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TheSufi
Guest
None of your arguments make sense to me. They never have. There is nothing to ponder.I’ve given you some points to ponder. So im sure you can do better than that.
MJ
Billboards proclaiming ‘Jesus is Muslim’ getting people upset
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the_phoenix
Guest
In my daily Rosary, I pray for the conversion of the Muslims.
Our Lady of Fatima,
pray for us.
Our Lady of Fatima,
pray for us.
I
IgnatianPhilo
Guest
So the apostles were mistaken from the beginning? Where were the true apostles whom were faithful to Christ? Or am I simply misreading the quran?
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dronald
Guest
They’re the ones that became dominant over the non-believers of Isa… I don’t know their names but the Qur’an says so.
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Ontheway
Guest
Finally an open admission!
Mr. Sufi is here not to discuss, but to promote Islam. For him, there is nothing in Christianity to ponder.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Islam holds to an Arian heretical view of Jesus. The Catholic Church condemned your Jesus view centuries before Islam ever came into existence. There never exist any Islam or Muslim of Islam to give an eyewitness account of the true Jesus.
The Jews, pagan Rome, first century Christians were all eyewitnesses to the Jesus Christians know not to exclude the law and the prophets who also give witness of Jesus. Islam records a Jesus that never existed from uncanonical sources that is never Christian or Jewish recordings.
Thus we do not believe in the same Jesus of the first century.
Your are in error. Christians never view Jesus “AS” God. We proclaim Jesus to be God incarnate, revealed to our humanity by eyewitness accounts to be fully human in every way except sin, fully divine in every way who raised the dead, healed the sick, gives sight to the blind, forgives sin, takes on death and resurrects His flesh into eternal life. We have historical facts and eyewitness accounts to these.
Islam has no historical eye witnesses to Jesus of Nazareth to lay claim of knowing him as a Muslim.
I introduced a professed Catholic faith of Jesus as doctrine which does not change. You introduce a theology of Jesus by title references that are not Islam to interpret. Yes the Jewish scriptures records such titles which only introduce and foretell of the Messiah coming.
Jesus takes all of your Jewish titles and fulfills them all in Himself. Your interpretation remains stagnant in historical writings that points to the Jesus. When the law and prophets are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. No we are not speaking of the same Jesus. Islam’s view of Jesus never makes it to the first century, because Islam’s Jesus does not exist.
Islam teaches you to believe in a Jesus that is never Christian and who never existed. Some heretical Arians held to only a human Jesus, this heresy rejected the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Islam can relate to this heresy because it’s faith is grounded on the natural tendencies of Muslim = those who submit to the laws of God.
One who walked on water, raised the dead by His word, calm the sea storm at the wave of His hand and word of command is the maste of creation for all of creation to submit to him. Jesus is the right hand of the Creator, which all creation came through Him, thus all of creation and the laws of God submit to Jesus Word, that give witness of who Jesus is God incarnate.
Your telling me, I have to know Arabic because Islam’s God cannot speak in any other language? In Christianity God speaks in all the languages of world who reveals Himself to His children.
.
One never needs a degree in the sciences to have faith in God our creator. Just look around you. God reveals His omnipotence through all of creation without a Word.
It’s interesting, when Islam is faced with a challenge that disproves Islam. The Muslim quickly claims to the semantics of the Aramaic language and interpretation of the Quran.
I Challenged your Quran quotes in an earlier post. Your rebuttal does not disprove my challenge, you question my intelligence of the Aramaic language when it was you who posted them in the English translation. Then instead of defending the Quran quotes challenged by me, you neglect them and introduce others?
Is that a fair assessment?
I hope when Muslim’s quote the Quran, it is quoted with the interpretation and understanding Muslim’s are holding too, do not leave the hearer guessing.
The Jesus of Islam is revealed from heretical sources rejected by the Catholic Church, written by professed christian heretics. These writings were rejected by Church councils long before Islam enters history or Muhammad was born.
Peace be with you
P
Publisher
Guest
Friend, I’m with you on this point. I don’t really understand the arguments either.
If you spend any time here at CAF you’ll find there are four traditions which seem to me to be “thorns” in some Catholics…and Protestants…who on any other topic are not as deeply…“closed minded” as when considering some of the other points of view to issues they hold dear and sacred…I think sometimes many forget we too are speaking of things held as dear and sacred by us as their understanding is to them.
