Bikinis are immodest - why exactly?

[SeekerJen]

I consider [this dress](javascript:viewZoom(%22http://www.aprilcornell.com/Products/April+Cornell+Catalog/PID-DRA6002K.aspx%22,%20%220%22) and [this dress](javascriptopupWindow(‘http://mikarose.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=5’))to be fitted and well-tailored. Are these immodest?

 

[strugglingalong]

I consider [this dress](javascript:viewZoom(%22http://www.aprilcornell.com/Products/April+Cornell+Catalog/PID-DRA6002K.aspx%22,%20%220%22) and [this dress](javascriptopupWindow(‘http://mikarose.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=5’))to be fitted and well-tailored. Are these immodest?

Depending on who wears it, it could be low cut and reveal cleavage which isn’t modest. It’s probably not that tight. When I think tight I think of those tight tight shirts women wear that are form fitting. This doesn’t strike me as form fitting…

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

I consider [this dress](javascript:viewZoom(%22http://www.aprilcornell.com/Products/April+Cornell+Catalog/PID-DRA6002K.aspx%22,%20%220%22) and [this dress](javascriptopupWindow(‘http://mikarose.com/index.php?main_page=popup_image&pID=5’))to be fitted and well-tailored. Are these immodest?

The second one appears modest to me. It’s not tight or clingy and the form and shape of the body doesn’t come through, shoulders are covered, doesn’t appear low cut, the dress goes past the knees. I’d say it is modest.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

Do you know how much was happening then? No one denies that sins of the flesh can happen regardless of dress but the question is how much is dress playing into it. I’d argue there is a lot going on now, similar to the pagan Roman era. However when the Church was at its zenith I think it wasn’t as bad but no one denies it can exist. But that doesn’t mean modesty goes away.

This issue bothers me because as a man when I go to the beach it’s a huge occasion of sin because women’s bodies are everywhere in bikinis. I know how it is for men. While sins of the flesh can occur no matter what since it is in the heart of man, there is no need to make it worse by making people tempted.

Pax Christi tecum.

If this is your personal struggle, then you have to make a personal decision every time you go to the beach…to not look. But, becoming overly focused on this issue, can backfire if not careful. Just go to the beach…relax…and have fun. Say a prayer before you go, but sometimes, obsessing over potential sin, can cause us to sin.

One of my husband’s brothers told us that he used to struggle with staring at the Hooters billboards in traffic. He is not Catholic,but religious, and one day, he made a conscious decision not to look anymore. He prayed when he would go down that street…and eventually, he forgot the boards were there.

There are temptations everywhere. Women are not going to stop wearing bikinis. As sinners, we have to embrace our crosses, and ask Jesus to help us carry them. I am not trying to diminish women’s roles in wearing immodest clothing–this thread has opened my eyes in many ways.

 

[whatevergirl]

The second one appears modest to me. It’s not tight or clingy and the form and shape of the body doesn’t come through, shoulders are covered, doesn’t appear low cut, the dress goes past the knees. I’d say it is modest.

Pax Christi tecum.

You notice a lot of what people are wearing…lol I must have blinders on…unless a woman is right smack in front of me, I don’t always notice what she’s wearing at all!

 

[strugglingalong]

If this is your personal struggle, then you have to make a personal decision every time you go to the beach…to not look. But, becoming overly focused on this issue, can backfire if not careful. Just go to the beach…relax…and have fun. Say a prayer before you go, but sometimes, obsessing over potential sin, can cause us to sin.

It’s not just my issue. It is an issue for men as a whole. It is a result of original sin. I’m not alone in recognizing this and there is a great article on the New Oxford Review by a homeschooling mother on the realities of how men are attracted and how seeing the anatomy of a woman is an occasion of sin.

There are temptations everywhere. Women are not going to stop wearing bikinis. As sinners, we have to embrace our crosses, and ask Jesus to help us carry them. I am not trying to diminish women’s roles in wearing immodest clothing–this thread has opened my eyes in many ways.

