R
Rau
Guest
I agree entirely. And for this reason, I reject the idea, expressed or implied by some, that a bikini is objectively immodest clothing.
- Status
D
dshix
Guest
I agree with you insofar as no clothing is objectively immodest, but we must consider the purpose and use of the bikini in order to decide if it is generally sinful for a woman to wear it, fully knowing its effects.
We cannot ignore the reality of culture and the reality of temptation. Things are what they are, and a bikini remains a garment which was, at first, only worn by a stripper, until media and society managed to convince the world that it was all right for normal use.
Yes, it is not objectively immoral to wear a bikini. However, I am hard pressed to think of a situation where a girl can wear one in public without knowingly causing others to have lustful thoughts. It takes a dense girl not to figure that one out.
R
Rau
Guest
It would be immodest if the objective was to solicit lustful thought and behaviour.
A beautiful woman, however dressed, out in public, may elicit lustful thoughts. Presumably this is why the Burkha is required of Moslem women.
S
SuperLuigi
Guest
Ha! I promise you some of them are aware and do try and seduce men!
tsktsk:
T
Thinking10
Guest
From the thread I linked to:
"I think the term lust is sometimes used too liberally to describe any attraction to the opposite sex, or appreciation of their physical attributes. Lust, as I understand it is an animal instinct, a craving or immoderated desire for sexual relations that overrides ones ability to relate to a person on a personal basis. It reduces people to nothing more than objects for physical satisfaction, and the driving force of the instinct impairs the ability for a deep authentic interpersonal relationship.
This is why pornography is unhealthy, because it reduces people to nothing more than objects for instinctual gratification, and trains a person to feel sexual instincts solely driving them toward the opposite sex rather than a deeper attraction to the person as a human being with a personality, intellect, and life of their own.
However, not all attraction to the opposite sex, or physical appreciation is lustful. This seems to be where many people are uncertain of whether their actions are sinful or not.
I described a sinful attraction above, but we were created for male and female to attract, so attraction itself isn’t sinful.
If for example, a man looks at a woman, and only thinks of her as a prize to be won, or how to act around her so she will be willing satisfy his desire to please his physical drive to have sex with her, he is acting out of lust.
However, if a man looks at a woman, and appreciates her physical beauty without feeling a strong instinctual drive to have relations with her, he is probably not sinning. If he calmly appreciates her physical body as a component of a human composed of body, mind, and soul, as an outward representation of her humanity, and a symbol of the beauty of our human nature, he is not sinning."
"I think the term lust is sometimes used too liberally to describe any attraction to the opposite sex, or appreciation of their physical attributes. Lust, as I understand it is an animal instinct, a craving or immoderated desire for sexual relations that overrides ones ability to relate to a person on a personal basis. It reduces people to nothing more than objects for physical satisfaction, and the driving force of the instinct impairs the ability for a deep authentic interpersonal relationship.
This is why pornography is unhealthy, because it reduces people to nothing more than objects for instinctual gratification, and trains a person to feel sexual instincts solely driving them toward the opposite sex rather than a deeper attraction to the person as a human being with a personality, intellect, and life of their own.
However, not all attraction to the opposite sex, or physical appreciation is lustful. This seems to be where many people are uncertain of whether their actions are sinful or not.
I described a sinful attraction above, but we were created for male and female to attract, so attraction itself isn’t sinful.
If for example, a man looks at a woman, and only thinks of her as a prize to be won, or how to act around her so she will be willing satisfy his desire to please his physical drive to have sex with her, he is acting out of lust.
However, if a man looks at a woman, and appreciates her physical beauty without feeling a strong instinctual drive to have relations with her, he is probably not sinning. If he calmly appreciates her physical body as a component of a human composed of body, mind, and soul, as an outward representation of her humanity, and a symbol of the beauty of our human nature, he is not sinning."
L
Loving_disciple
Guest
Ok now you are twisting my words. I said it would take the evolution process to change the way I am. I won’t dare blame God for the way I am.
F
fin
Guest
I agree with one of the replies. Bikinis look like underwear. For me it’s not just about the midriff being exposed. Some bikini tops are skimpy and expose much cleavage/part of the breasts. I also think that bottoms (including those for one piece suits) should be boyshorts, which are more modest.
How would I go about talking to my female friends about not wearing a bikini or something showing their midriff.I don’t want to be controlling but I want them to be aware of what that causes in men. Especially young men like myself. Most of my female friends are Catholics and a good amount of them are practicing Catholics.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
Okay, give me a little credit here. I’m not omniscient so, yeah, how would I know if they ever wear bikinis? But you referenced the women at your workplace and how they didn’t dress immodestly and I tried to bring your comment back on topic which is the modesty of bikinis.