I have found topics that involving Islam, Orthodoxy, Lutheranism and The Anglican communion tend to bring out the worst in apologists that comment…you will find too that when statements are made as I have just made, your comments will be dismissed to an extent with a cursory comment “we believe truth is found in all…just not the fullness as I ours.” Then go on as though you made no point…no truth worth pondering because you do not share their beliefs nor do those beliefs “make sense” to you. Getting ones mind around a concept one does not hold is difficult.,perhaps even more difficult for those who have difficulty appreciating another’s point if view and seeking to understand the Journey that was made…a much different Journey than they have under taken.
Short memories exist. You often will be answered with statements as I made above…"cite passage, post in which such “uncharitable” comments were made is the first defense.
Be patient…look past the not so charitable comments. We all are discussing ineffable and eternal concepts in very finite words and minds. Charity doesn’t always come easy…but it is ALWAYS the best way to frame our responses…“Their circle” of faith needn’t include “us”…as long as “Our circle” includes “them”.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
The choice is yours. I was looking forward to further discussion. Oh well.
I expected it since you didn’t even defend,when I used Biblical NT verses to prove Jesus and His Father are one and that Jesus said all who believe will have everlasting life. And it was you who used NT,verses to prove Jesus meant all are Gods.
Why did you bother using the NT if it doesn’t make sense?
MJ
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
The discussion is “Jesus was a Muslim” posted on the streets of the United States respectfully.
Can a Muslim truly show charity, if a Christian posted a bill board in Muslim country or here in the U.S that Muhammad was a Christian? Because the name Isaj-Jesus is found in the Quran?
Can you take your Christian faith and publicly proclaim them to a Muslim in a Muslim country? Where is charity?
**We are blessed to have open discussions with Muslims in a free society that (myself) we citizens have paid a heavy price for our freedoms and liberty. One should not encourage another not to grasp at the opportunity to share one’s faith here.
**
Yet, I do not understand your view of discounting the Muslim his God given write to defend his belief’s and share them.
It is the Christian who is offended by the Muslim action of posting a billboard that makes the false claim that Jesus was a Muslim. Where is your charity in all of this?
Had the billboard read; The Jesus Islam teaches about was a Muslim? I don’t think anyone would bat an eye.
It is not fair to the Muslim to walk away from an opportunity to share his belief’s if his motive is to share his Islamic faith and not discount or discredit other faith’s such as Christianity.
I believe each faith, no matter the affiliation, if it teaches “Truth”; should be able to stand on it’s own merit, without having to discredit or bash another faith in order to prove it’s own faith.
Both Islam and non-Catholic Christians have based their truth of their theology by trying to discredit another faith in order to prove their own faith.
The time has come through mediums such as these, that the Catholic faithful are able to give a response to over 500 years of uncharitable and deceptive attacks on the Catholic faith.
I pray that opportunity is now to proclaim Truth and allow Truth to expose the errors of man. We should not run from them but engage them, if you have Truth can withstand the errors of man?
Peace be with you
O
Ontheway
Guest
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Publisher
Guest
Offence was not intended yet even knowing no offense was made responses tend to indicate the Muslom bill board WAS an intention to offend
We DO NOT live in a “CHRISTIAN” nation so your " yeah but look what happens in Muslim countries". Why should Chriastans respond in kind? “I have become all things…so that some can be won”…I just fail to see how refusing to understand the Muslim view and intent…even the Muslim belief that Jssus was “muslim”…a word that is Arabic in origin THAT INDEED DOES CARRY with it the concept of “one who submits to the Will of God”, which indeed both Christians and Muslims can agree Jesus did indeed seek to be submissive Nd was submissive to the will of God…" Not as I wll but as you will it,". Arabic concepts and beliefs seeking to be understood in English words, that may lack the layered meaning and concepts which Arabic does in the Holy Qur’an…a book of poetry…a song that is mult-layered…and this multi-layered depth of meaning that was sought to open a new idea that may not be easily conveyed in English.
The depth of layers of meaning in the holy book was the “intent” and a commonality, no matter how imperfect that concept may be…no offense was intended.