Women need to stop wear bikinis because they are immodest. It’s not because I have some personal problem. Immodest clothing, such as bikinis, are a problem because of fallen human nature and of how men are attracted.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[monicatholic]

Maybe we don’t take Our Lady’s words at Fatima seriously enough that many fashions would be created that offend Our Lord very much.

i take them very seriously.

i take the CCC very seriously, too.

may i suggest your perspective does the pro-modesty argument a disservice by suggesting that modesty involves a certain extremism. in fact, it doesn’t. extremism calls attention to one self, too.

but i’m heading out as i won’t re-enter this fray being made to appear as if i’m tacitly arguing for the pro-bikini lobby.

 

[strugglingalong]

You notice a lot of what people are wearing…lol I must have blinders on…unless a woman is right smack in front of me, I don’t always notice what she’s wearing at all!

When you’re aware of the issue then you consider it more and when you think on what is modest or immodest you notice. More than that men are attracted more visually so it’s an issue for them.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

i take them very seriously.

i take the CCC very seriously, too.

may i suggest your perspective does the pro-modesty argument a disservice by suggesting that modesty involves a certain extremism. in fact, it doesn’t. extremism calls attention to one self, too.

but i’m heading out as i won’t re-enter this fray being made to appear as if i’m tacitly arguing for the pro-bikini lobby.

What extremism am I promoting? I’m promoting traditional views on modesty. It’s nothing new. It’s in the words of Pius XII. I don’t see what is so extreme about it.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

This excerpt is from an article on the New Oxford Review by Gerrie Goguen entitled “Church, Women and Pants.” While Gerrie, a woman by the way, was tackling the issue of modesty as it pertains to pants the principles she elucidates remain true for bikinis or any other immodest clothing:

The issue of modesty pertains to the cardinal virtue of temperance and, as the Catechism (#2521) indicates, “It means refusing to unveil what should remain hidden. It is ordered by chastity to whose sensitivity it bears witness.” Modesty, like all other sub-virtues, is intimately interconnected with the other cardinal virtues – prudence, justice, and fortitude. As St. Thomas Aquinas tells us, the cardinal virtue of prudence is the charioteer of the virtues. As such, a modest woman is by definition a prudent one; her prudence will save her embarrassing moments or even dangerous moments when a disordered or troubled male may consider an immodest woman’s attire as an invitation to lewd behavior. A modest woman is also a just woman because she renders to others what they deserve. In this case, other men do not deserve her nakedness or her sensuality, which are reserved for her husband. At the same time, a modest woman shows fortitude in resisting her innate feeling of enjoying the gaze and attention of men. So, one cannot discuss modesty without impinging upon all the cardinal virtues.

It may be surprising to some pious women to find out how intense the problem of a woman wearing pants is for men, who are conditioned by our fallen nature and our sexualized culture to look at certain parts of a woman’s body. We need to acknowledge that most women do not fully realize how men feel about this, since it is part of the mystery in the difference of the genders. Through intimate conversations with her husband, a married woman can, provided her husband is honest with her, find out how men really think and feel when viewing a woman wearing tight or revealing pants.

We would do well to go to the Scriptures to see what the root cause of this problem is. With Original Sin, disorder was introduced into the psyche of men (and women). This is seen in the remarkable statement after our first parents committed their act of disobedience (Gen. 3:7): “Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized that they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.” Sin made them ashamed of the nakedness. Contrast this with their condition before they committed their sin (Gen. 2:25): “The man and his wife were both naked, yet they felt no shame.”

Herein lies the problem. When man and wife were in a state of innocence, they were properly integrated, meaning they were not swayed by their passions, their intellect was in control of their wills, and they were able to love as God loves. Sin introduced disorder and made them ashamed of their nakedness. Why? St. Augustine is very observant on this point. He tells us that, having lost their integrity, Adam and Eve saw each other as sexual instruments for their own selfishness and, realizing this, felt shame. I do not want to get too graphic here, but one can easily imagine the reaction of Adam after Original Sin gave him his “new” perspective of the beautiful, naked Eve. This time his reaction does not come from agape love but from excited eros. Similarly, we can surmise what might have crossed Eve’s mind upon seeing an excited Adam, with her feelings now running amok against her intellect. When in this erotic rapture, they must have known that they had lost control, and this realization was also part of their shame. The Church teaches that man, even in his sinning, is capable of knowing the wrongness of his actions; he might not be able to stop his sinful actions, but it is nevertheless evident to him.

