Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

[Ruqx]

No one ever asks (at least, no sane person asks): why doesn’t God just put that corn on our plates without making us go through the action of planting the corn seed?

I recall that manna fell from heaven to feed some hungry people… so it is not unheard of. It would also make a nice video as an obvious miracle.

No sane person asks: why didn’t God just cure this boy without making us go through the action of praying for his cure?

When I can help someone (say a homeless person) who is obviously destitute, I do NOT make her to beg for help, I just help her… After all begging is so demeaning.

By the way, isn’t it against the rules to question someone’s sanity just because they have a different opinion? (Excerpt from the rules / guidelines: “Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited.”)

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As for the topic of the thread, it is my personal opinion that there are no miracles captured on video, because there are no miracles to be captured. Can you imagine the video of a regrowing limb going viral?

 

[PRmerger]

I recall that manna fell from heaven to feed some hungry people… so it is not unheard of.

No one has said it’s “unheard of”.

But do you know of any sane person who doesn’t understand that we have to physically work to produce corn for our plates?

I know I don’t.

So it’s curious that there are some folks who don’t understand that we have to spiritually work (that is, pray) to produce [some] cures for our sick.

 

[PRmerger]

By the way, isn’t it against the rules to question someone’s sanity just because they have a different opinion?

Ummm… no one is “questioning someone’s sanity just because they have a different opinion.”

But let’s see your answer to this question: do you think a sane person says, “Why doesn’t God just put the corn on the cob on everyone’s plate?”

 

[PRmerger]

As for the topic of the thread, it is my personal opinion that there are no miracles captured on video, because there are no miracles to be captured. Can you imagine the video of a regrowing limb going viral?

Nah. All the atheists would just say, “Salamanders grow limbs. So it’s not supernatural. It’s simply nature.”

So it seems to be a setup.

“I’ll believe when I see a limb growing.”

“Limbs can regrown, so it’s not a miracle”.

 

[Bradski]

And that’s just false. It is not how random sampling works. In fact, such precise distribution is not just not certain - it is highly unlikely.

We can do this any way you like. You need two groups of people that were both equally sick. So select them on that basis. On the medical reports. So that the reports are identical.

Put the reports in front of you and divide them into two groups. At this moment no-one can tell the difference between them. They have been selected to be the same.

Now nominate one group as the one to be prayed for. You say that group will show a difference. An improvement.

When does the reposrt change?

 

[PRmerger]

Ummm… no one is “questioning someone’s sanity just because they have a different opinion.”

But let’s see your answer to this question: do you think a sane person says, “Why doesn’t God just put the corn on the cob on everyone’s plate?”

And I will add: do you think it’s a logical conclusion to say: God doesn’t put corn on the cob on every person’s plate, therefore he doesn’t exist?

No?

You’d be right. That’s kind of ridiculous, right?

So let’s apply this to the spiritual realm. Do you think it’s a logical conclusion to say: God doesn’t cure every sick person, therefore he doesn’t exist?

 

[Ruqx]

No one has said it’s “unheard of”.

If it happened, then it is not “insane” to hope for it to happen again, and again, and again…

But do you know of any sane person who doesn’t understand that we have to physically work to produce corn for our plates?

Why are you so obsessed with corn? I am not insisting on corn. The manna would work for me, especially if it came in different flavors. And I still deny that I am insane to have such strong “faith”. You know, this “insane” remark was very much uncalled for.

Nah. All the atheists would just say, “Salamanders grow limbs. So it’s not supernatural. It’s simply nature.”

Interesting that you claim to “know” what ALL the atheists would say. Does your “omniscience” include the next winning numbers on the Powerball?

Indeed, salamanders grow SOME limbs (not their heads). Humans are NOT salamanders. Humans have never grown limbs. So, if all of a sudden humans started to grow limbs, it would be a very strong indication (though not a 100% PROOF) of supernatural involvement. As a matter of fact, the lowly planaria can be cut in half, and both halves regenerate. So the question arises: “if God created the planaria with total regeneration, then why not the humans”? Does God love the planaria more than he loves humans?