Seem to me based on my several years here at CAF the negative responses at CAF on this subject are based on prejudice and underlying “anger” at Islams claims…or even their “audacity” to speak/write of Isa/Jesus… Even some claiming that “Isa” is not “Jesus” of the Christians…which is not true…Muslims are not discussing a different character in world and religious history…BUT THE SAME CHARACTER… Just different understanding in their religious explanations…seems to me not recognizing our commanities stifle dialog and understanding one another…no wonder tensions on a much larger scale exist in the Middle East…the burden to understand others should rest on our shoulders not theirs…seems the “Christian” thing to do…
We DO NOT live in a “CHRISTIAN” nation so your " yeah but look what happens in Muslim countries". Why should Chriastans respond in kind? “I have become all things…so that some can be won”…I just fail to see how refusing to understand the Muslim view and intent…even the Muslim belief that Jssus was “muslim”…a word that is Arabic in origin THAT INDEED DOES CARRY with it the concept of “one who submits to the Will of God”, which indeed both Christians and Muslims can agree Jesus did indeed seek to be submissive Nd was submissive to the will of God…" Not as I wll but as you will it,". Arabic concepts and beliefs seeking to be understood in English words, that may lack the layered meaning and concepts which Arabic does in the Holy Qur’an…a book of poetry…a song that is mult-layered…and this multi-layered depth of meaning that was sought to open a new idea that may not be easily conveyed in English.
The depth of layers of meaning in the holy book was the “intent” and a commonality, no matter how imperfect that concept may be…no offense was intended.
Seem to me based on my several years here at CAF the negative responses at CAF on this subject are based on prejudice and underlying “anger” at Islams claims…or even their “audacity” to speak/write of Isa/Jesus… Even some claiming that “Isa” is not “Jesus” of the Christians…which is not true…Muslims are not discussing a different character in world and religious history…BUT THE SAME CHARACTER… Just different understanding in their religious explanations…seems to me not recognizing our commanities stifle dialog and understanding one another…no wonder tensions on a much larger scale exist in the Middle East…the burden to understand others should rest on our shoulders not theirs…seems the “Christian” thing to do…
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Publisher
Guest
“the responsible use of language”…according to you? The “responsible use” of the word “muslim” by definition should then include the depth of meaning this Arabic word conveys IS RESPONSIBLE, because the only way Islam can be understood is to seek the meaning of certain words in all of its nuances that ARE used in the Holy Book…isn’t the “responsible” thing to do us to embrace those various nuances the word conveys so we may truly understand the concepts Muslims seek to convey?
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
So change your description to Muslim instead of quaker if you really believe this. You won’t however because you know how you would be forced to explain it every time. We have words for a reason and they mean something. It would be irresponsible to say one is a Christian, while holding to a technical meaning but in reality be a Muslim or Bahai.
The thing is, when Muslims say Jesus is muslim. They mean to say that he believed in certain things, he did not just submit to God, but rather he denied himself being God, he was not raised from the dead and etc. Your refusal to acknowledge this is startling.
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MartinJordan
Guest
I’d like to ask if Muslims say Jesus submitted to God, then why is there the “killing of Isa” (let’s face it Muslims really mean this is Jesus who Christans worship erroneously) claim by Jews mentioned in the Quran.
Eg. “And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain”. Surah. 4:157 Pickthall
Is there a mention of Jesus having a talk with Allah and Allah tells him to make it look like there is a crucifixion? After all Jesus(Isa) submits to Allah so there must have been a communication.
MJ
Eg. “And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain”. Surah. 4:157 Pickthall
Is there a mention of Jesus having a talk with Allah and Allah tells him to make it look like there is a crucifixion? After all Jesus(Isa) submits to Allah so there must have been a communication.
MJ
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Trebor135
Guest
^ The issue of the crucifixion is something I find baffling in Islam.
Muhammad’s heresy purports to be the final divine revelation to humanity. The Qur’an declares time and again that Christians are in error. Yet, this text, supposedly comprised of the very words of God, never tells us what really happened, and I’ve heard/read different things. Was Judas killed instead of `Isa? Or was it Barabbas? Did one of his faithful apostles volunteer to be crucified in place of their prophet? There’s no definitive answer. The irony here is that, while the Jews and Christians are said to have been engaging only in “conjecture” according to Qur’an 4:157-158, it’s actually Muslims who have nothing but speculation to offer.
