has been damaged - it can be very far from loving.

I think if you consider being as being relational, it might make more sense as to how God and creation, time and eternity, fit together. The reference point you talk about might be the connection between the person and his Maker. That changes with time but remains the same in terms of its being a loving act of creation. God who meets His creatures in all time and space remains essentially unchanged as we and our relationship with Him, change. Also, this all happens within eternity, which would be the totality of God’s relationships with all he has created.

I think I’m saying the same thing over and over.
 
Vico said:
God does not need to change for creation to be what it is, and does not change.
Click to expand...
It seems to me that God does change. For example, He came down from heaven and became man. At one time He was not man, at a later time, He came down from heaven and became man. This is obviously a change.
 
Tomdstone said:
It seems to me that God does change. For example, He came down from heaven and became man. At one time He was not man, at a later time, He came down from heaven and became man. This is obviously a change.
Click to expand...
It is a revelation in time of Gods infinite and eternal love.
 
Tomdstone said:
It seems to me that God does change. For example, He came down from heaven and became man. At one time He was not man, at a later time, He came down from heaven and became man. This is obviously a change.
Click to expand...
The divine nature does not change.
 
Aloysium said:
A dynamic, unchanging God is present in all moments that He knows eternally as their Source. God’s existence transcends each “point” that He brings into being.
Click to expand...
God cannot be dynamic and changeless.
Aloysium said:
God as He is understood in Catholicism is a Trinity of Persons and One as such. What this implies is that He is Love. Being therefore is relational. Our realtionship with God, each other and nature has been damaged - it can be very far from loving.

I think if you consider being as being relational, it might make more sense as to how God and creation, time and eternity, fit together. The reference point you talk about might be the connection between the person and his Maker. That changes with time but remains the same in terms of its being a loving act of creation. God who meets His creatures in all time and space remains essentially unchanged as we and our relationship with Him, change. Also, this all happens within eternity, which would be the totality of God’s relationships with all he has created.

I think I’m saying the same thing over and over.
Click to expand...
I think that you didn’t understand my comment well.
 
Vico said:
God does not need to change for creation to be what it is, and does not change. Time can be subjective having no reality with real events having just order.
Click to expand...
Time can be illusion. We are however talking about change. God has to change if He is supposed to sustain creation as it explained in the argument.
 
Bahman said:
God has to change if He is supposed to sustain creation as it explained in the argument.
Click to expand...
I think that Holy Scripture documents that God changes in various ways such as He gets angry and He changes His mind about things.
 
Bahman said:
God has to change if He is supposed to sustain creation as it explained in the argument.
Click to expand...
I think so. Holy Scripture documents that God changes in various ways such as He gets angry and He changes His mind about things and He responds to our prayers.
 
Bahman said:
Time can be illusion. We are however talking about change. God has to change if He is supposed to sustain creation as it explained in the argument.
Click to expand...
No, God does not have to change to sustain. All things, due to necessary causes, or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained per His all-embracing purpose.
 
Some random thoughts on physical change, just for something to do on a long train ride:

A particle moving at a constant velocity relative to my position is not changing.
It maintains its momentum and kinetic energy.
What changes is the distance between myself and the particle.
I don’t change and it doesn’t change.
Something is changing and even that change, the relationship that exists between us, is not changing.
The physical laws that describe this do not change.
Something happens although nothing changes.
I don’t think any of this applies to God, who is not a principle, not a force or energy, not a thing, but rather the eternal Mind (if you will) who brings all this mystery and wonder into existence.
 
Aloysium said:
. . . Through all this, God remains God: Personal Being as an eternal Act of infinite Divine Love, Beauty, and Truth, joyous. . .
Click to expand...
Going off on a side track:

God does not change because He is goodness itself. Whatever He does is an expression of His goodness and love.

The physical universe does not really change although on the surface everything is always in motion. It’s laws are set and the cosmic show plays itself out.

We, on the other hand exist as eternal beings in time. Who we are forever, is determined by our choices as we face them in life. Our existence is centred on Existence itself. It is the primary relationship from which all others arise. We grow closer to God the more we give ourselves to Him as the ultimate truth and act of love. Appropriating what is His, making ourselves rather that God, the centre of our garden, our life on earth, we drift further from what is our true self. We become either Christ-like or demonic through our actions. We change into the person we want to be.

God never changes.
 
Vico said:
No, God does not have to change to sustain. All things, due to necessary causes, or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained per His all-embracing purpose.
Click to expand...
That means that you didn’t understand my argument. How a changeless being can sustain a dynamic universe? It can’t since each state of universe is actual at now. God knows all states of universe but actual state of universe changes with time meaning that there should be a point of reference in God’s mind to track of the actual state.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top