All this is to explain the intensity and the disordered nature of mankind in general. How pronounced it becomes in males is something women may never understand, but it is something men live with every day. What is, in essence, this “male” disorder? It is the obsession with women’s body parts. Why this obsession? Because man after the Fall became disordered and thus disintegrated. What is disintegration? If integration is making several parts into a unity, disintegration is breaking a unity into separate, discordant parts. This is the crux of the problem: Men, in their disintegration, disintegrate the oneness that a woman is; she becomes her breasts, her rear end, her legs, her feet, her arms, her lips, etc. While not all men are the same in all their predilections – and some may have certain odd obsessions (observe the boxed feet of Chinese courtesan women) – there are some generalizations one can make. One general statement is that certain female parts are of more interest to the eyes of men; breasts and the anatomy of women below the waist constitute perhaps 95 percent of this obsession.

Nevertheless, despite the theological roots of the problem, a woman may still find herself at a loss about the depth and intensity of these problems. And so should it be, since her gender inhibits her from a deeper understanding of the male problem with lust. This is the battlefield for men: the sexual arena. This is why most pious men express such aversion toward immodestly dressed women in church. This is the last bastion where a man should be able to approach God and plead for a clean heart, to withdraw from the temptations of the world. Yet they find that some women come to church dressed to kill. These women (some intentionally, others not) go out of their way to get noticed in church. This is a grave injustice on their part, for they are no longer contributing to the sanctification of their brothers, but are instead in league with the devil (when done intentionally). They become obstacles in a man’s path to sanctification. And let’s not hear the tiresome excuse that it’s the man’s problem if he looks, for yes, we are our brother’s keepers, in a complete antithesis to Cain who declared the opposite after his murderous deed (Gen. 4:9).

It is often said that “the devil is in the details.” So, we are forced once again to discuss details that some may find unpleasant or difficult, but which are nonetheless necessary to make the point as clear as possible. Pants, regardless of how tight or loose they are, direct the eyes of men to a woman’s rear end and to her (pardon me) crotch. Most women are completely unaware of this phenomenon. Is this something women truly desire? Perhaps not, but their intentions do not really matter. It is what women in their immodesty do to men that is of import here. Because of what pants do, men’s eyes, by their own nature, immediately go to those areas. Men cannot help it, since their concupiscence is ever present and most of them engage in viewing these parts which have been made available to their eyes by women’s pants. (Yes, women can pontificate all day long about men’s custody of the eyes, but I am speaking to the practical end of the issue.)

Of course, not all women’s pants are the type that would immediately create a problem. Much of the problem is in the way women’s pants are worn. A non-problematic circumstance would be that of a woman wearing pants with a long sweater, jacket, or coat.

Let us look, on the other hand, at the traditional garment, the skirt. What do skirts do in general? If the skirt is not form-fitting, too short, or with immoderate slits, it conceals, from the waist down, the exact shape of a woman’s anatomy from the eyes of men, and in this way it veils properly what must not be seen except in the intimate setting of marital activity. Pants outline and accentuate the woman’s form and thereby distract men’s minds from the business at hand in church, which is praying and pleading for their own sanctification.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

what are men’s role in our society though? my point is that you place men to be victims of women dressing immodestly. Yes, we as women, should be mindful of the messages we send in the clothing we wear. But, men are not victims of women’s dress, and unless women change…they will not be accountable for their sins.

Women should dress modestly, but men should think modestly.

 

[strugglingalong]

what are men’s role in our society though? my point is that you place men to be victims of women dressing immodestly. Yes, we as women, should be mindful of the messages we send in the clothing we wear. But, men are not victims of women’s dress, and unless women change…they will not be accountable for their sins.

