Bigotry...

[YankeeRC]

Injustice is one of the doctrines our Church teaches us to combat. You could speak to her about this to get to heart of the matter. Maybe even suggest a “give a penny, take a penny” dish. Perhaps she’ll enlighten you as to her motives, but then again she may never let you go without exact change in the future .

 

[mdrummer5]

Injustice is one of the doctrines our Church teaches us to combat. You could speak to her about this to get to heart of the matter. Maybe even suggest a “give a penny, take a penny” dish. Perhaps she’ll enlighten you as to her motives, but then again she may never let you go without exact change in the future .

True… plus I might offend her and not get my “regular customer” perks

 

[atheistgirl]

It would be their way of showing respect would it not? Whether or not you or I respect that same person is irrelevant.

Theyre not showing respect to anyone in particular. Many times, they dont actually know anyone in prison personally. Theyre empathising with those locked up for hideous crimes and extending that out into the free world. It’s a look at me, I dont care about your rules, or your laws, or your civility or what you think is or isnt acceptable - I’ll do what I like, and Id love you to try and stop me, so I can show you what I can do.
They want people to fear them, because they equate fear with respect. They dont respect those in prison, they want to be like them, but on the outside, becuase they think they get respect through fear.

 

[mdrummer5]

Theyre not showing respect to anyone in particular. Many times, they dont actually know anyone in prison personally. Theyre empathising with those locked up for hideous crimes and extending that out into the free world. It’s a look at me, I dont care about your rules, or your laws, or your civility or what you think is or isnt acceptable - I’ll do what I like, and Id love you to try and stop me, so I can show you what I can do.
They want people to fear them, because they equate fear with respect. They dont respect those in prison, they want to be like them, but on the outside, becuase they think they get respect through fear.

Interesting… that being the case then… I take back what I said about it being noble and reiterate it’s still ridiculous.

Plus, I know what they CAN’T do… they can’t outrun the cops with their pants like that

 

[Della]

I realize this and NEVER stated anything to the contrary but even that goes both ways. Even now you’re quick to assume that I’m somehow over sensitive to such things and that it’s obviously a problem with my perception when you’ve not seen what I’ve seen.

I made no assumption about you at all. I was responding to another person’s post.

This is an ignorant statement. This is the same kind of statement as someone hearing a black man speak articulately and say “you sound like a white guy”. No… he sounds intelligent.

In this case… the man in question is not “dressing like a black guy” or hanging on to his “black identity” he’s dressing like a young person who doesn’t realize that he looks ridiculous that way.

Edit: To clarify… would you say that if he started wearing a suit and tie every day that he let go of his “black identity”?

No. I made no “ignorant statement” here. What I wrote is simply true. Young people adopt all sorts of odd dress in order to set themselves apart from adults–to define who they believe they are. White kids do it too, of course. Most grow out of it and become ordinary people. That’s my point.

I believe you are overly sensitive about race, goodness only knows why. No one person can right every wrong in the world. It’s fine to have a sense of justice that is aware of the needs of others, but it can get in the way of other more important things in our lives. As you learn what it means to be Catholic you will come to see how to balance these things. It takes many years and a lot of self-honesty, which I’m sure you have in abundance. It also requires patience. And that is something one can only obtain through time and discipline.

 

[atheistgirl]

Interesting… that being the case then… I take back what I said about it being noble and reiterate it’s still ridiculous.

Plus, I know what they CAN’T do… they can’t outrun the cops with their pants like that

You cant know the amount of times in my mind I found myself stooped down with hands outstretched just itching to pull those pants down and run away laughing watching them fumble and fall all over the place trying to get up and chase me

 

[mdrummer5]

No. I made no “ignorant statement” here. What I wrote is simply true. Young people adopt all sorts of odd dress in order to set themselves apart from adults

That’s not what you said… you said:

Young black men who dress the way you described are trying to hang onto their black identity

Those are two ENTIRELY different statements.

 

[mdrummer5]

You cant know the amount of times in my mind I found myself stooped down with hands outstretched just itching to pull those pants down and run away laughing watching them fumble and fall all over the place trying to get up and chase me

Yea… kinda hard to earn respect by fear when you can be taken down so easily lol.

 

[Della]

That’s not what you said… you said:

Those are two ENTIRELY different statements.

If you want to think so I can help it. It’s NOT an entirely different thing. And frankly, I don’t care what you think. Believe what you want. But why you wanted to talk about this if you won’t let what others have to say penetrate you mind I don’t know. Goodbye and good luck telling some hard working woman who has to put up with all kinds of guff and nonsense from people all day long how wrong she is. That will be the end of any special treatment she had been giving you, that’s for sure.

 

[mark_a]

One day a few months or so ago the man in front of me at the checkout happened to be black and was dressed “thuggishly” (pants halfway to his knees, basketball sneakers untied and loose etc.)

I must admit that I prejudge people based on dress, not race, all the time. If you don’t want to be judged to be a thug, why dress like one?

Which reminds me of a sign I saw at a convenience store’s front door:
“Shirt and shoes on, pants up, period!”