I think you are projecting other replies on this thread (and others) into mine because I didn’t suggest that you were trying to dictate anything. I asked a question. Don’t put words into my mouth.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
So this is where it gets confusing. Fin thinks bikini bottoms should be boyshorts because they are “more modest.” Really? I think they have the potential to be very immodest. I think the concept is “sexy,” the idea a woman is borrowing a man’s clothing, which is an intimate thing. That’s why I think they are sexier to wear. But, from the back, boy shorts aren’t that modest; they ride very low on the hips and can show butt cleavage and also are a cut a little high on the bottom and show what I call butt jowels. They don’t flatter everyone. So how does a woman apply what dshix wrote? One person thinks boyshorts are more modest and I think they are sexier.
R
Rau
Guest
But thighs can be very alluring too, yet you’d leave them, at least partly, exposed! And why is it only the exposing of the flesh that concerns you? The female form itself is alluring. Should a girl with an exceptionally catching form, or any girl, wear only clothing that conceals her shape?
My questions are in part rhetorical, but I think this helps to make the point that we may be erroneously focussing on the wearing of the clothing as an objective good or bad, rather than the intentions and conscience of the wearer, and the behaviour of the rest of us.
T
Thinking10
Guest
This demonstrates the subjectivity of mens’ reactions, and why they are not a good reference for determining whether a female is dressed modestly or immodestly. Clothes, or lack of clothes, aren’t objectively sinful. The intention of the person who is wearing or not wearing certain clothing is what determines whether their clothing is meant to provoke lust, not the responses of the men around the woman, because every man will likely see her differently no matter what she is wearing.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
K
KendraDZ1902
Guest
So with this mentality, a person who says, “she knows what she is doing when she wears things like that,” or that, “women wear immodest clothing on purpose to entice men,” are being judgmental?
T
Thinking10
Guest
I am talking about whether a particular article of clothing is objectively a source of lust in men, not about the fairness or unfairness of peoples’ opinions about a woman’s motivation for wearing the clothing.
K
KendraDZ1902
Guest
Gotcha. Thanks.
L
LightBound
Guest
I was having a strange feeling of deja vu about this thread…then I found my post from this time last year and realized why I felt that way
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10067605&postcount=4
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10067605&postcount=4
L
LightBound
Guest
These threads make an interesting read, too.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=813182
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=812640
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=813182
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=812640
S
system
Guest
Hi Brethren,
I found the article below really enlightening with regards to dressing which may or may not affect your view about wearing swimming costumes and going to public pools. Just thought to share it with you.
God bless all!
Father Bruno Pelegia, S.T.D., Catholic Priest, Theologian & Doctor of Sacred Theology, Answers 12 Objections against the Absolute Necessity of Modesty in Dress for Women
You might say, What evil is there in the way I dress?
You must suspect that exposing a woman’s body (or man’s body)as you do, can be terribly provocative.
You might say, Those who see me this way are not forced to sin!
Yes we admit that. But should we not wish to reduce the offenses our Divine Lord receives when we can? Woe to us if we are indifferent about this! Woe to us if, from this indifference, our conduct coaxes others into sin! We know that some good men will so successfully resist any woman’s provocativeness that they will not sin in the least, but will gain merit. However, some others, being weak, will consent to what is forbidden; and according to the Scriptures, you will share in their sin for unnecessarily giving them a lure to it. (Matt. 18:7)
You might say, All the other girls dress this way!
We admit the sad fact that many are that thoughtless. But even if all were so thoughtless, you should not follow such an example. You consider yourself capable of making wise decisions of your own in personal matters. Seeing that you have the freedom, the privilege, and the duty to pursue virtue and heaven, would you unthinkingly follow the herd like cattle do? “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that fififind it!” (Matt. 7:13-14). Let a sense of responsibility and uprightness distinguish you from the herd.
You might say, I do not mean to do evil.
I can believe that. But the mischief you are doing by dressing without due care of the consequences is an evil you will be responsible for.
You might say: But what is important is the heart!
But, Faith … if it have not works, is dead in itself. (James 2:17) It is our bodies, regenerated at Holy Baptism, which become temples of the living God, living tabernacles of the Most Holy Eucharist. The dignity of your Christian body demands adequate clothing.
“Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.” (1 Cor. 12: 27) “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifififice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.” (Rom. 12:1)
You might say, I feel I should be in style and up-to-date.