Muhammad’s heresy purports to be the final divine revelation to humanity. The Qur’an declares time and again that Christians are in error. Yet, this text, supposedly comprised of the very words of God, never tells us what really happened, and I’ve heard/read different things. Was Judas killed instead of `Isa? Or was it Barabbas? Did one of his faithful apostles volunteer to be crucified in place of their prophet? There’s no definitive answer. The irony here is that, while the Jews and Christians are said to have been engaging only in “conjecture” according to Qur’an 4:157-158, it’s actually Muslims who have nothing but speculation to offer.
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MartinJordan
Guest
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Jesus is Muslim, so he must have listened/submitted to God who asked him to make it look like a crucifixion, either asking someone (likely one of his disciples to take his place since Jesus is the Boss of his disciples) like Moses followed Gods instruction. After all Jesus is only a prophet like Moses :ehh:
Can someone fill in the blanks?
MJ
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
I believe you miss the big picture here. There is never a question of a Muslim’s expression of faith when it comes to Islam via Aramaic language or practices.
The contradiction that the Muslim of Islam makes; When Islam makes the false claim that the Jesus Christians follow and believe is wrong and the Muslim of Islam has their Jesus view as being the only correct view of Jesus.
You appear to be failing this understanding here. If the Muslim makes the claim that Jesus was a Muslim without trying to discredit Christianity and the True Living Jesus. So that Islam’s Jesus view stands on it’s own merit. It would not take much to disprove Islam’s view of Jesus.
But as you relate to the Aramaic expression of Jesus as expressed and interpreted by a Muslim is respected and accepted so long as it relates to Islam. Yet you fail to see that Islam does not tempt to do this on it’s own merit.
Islam’s goal is to discredit the Christian faith in Jesus Christ, by using It’s Islamic faith and Aramaic language to disprove the Christian faith of Jesus Christ
Your are mistaken, my posts never reflect your opinion of Christians responding in kind. I put the question of how is Charity viewed by you on both sides of the fence?
In summary, I don’t believe anyone is “refusing to understand the Muslim view… of Jesus”.
What you fail to see is the Muslim’s “INTENT” is to disprove Christianity’s faith in Jesus by offering a contradiction of Jesus from Islam.
The Christian say’s prove it? What does Islam have to offer as proof in order to disprove the Christian faith in Jesus?
You appear to be agreeing with the Muslim’s interpretation of Jesus was a Muslim as Islam holds to it’s semantics of the Aramaic language. Your wrong to accuse posters here that a Muslim’s view of Jesus is wrong. What is uncharitable is when a Muslim tries to force Islam’s view of Jesus to discredit Christians faith in Jesus. This has been the meat and potatoes of this discussion “Jesus was a Muslim”.
No offense is ever taken, when Islam teaches Islam. Islam draws attention to itself, when It makes the false claim that “people of the book” = Christians and Jews got it all wrong.
If Islam is Truth, Truth should be able to stand on it’s own merit without making offense to others when Islam goes at great length to teach Muslims how to argue and disprove Christianity using semantics of Languages.
When the ignorant goes to an Islamic Mosque to inquire of their billboard Jesus. From my limited experience, the Muslim is well prepared to prove their Jesus by discrediting Christianity to the ignorant. My experience proved that Muslims teach Muslims Islam. Muslim’s main focus on converts is to discredit their faith affiliation first. They are masters at this.
I don’t think anyone here gives “negative responses” of Islamic belief’s when Islam teaches Islam. What you label as negative responses are those who defend their faith when Islam attacks another’s faith with false claims that it never proves from Islam.
Today, I still cannot grasp of how Muslims are taught that Christians changed the Word of God? When the Christian Saints and Martyrs went willingly to their tortures and death’s to keep God’s from ever changing into the errors of man.
Diversity of languages and peoples is a strength in Catholicism… The apostolic Christian faith in Catholicism is interpreted and expressed in many different languages and cultures around the globe for centuries since the resurrection, in each age all are arriving at the same Jesus.