 

[estesbob]

This is honestly going to be me just venting something that’s been bothering me for awhile.

I work in a large office building downtown in a fairly large city. On the first floor there is a little shop that carries mostly snack food items and drinks. The same lady is there day in and day out, I believe she’s part owner.

One day a few months or so ago the man in front of me at the checkout happened to be black and was dressed “thuggishly” (pants halfway to his knees, basketball sneakers untied and loose etc.) She gave him his total and he was a few cents shy of being able to pay it without breaking a larger bill, he turned to me and asked me if I had a nickel which I gave him. He thanks me and leaves. She then proceeds to complain to me about him having done that and said that she’s been asked the same thing before and was upset that she’d apparently been accused of being prejudiced when she’s said no. Seeing her so angry I couldn’t help but say to myself that she probably is.

Since then there have been at least three occasions where she confirmed this for me. Once I was a bit shy of my total and offered to come back to my desk to get change. She said “just get it next time” which I found perfectly acceptable as I do go there at least a few times a week. However, when I went down there later that same day she scoffed at me when I presented her with my change and told me to forget it. She’s done that another time since then but today… today is what really made me angry about it. I got myself a Big Texas Cinnamon Roll and some Peace Tea (breakfast of champions) and gave her $2.10 when my total was $2.06 she gave me one of my nickels back. Sure it’s only 1 cent… but knowing how she’d have reacted had I walked in off the street in different clothes it really bothered me.

Again… there’s no point to this… I just wanted to vent. I think the only thing worse than a bigot is someone who doesn’t even realize they are.

So basically you’re mad at her for being nice to you?

 

[mdrummer5]

So basically you’re mad at her for being nice to you?

Not for being nice to me. Because she chose not to extend that same courtesy to another human being. Whether it was because he was black, dressed differently or what I don’t claim to know… I just think it’s wrong.

If you want to think so I can help it. It’s NOT an entirely different thing.

Just for clarity the two statements in question were

“Young people adopt all sorts of odd dress in order to set themselves apart from adults”

and

“Young black men who dress the way you described are trying to hang onto their black identity”

I’m perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in that your intent may have been the same and that you didn’t mean for it to sound the way it does. But that’s the problem… you don’t even realize why it sounds wrong.

The first statement I would agree with. In the second one you’re essentially saying that a black man is identified by dressing that way. The next time you speak with a black man in a suit ask him what he thinks of your theory and word it to him just like that. Better yet ask him “excuse me, why have you let go of your black identity by wearing a suit?”

 

[estesbob]

Not for being nice to me. Because she chose not to extend that same courtesy to another human being. Whether it was because he was black, dressed differently or what I don’t claim to know… I just think it’s wrong.

?"

And you just assumed she was a racist because you saw exactly one interaction she had with a black man and assumed that her displeasure with him was based on the color of his skin. You have no idea whether his not having change is an everyday occurrence or whether he is rude to her on a regular basis. You have formed a negative opinion of this woman based on nothing more than a two-minute interaction she had with another customer, even though your personal experience with their on multiple occasions and this is a kind and generous person.

Our culture has become so race conscious that people have little idea of what truracism is.

 

[mdrummer5]

And you just assumed she was a racist because you saw exactly one interaction she had with a black man and assumed that her displeasure with him was based on the color of his skin. You have no idea whether his not having change is an everyday occurrence or whether he is rude to her on a regular basis. You have formed a negative opinion of this woman based on nothing more than a two-minute interaction she had with another customer, even though your personal experience with their on multiple occasions and this is a kind and generous person.

Our culture has become so race conscious that people have little idea of what truracism is.

You assume too much here. I’ve already stated repeatedly that I’ve witnessed such things from her more than once and that this was simply the catalyst that caused me to want to vent about it.

I have also already stated that I did NOT claim to know her motives. Her motives are irrelevant… whether it was his skin, his clothing or the way he spoke I can’t say nor did I claim to be able to.

I will not get into my personal history on this but I assure you I’m well aware of what “true racism” is. Notice the title of the thread isn’t racism… it’s bigotry. Similar terms but there is a difference.

 

[YankeeRC]

This may or may not help here, mdrummer5.

Just today I noticed the signature of a poster here on the forums called pnewton. It really caught my eye and made me think of this thread right away. It wholly embraces the point I was trying to make in my posts yesterday. The added beneft is it has the backing of the Catholic Catechism :

*My generic message of the year is from the Catechism, sect. 2478. It is good advice for forum reading.

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it.(St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises) *

So with any further comment, I just put that out there as a sound option for all of us. Myself more than anyone I know:thumbsup:

 

[mdrummer5]

This may or may not help here, mdrummer5.

Just today I noticed the signature of a poster here on the forums called pnewton. It really caught my eye and made me think of this thread right away. It wholly embraces the point I was trying to make in my posts yesterday. The added beneft is it has the backing of the Catholic Catechism :

*My generic message of the year is from the Catechism, sect. 2478. It is good advice for forum reading.