And I will add: do you think it’s a logical conclusion to say: God doesn’t put corn on the cob on every person’s plate, therefore he doesn’t exist?

No?

You’d be right. That’s kind of ridiculous, right?

So let’s apply this to the spiritual realm. Do you think it’s a logical conclusion to say: God doesn’t cure every sick person, therefore he doesn’t exist?

I guess you have a nice conversation with yourself, so you don’t need me. But, you see, your imaginary conversation with me is totally off the mark. I would use different arguments AND reach a totally different conclusion. Maybe you can use your omniscience and figure it out?

 

[MPat]

We can do this any way you like. You need two groups of people that were both equally sick. So select them on that basis. On the medical reports. So that the reports are identical.

Put the reports in front of you and divide them into two groups. At this moment no-one can tell the difference between them. They have been selected to be the same.

Now nominate one group as the one to be prayed for. You say that group will show a difference. An improvement.

When does the reposrt change?

For the perhaps the tenth time (I didn’t count all the posts where similar points were made), no, the reports do not change!

No, the reports were never identical!

No, the effect wouldn’t have been found if the reports would have been distributed into the groups in the way that makes sure to have the same amount of the ones who have healed in each group.

The methodology used in the study is explained in the paper: “In July 2000 a random number generator (Proc Uniform, SAS, Cary, NC, USA) was used to randomise the patients into two groups. A coin was tossed to designate the intervention group.” (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61047/). Why do you have to ignore it?

Come on, it’s not like your atheism demands that you would be unable to understand all that! You have even been told how you can explain that paper away - you can just say it was a fluke. What else do you want!?

 

[tonyrey]

Indeed.

As Pascal stated, paraphrasing, God gives us the Dignity of Causality.

The human person has been given the profound and magnificent ability to actually cause an action to occur through our prayers.

Just as we have the ability to physically work/create an action, so too can we spiritually work/create an action.

i.e.
Physical work = plant a corn seed.
Result = corn on the cob on our dinner plate.
We wouldn’t have had that corn on the cob except that we planted that seed.No one ever asks (at least, no sane person asks): why doesn’t God just put that corn on our plates without making us go through the action of planting the corn seed?

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Spiritual work = saying a prayer.
Result = boy is cured of cancer
We wouldn’t have had that cure except that we said that prayer.No sane person asks: why didn’t God just cure this boy without making us go through the action of praying for his cure?

The reductio ad absurdum is that we don’t have to do anything because God will do everything for us! All we have to do is wait for things to happen and hope for the best…

 

[PRmerger]

The reductio ad absurdum is that we don’t have to do anything because God will do everything for us! All we have to do is wait for things to happen and hope for the best…

Yep.

 

[PRmerger]

If it happened, then it is not “insane” to hope for it to happen again, and again, and again…

Really.

I continue to be amazed at what I read non-believers espouse in order to reject the very logical, reasonable conclusion that God exists.

You can continue to espouse the idea that God, should he exist, should put turnips and corn on the cob on every single person’s plate.

As for me, well, I will live with the reasoned expectation that God gives us the dignity of providing for our own turnips and corn on the cob.

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed, salamanders grow SOME limbs (not their heads).

LOL!

Yes. Not their heads.

Humans are NOT salamanders.

Humans have never grown limbs

What was it that you posted about omniscience?

You happen to have this quality, then? You know, in the entirety of human existence that no human has ever grown a limb?

So, if all of a sudden humans started to grow limbs, it would be a very strong indication (though not a 100% PROOF) of supernatural involvement.

It certainly would be an indication for me.

But not for atheists.

As a matter of fact, the lowly planaria can be cut in half, and both halves regenerate. So the question arises: “if God created the planaria with total regeneration, then why not the humans”? Does God love the planaria more than he loves humans?

Why does re-growing limbs indicate love from a deity for you?

 

[PRmerger]

Why are you so obsessed with corn?

Turnips are the vegetable I’m obsessed with, Ruq. Turnips. Not corn.

(Bradski?? Where are thou?)

Stay around a bit and you’ll find that out.

Actually, have you been here before?

 

[Bradski]

No, the reports were never identical!