Women should dress modestly, but men should think modestly.

Yes, men should think modestly but you cannot tell a man, “think modestly” when women in bikinis are all around. He has to basically avoid the occasion of sin.

Women are accountable to God for how, or if, they’ve led their brother or sister to sin. If we lead another to sin we have to answer to God for that - not just in the issue of modesty but in all areas.

And it’s not even for the man’s sake. A woman is cheapening herself by showing to every man what is reserved for only one man. When a woman has her body hanging out for all to see that doesn’t say much for the sacredness of her body or how it is reserved for only one man. It’s an invitation for all men to look and see. I respect women who cover themselves and they come across more feminine and as more beautiful because they are sending a message: “Look, I respect who I am and my body. It’s not for you. It’s only for one. That’s how special and beautiful I am.”

Men are attracted visually. Many women dress immodestly. The issue pertains to them both: women have a duty to dress modestly and men have a duty to maintain purity of their senses. As John Paul II says in his popular Theology of the Body, Christ has placed a responsibility on man for the purity of the woman and on the woman for man, both are responsible for the care of the other. Charity requires it. I’m not excusing men but I’m not excusing women either. And when we live in a world of bikinis, spaghetti straps, tight clothing, and low cut everythings, I don’t excuse a woman when she dress in what has become “the norm” just as I don’t excuse a man who stares at a woman’s body. But many are the men out there who take custody of their senses seriously who have to battle seeing the form of a woman’s body every day and that presents an occasion of sin (maybe not every time but it only takes once).

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

Yes, men should think modestly but you cannot tell a man, “think modestly” when women in bikinis are all around. He has to basically avoid the occasion of sin.

Women are accountable to God for how, or if, they’ve led their brother or sister to sin. If we lead another to sin we have to answer to God for that - not just in the issue of modesty but in all areas.

Men are attracted visually. Many women dress immodestly. The issue pertains to them both: women have a duty to dress modestly and men have a duty to maintain purity of their senses. As John Paul II says in his popular Theology of the Body, Christ has placed a responsibility on man for the purity of the woman and on the woman for man, both are responsible for the care of the other. Charity requires it. I’m not excusing men but I’m not excusing women either. And when we live in a world of bikinis, spaghetti straps, tight clothing, and low cut everythings, I don’t excuse a woman when she dress in what has become “the norm” just as I don’t excuse a man who stares at a woman’s body. But many are the men out there who take custody of their senses seriously who have to battle seeing the form of a woman’s body every day and that presents an occasion of sin (maybe not every time but it only takes once).

Pax Christi tecum.

Men are accountable for telling women to dress seductively…we see these lies fed to women every day. In magazines…on tv…in everyday lives…women are made to feel that they should appear seductive to attract men. My sister was telling me about a very pretty women who dressed modestly at a party she was at…and another who was unattractive, who was dressed rather immodestly. The men were ‘hitting’ on the woman who was not attractive, but dressed immodestly. What message does that send to the woman dressed modestly? Please don’t be naive to thinking that we women thought up this dress by ourselves. Men have also led women into sin, in this way too. That is why it’s a vicious circle. Sadly, our culture is looks driven, to the point, where my sister’s story is all too common.

I completely agree…women are responsible for dressing modestly…but please don’t think men had nothing to do with the fashions of today. Many men leave their spouses for younger women who dress sexy, these days…so what message does this send to the women who dressed modestly, and served that husband faithfully? It sends a message that she should have dressed more seductively to ‘keep the man.’ It happens every single day.

 

[whatevergirl]

We as brothers and sisters in Christ, should be mindful of what leads one another into sin. But, the world isn’t made up of everyone who thinks like you and me. You still have to meet your own sin head on. I’m sure you do, I’m just asking you to look at the whole picture. Women wouldn’t dress immodestly in our society, if it wasn’t praised so much by many men. It’s a two way street as I mentioned above.