To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor’s thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another’s statement than to condemn it.(St. Ignatius of Loyola, Spiritual Exercises) *

So with any further comment, I just put that out there as a sound option for all of us. Myself more than anyone I know:thumbsup:

I totally agree… however…

I may have erred in my original post by not conveying properly that this was not an isolated incident as I have pointed out several times.

Also, something that I’m completely unable to convey is the tone in her voice and look of contempt when I’ve seen such actions from her.

I do appreciate the thought some have put into this in saying that it may be my issue. But I stand by what I’ve said because I was witness to these things. The other concern I have is that people have been awfully quick to assert that I may be over sensitive without considering that they may not be sensitive enough in such matters.

The contradictions in Della’s two statements for example. Her intent may have been the same and perfectly innocent but the wording whether she chooses to realize it or not is ignorant. I would ask anyone who disagrees to consider my last post concerning that. Would you ask a black man in a suit why he gave up his “black identity” dressing that way?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I read through this thread and I am surprised by how much time/energy/attention you are paying to this woman and her supposed bigotry, or even her actual bigotry.

Is there nothing more important going on in your life? Why the scrutiny on this particular woman? I see “discrimination” on a daily basis, which, BTW is not a bad word. To discriminate merely means to choose between things, to discern. Is everyone in your life happy, satisfied, well-fed, employed? Then be grateful. Maybe offer up a prayer or two for this lady. She probably has no idea you are thinking about her so much. She’s taking up a lot of real estate in your head, man!

The people about whom you are concerned may not have noticed or may not care. If you told them what she says when they walk away, they’d probably call her a nasty name and not return, but it wouldn’t stick in their heads the way it is in yours.

I think you might want to examine your own eye for a plank before drawing attention to this woman’s splinter, yes?

But if this continues to bother you, then do something charitable for the people you believe are the targets of bigotry. Maybe a prison ministry is calling your name. And no, I am not being sarcastic.

 

[mdrummer5]

I read through this thread and I am surprised by how much time/energy/attention you are paying to this woman and her supposed bigotry, or even her actual bigotry.

I’ve not put that much time or energy into it. I’ve merely pointed out what I’ve observed in my visits to the store in question. Any additional time spent posting on these boards is because I have free time at work. At this point I’m not concerned with trying to convince anyone that the woman in question is a bigot, I’m fully confident that if everyone on this board were witness to the things I’ve seen there would be no argument. Now it’s simply a matter of letting people see why the act itself was wrong.

I’m fully aware that discrimination is not necessarily bad, for instance the example someone gave of selling their car to a family member at a lower price than they would someone who’s not a family member. But in terms of how one treats a customer in a commercial setting… it is bad, and in some cases illegal.

Look at it this way. I’m an underwriter at a bank. If someone looking or dressed like the man in question comes in and is given a loan at a standard rate, say 6%… great. If Bob comes into the bank looking the way I do when I come to work and is given the same loan but at a lower rate simply because he’s a regular customer, it is discrimination and is in that case highly illegal.

Or the same man comes in and inquires about an overdraft charge after overdrafting his checking account and the manager says I’m sorry but there’s nothing I can do but then turns around and waives a fee for another customer under the exact same circumstances (which I’ve seen happen) again… discrimation and illegal.

So it may be on much smaller scale… that does not make it any less wrong. The only difference when you consider the scale is that the victim of the discrimination is much less likely to take issue with it as you pointed out. So are we now adopting the “it’s only wrong if it gets me in trouble” mentality?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

No, I think you are spending a lot of time thinking about this. You are quick to respond with a counter-argument and supporting analogies, which suggests this has been on your mind.

Again, if you are very concerned with justice for others, perhaps a ministry to serve those who have been incarcerated? If they are being targeted by bigotry, you could be a force for good in their lives. And it might give you something else to think about. Maybe you could volunteer in a medical clinic that removes gang tatoos. Or help out at an employment center to put people to work after they’ve been in prison. There are a lot of options that will help you feel as if you are doing something about the problem instead of just venting on an internet forum.

A question often asked a group of people who are notorious for getting their knickers in a twist about minimal things…

“How Important Is It?”

Your choices are to keep going to the woman’s shop, and try to ignore/pray for her. Or go somewhere else, and don’t think about it as much. Or, keep going there AND make a difference in the world so your efforts counter-act her observed bigotry. Or, keep going there and confront the woman about her biases, preferably when there are several of the people she’s snarky about in the store. (I don’t recommend that last option.)

 

[mdrummer5]

No, I think you are spending a lot of time thinking about this. You are quick to respond with a counter-argument and supporting analogies, which suggests this has been on your mind.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, but you’re wrong. I’m truly just bored at work. Winter is simply a slow time of year for me. I’m quick with supporting analogies and counter-arguments because it is part of my job and one of my biggest strengths at it, I’ve had a lot of practice.

As I’ve stated repeatedly, my OP wasn’t for advice… it was merely to vent.

Is it important? Yes. Not only because I would like for her to see the problem with her behavior but I want everyone to see how easy it is to commit an immoral act against another person without even realizing it. In her case that was my biggest issue… not that she did it but that she didn’t even realize why it was wrong. After all… if we were all more cognizant of such things, the world would be a better place, would it not?