I would answer there are good women and girls who, using a bit of resourcefulness, manage to dress with a modest attractiveness and charm. But beware of a style which, luring men toward corrupt morals, serves only vanity and the devil; for it is a tragic deception. No matter how styles change and popular tastes change, the moral law does not change.
You might say, Often it is hard to judge if a dress is modest or not.
Reflflflect: If you suspect that a dish of food is poisoned, you do not serve it to anyone, for fear of doing harm. Even more so, should you not wisely play safe when you have any prudent suspicion that your manner of dress will be a source of harm? Does not an upright conscience look upon sin as the greatest of harms?
You might say, I refuse to be a bigot and a hypocrite!
But how can it be wrong to act upon an upright conscience, which tells you that an offense against the all-holy God is truly the greatest of evils? A bigot and a hypocrite is one who pretends to hate sin and love God when he does not really care about these things. But I ask you to care, and how is that wrong? Uprightness, which at times requires sweat and tears and courage, is never the same as bigotry and hypocrisy. And the Saints who fought valiantly against immodesty, were they bigots or hypocrites?
You might say, Men want me this way.
That may be true of men who prefer a bit of pleasure to God’s friendship; but it is not true of men who live by a right conscience. Furthermore, it is to God that you must one day render an account, not to men.
You might say, Beauty is supposed to be seen.
I could reply that “When bodily beauty is shown off a great deal, it loses its loveliness.” But there is a physical beauty that cannot be displayed without becoming a lure to tempt men to forbidden satisfactions. On the other hand, if you thought that there was beauty in displaying your legs, why is there not beauty in showing Christian modesty and a concern for the good of souls?
You might say, But I feel hot!
You know how to put up with the heat when you want to. Surely a good conscience is worth suffering a bit of heat for. Many good souls bear the heat willingly in order to offer it as a penance to God. But—sad to say—some women in hot weather go scantily clad to Mass and other church gatherings who dress modestly when they must work in an offififice where they receive all kinds of clients, or when they must teach school, or when they must work as salesclerks where they have to satisfy all kinds of customers.
You might say, but I have free will and can make free decisions!
But you certainly don’t want to go to hell and you don’t need to be a convicted murderer to go there—it takes much less than that—sinning mortally against any Commandment will do it! And I have the strongest objections to seeing you go there! I will go there myself if I do not try to keep you from going there.
I found the article below really enlightening with regards to dressing which may or may not affect your view about wearing swimming costumes and going to public pools. Just thought to share it with you.
God bless all!
Father Bruno Pelegia, S.T.D., Catholic Priest, Theologian & Doctor of Sacred Theology, Answers 12 Objections against the Absolute Necessity of Modesty in Dress for Women
You might say, What evil is there in the way I dress?
You must suspect that exposing a woman’s body (or man’s body)as you do, can be terribly provocative.
You might say, Those who see me this way are not forced to sin!
Yes we admit that. But should we not wish to reduce the offenses our Divine Lord receives when we can? Woe to us if we are indifferent about this! Woe to us if, from this indifference, our conduct coaxes others into sin! We know that some good men will so successfully resist any woman’s provocativeness that they will not sin in the least, but will gain merit. However, some others, being weak, will consent to what is forbidden; and according to the Scriptures, you will share in their sin for unnecessarily giving them a lure to it. (Matt. 18:7)
You might say, All the other girls dress this way!
We admit the sad fact that many are that thoughtless. But even if all were so thoughtless, you should not follow such an example. You consider yourself capable of making wise decisions of your own in personal matters. Seeing that you have the freedom, the privilege, and the duty to pursue virtue and heaven, would you unthinkingly follow the herd like cattle do? “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction: and many there are who go in thereat. How narrow is the gate and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that fififind it!” (Matt. 7:13-14). Let a sense of responsibility and uprightness distinguish you from the herd.
You might say, I do not mean to do evil.
I can believe that. But the mischief you are doing by dressing without due care of the consequences is an evil you will be responsible for.
You might say: But what is important is the heart!
But, Faith … if it have not works, is dead in itself. (James 2:17) It is our bodies, regenerated at Holy Baptism, which become temples of the living God, living tabernacles of the Most Holy Eucharist. The dignity of your Christian body demands adequate clothing.
“Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.” (1 Cor. 12: 27) “I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercy of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifififice, holy, pleasing unto God, your reasonable service.” (Rom. 12:1)
You might say, I feel I should be in style and up-to-date.
I would answer there are good women and girls who, using a bit of resourcefulness, manage to dress with a modest attractiveness and charm. But beware of a style which, luring men toward corrupt morals, serves only vanity and the devil; for it is a tragic deception. No matter how styles change and popular tastes change, the moral law does not change.