Why is this not possible with Islam?
Peace be with you
T
Trebor135
Guest
Christians shouldn’t “respond in kind”, but we should acknowledge that Christians and other minorities aren’t well treated in Muslim-majority countries, and we should confront our Muslim interlocutors about this problem. If their religion is so peaceful and tolerant, where’s the evidence? If Islam’s source texts permit or encourage minorities to be oppressed and discriminated against, the world should be made aware of this fact so that it can make an informed decision about whether or not to embrace Islam.
But Christians can’t sweep under the rug that we differ with Muslims on fundamental points about who Jesus was. Imagine if, six centuries down the line, some group writes a poem that lauds Catholic Answers founder and apologist Karl Keating as a faithful Muslim journalist who exposes human rights abuses around the world. Clearly, those who know Keating or follow his activities during his lifetime are, in a sense, talking about someone completely different from the one that his hypothetical fans would be six hundred years down the line. What do the two groups have in common, apart from a positive appraisal of Keating?
We understand the Muslim view, and strongly disagree with it. Also, Arabic isn’t some kind of alien tongue that can’t be translated. Poetry in one language isn’t easy to render into another, but methinks the line, “You have to read the Qur’an in Arabic or your interpretation is invalid,” is simply a cop-out behind which to hide when non-Muslims ask difficult questions.
But we have a right to be irked. Islam is a religion which emerged over half a millennium after Jesus lived, yet claims to know better what happened than those who wrote in the decades after the Lord’s ascension. And we can’t forget that its holy book condemns Christians (and Jews) based on serious misconceptions of their (orthodox) beliefs, and requires that they be subjugated as dhimmis if those poor misguided souls refuse to accept the religion brought by Muhammad.
It’s hard to carry on a “dialogue” and increase “understanding” when one party sees the other as inferior, not just in error, and deserving of second-class status in an Islamic state.
Plus, it’s completely unfair to hold Christians responsible for any of the “tensions” we see in the Middle East. The problems either involve mostly or only Muslims anyway (Iraq*, Bahrain, Yemen, Lebanon**, Tunisia) or have Christians being killed or persecuted (Syria, Egypt).
*Chaldean Catholics and other Christians have been targeted in the past ten years in Islamist violence, but they don’t play any real role in the conflict between the Shi`a-dominated government in Baghdad and the primarily Sunni opposition in Fallujah, Ramadi, and the al-Anbar province in general.
**Maronite Catholics, Greek Catholics, and Greek Orthodox are much more significant demographically and politically in Lebanon, but the major split in the country is between those who support the Syrian regime of Bashar al-Assad and those who back the rebellion. The camps are divided along sectarian lines–the Shi`as and some Christians vs. the Sunnis and other Christians–but the real friction is occurring within the Muslim community.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
How can God be God? If God has to deceive man to fake a crucifixion? Does God have any reason to lie and deceive man? I can’t figure that out myself? How can the crucifixion be a hoax according to Islam, when non-Christian Jews, pagan Romans give eyewitness accounts to the crucifixion taken place?That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Jesus is Muslim, so he must have listened/submitted to God who asked him to make it look like a crucifixion, either asking someone (likely one of his disciples to take his place since Jesus is the Boss of his disciples) like Moses followed Gods instruction. After all Jesus is only a prophet like Moses :ehh:
Can someone fill in the blanks?
MJ
Yet it is expressed by Muslims that the Christians changed the words or added these stories to the biblical texts’. The Muslim wins again with double meaning words. The Christians did write the New Testament who were all Jewish converts except Luke who was a pagan Doctor. What they have to prove is that Christians changed the actual event from their writings. The attempt to disprove the Christian Jesus and the crucifixion is made from copies of the originals, by minimum typo errors compared to heretical Christian writings. What they neglect to reveal is that the teachings and practices of Christianity were all in practice and preached orally before anything got written.
For me, It’s difficult to disprove one’s faith (Christianity) if no one of the Islamic faith was their to give an eyewitness account. Arguing from afar without fact, becomes only an opinion of Islam.
Peace be with you
P
Publisher
Guest
I am not “Muslim” friend…my formal faith tradition is Friend aka Quaker. I would like to believe I am “muslim” however.
- Status