 

[strugglingalong]

Men are accountable for telling women to dress seductively…we see these lies fed to women every day. In magazines…on tv…in everyday lives…women are made to feel that they should appear seductive to attract men. My sister was telling me about a very pretty women who dressed modestly at a party she was at…and another who was unattractive, who was dressed rather immodestly. The men were ‘hitting’ on the woman who was not attractive, but dressed immodestly. What message does that send to the woman dressed modestly? Please don’t be naive to thinking that we women thought up this dress by ourselves. Men have also led women into sin, in this way too. That is why it’s a vicious circle. Sadly, our culture is looks driven, to the point, where my sister’s story is all too common.

I completely agree…women are responsible for dressing modestly…but please don’t think men had nothing to do with the fashions of today. Many men leave their spouses for younger women who dress sexy, these days…so what message does this send to the women who dressed modestly, and served that husband faithfully? It sends a message that she should have dressed more seductively to ‘keep the man.’ It happens every single day.

Well that is a sweeping generalization. Yes, it is a vicious cycle. I do not in any way excuse those men who encourage the immodestly dressed woman. I myself am rather repulsed when I see an immodestly dressed woman because it speaks to me that she doesn’t truly value herself or her body. There are men out there who look for and value modest women. I know it. I don’t excuse the men who have fed into the immodest culture we have nor those men who continue to encourage it. It’s up to both men and women to now build a truly Catholic culture of modesty. It’ll take both genders to take their responsibilities for each other seriously.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[strugglingalong]

Women wouldn’t dress immodestly in our society, if it wasn’t praised so much by many men. It’s a two way street as I mentioned above.

I have to say I take exception here. You have a point to a degree but I’ve spoken to many women - who got quite angry - who flat out prefer the way they look in a certain immodest outfit, or they just like it, or they just don’t want to be told how to dress. While men affirming immodesty in women may be a part of it there is a part of it that involves women liking to dress that way because of their own personal preferences apart from men’s affirmations.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[Thinks4Himself]

I love seeing a great looking woman in a bikini. I fully support her decision.

 

[strugglingalong]

I love seeing a great looking woman in a bikini. I fully support her decision.

I’m sorry you were compelled to make such a sad comment.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

I have to say I take exception here. You have a point to a degree but I’ve spoken to many women - who got quite angry - who flat out prefer the way they look in a certain immodest outfit, or they just like it, or they just don’t want to be told how to dress. While men affirming immodesty in women may be a part of it there is a part of it that involves women liking to dress that way because of their own personal preferences apart from men’s affirmations.

Pax Christi tecum.

I think more women than not, if asked…subconsciously or consciously dress immodestly to attract men…because our culture has embraced it and promoted it, actually for decades. So…when something becomes affirmed and rewarded long enough, it becomes second nature. I AM NOT DEFENDING THIS. I am merely saying…you can’t just look at this like women are the instigators of this sin. Men instigated it, too. It’s a two way street.

It’s best to not point fingers when it comes to the weaknesses of one’s self. Women are not going to stop wearing bikinis or short skirts or tight tops…etc. As Christian women, we should not be dressing in a way to seduce men. Again, not everyone thinks like you and me.

 

[strugglingalong]

It’s best to not point fingers when it comes to the weaknesses of one’s self. Women are not going to stop wearing bikinis or short skirts or tight tops…etc. As Christian women, we should not be dressing in a way to seduce men. Again, not everyone thinks like you and me.

These “weaknesses of one’s self” are universal. We are all infected by Original Sin and its effects. All of us have weaknesses and as St. Paul says, we have to take the weakness of our brothers and sisters into account. If I don’t have a weakness toward excess in alcohol, and my friend does, then I should not drink alcohol if it is a temptation to sin for him. Same for anything. We are Christians called to heroic charity - charity beyond what the “pagans” have, what the world has. But it does not suffice to say, “Oh well that is how they are.” It’s not okay for Catholics especially to dress immodestly just as it is not okay for Catholics to not keep custody of their senses.

Pax Christi tecum.