You might say, Often it is hard to judge if a dress is modest or not.
Reflflflect: If you suspect that a dish of food is poisoned, you do not serve it to anyone, for fear of doing harm. Even more so, should you not wisely play safe when you have any prudent suspicion that your manner of dress will be a source of harm? Does not an upright conscience look upon sin as the greatest of harms?
You might say, I refuse to be a bigot and a hypocrite!
But how can it be wrong to act upon an upright conscience, which tells you that an offense against the all-holy God is truly the greatest of evils? A bigot and a hypocrite is one who pretends to hate sin and love God when he does not really care about these things. But I ask you to care, and how is that wrong? Uprightness, which at times requires sweat and tears and courage, is never the same as bigotry and hypocrisy. And the Saints who fought valiantly against immodesty, were they bigots or hypocrites?
You might say, Men want me this way.
That may be true of men who prefer a bit of pleasure to God’s friendship; but it is not true of men who live by a right conscience. Furthermore, it is to God that you must one day render an account, not to men.
You might say, Beauty is supposed to be seen.
I could reply that “When bodily beauty is shown off a great deal, it loses its loveliness.” But there is a physical beauty that cannot be displayed without becoming a lure to tempt men to forbidden satisfactions. On the other hand, if you thought that there was beauty in displaying your legs, why is there not beauty in showing Christian modesty and a concern for the good of souls?
You might say, But I feel hot!
You know how to put up with the heat when you want to. Surely a good conscience is worth suffering a bit of heat for. Many good souls bear the heat willingly in order to offer it as a penance to God. But—sad to say—some women in hot weather go scantily clad to Mass and other church gatherings who dress modestly when they must work in an offififice where they receive all kinds of clients, or when they must teach school, or when they must work as salesclerks where they have to satisfy all kinds of customers.
You might say, but I have free will and can make free decisions!
But you certainly don’t want to go to hell and you don’t need to be a convicted murderer to go there—it takes much less than that—sinning mortally against any Commandment will do it! And I have the strongest objections to seeing you go there! I will go there myself if I do not try to keep you from going there.
S
system
Guest
Continued…
If you want to be Christian in fact and not just in name—if you want to help and not hinder the work of grace to reform consciences— if you do not want to feel remorse tomorrow and bear a weight of guilt—then put forth the effort to dress with Mary-like modesty,
… so that you may prove yourself a Christian woman and not a mere man-trap;… so that you uplift and inspire chaste love, and not enkindle forbidden pleasure.
Mother Teresa, a model of modesty and womanhood shows by her life that ‘a virtuous life is the best adornment for women’ (1 Tim. 2:10).
Now may your informed conscience guide you and let nothing cheat you out of your call to Holiness, Purity and your Eternal Salvation!
Let us conclude by stating:
Women by dressing with modesty will gain the respect of men, becoming dignififified instead of being degraded and considered a mere object of lust. Instead of dressing in a manner which is disrespectful, they should dress in accord with a higher standard. They should dress with this higher standard to receive the respect they deserve.
God commands us to practice Charity, which is primarily a mandate to obey Him. And Charity is defififined as the love of God. What did Jesus say about this love?
… you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. (Mark 12:30)
fatima.org/essentials/requests/mid.pdf
If you want to be Christian in fact and not just in name—if you want to help and not hinder the work of grace to reform consciences— if you do not want to feel remorse tomorrow and bear a weight of guilt—then put forth the effort to dress with Mary-like modesty,
… so that you may prove yourself a Christian woman and not a mere man-trap;… so that you uplift and inspire chaste love, and not enkindle forbidden pleasure.
Mother Teresa, a model of modesty and womanhood shows by her life that ‘a virtuous life is the best adornment for women’ (1 Tim. 2:10).
Now may your informed conscience guide you and let nothing cheat you out of your call to Holiness, Purity and your Eternal Salvation!
Let us conclude by stating:
Women by dressing with modesty will gain the respect of men, becoming dignififified instead of being degraded and considered a mere object of lust. Instead of dressing in a manner which is disrespectful, they should dress in accord with a higher standard. They should dress with this higher standard to receive the respect they deserve.
God commands us to practice Charity, which is primarily a mandate to obey Him. And Charity is defififined as the love of God. What did Jesus say about this love?
… you must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. (Mark 12:30)
fatima.org/essentials/requests/mid.pdf
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Better yet – let grace work within us – so that we develope a Christian attitude-- respecting the other/seeing them as a child of God-- no matter what the person wears.
- Status