We aren’t discussing the faux test. We are talking a hypothetical. If this prayer system worked, then if you had two groups of people in the past, all equally unwell, then you will have a medical report for each person showing each to be equally unwell.

If you now pray for one group, members of that group will have a medical report showing an improvement.

When did the report change from showing them to be equally unwell as the other group to showing an improvement?

Here’s another bizarre situation (I could keep this going all week).

Someone is unwell, so it is decided to prove this prayer theory by deciding to have someone pray for them in the future. Amazingly, the person gets better. So there is no need to say any prayers. It works, even when it’s not used!

And another:

I give you a thousand names of people who were really sick. You get as many people to pray for them as you can. Now somebody surely would have improved. Except, no. It turns out they all died. Hey, hang on…you can only pick people who got better, otherwise it doesn’t work!

Brilliant…

 

[Little_Tiger]

I apologize for being absent from this thread. I run two businesses and when business is good, I have to work. When things are slow, I like to argue with people on the internet.

Unfortunately I am unexpectedly busy, today being no exception. I want to respond as briefly as I can.

The evidence that has been offered here isn’t convincing enough for me, because it is all really old, and secondary and tertiary sources. The reason I am wondering about HD video, is because this would be a primary source that would allow the one who experiences the evidence to make a judgment, rather than have the judgement imposed upon him or her by a text written by a biased observer.

Several people here have offered anecdotes and 19th century books about reports about reports of miracles. Why hasn’t someone taken their phone to Lourdes and captured a miraculous healing in real time? This would be convincing to me.

I don’t believe in UFOs, Bigfoot, the Lochness monster, Mothman, Satyha Sai Baba, or any else like this, although the proponents and believers in these things have offered a similar quality of evidence for their beliefs.

For me to believe in Catholicism and simultaneously reject Bigfoot, Hinduism, UFOs, the Iluminati conspiracy, etc: I need evidence that is of a higher quality. A real life miracle on HD video would be such evidence, but I’m afraid that what has been offered here is not exceptional.

Thank you.

Two brief points my friend:
One, regarding your mention of “old” sources. Lourdes miracles are being authenticated by physicians to this day, in the 21st century.
As for your mention of “biased observers,” I have addressed that a number of times. More than one of the links I have provided discusses Dr. Alexis Carrell, agnostic surgeon and Nobel Prize winner, who was firsthand witness to a miracle at Lourdes and eventually converted to Catholicism. There is also the book The Miracle of Lourdes, which I have recommended on innumerable occasions, which is written by a Protestant journalist. And of course there is the fact that the Medical Bureau of Lourdes is not a bureau of Catholic doctors, but of any doctor who wishes to participate, regardless of his religion, or lack thereof. Please take a look at that book, as well as the links I have provided. You are in my prayers, may God bless you!
And I also will put this thought out there - perhaps the loved ones of an ill person at Lourdes are not so much eager to capture their beloved’s healing on video, as they are to see their loved one cured and thank God. Perhaps they are there out of love for their family member or friend, and not to appease the desires of those not open to the discovery of truth. Perhaps they are more concerned with the health and life of their father, mother, sister, brother, or friend, than they are with convincing the closed-minded skeptic. Perhaps they have more reverence for the ill and dying, and for their God, than to sit with their iPhones ready as their loved ones are bathed in the waters of the shrine. Just a thought .
Again, I wish you well, and I wish you Christ’s blessings. May He lead you.

 

[inocente]

I was going to stop responding to this nonsense. How many times need it be said that the study did not attempt to prove we can change the past. That was the joke. The very real fact is that prayers at a future date were correlated with better health for randomly selected persons in the past. This is empirical evidence that there is more going on than the clockwork reality that is believed to exist by yourself and other atheists. You keep repeating a conclusion that no one believes. What is true are the findings, the empirical evidence, which everyone agrees including the skeptics who later commented in a subsequent article; the Statistics are a valid finding. Again, the conclusion was a joke. The fact that the study appears in the festive edition with “Rudolf”, to me displays God’s sense of humour; He is in on the joke. Again, for some inexplicable reason you seem to want to argue a point that was a joke, that people agree was a joke, and actually no one but yourself and Bradski, seems to take seriously. God does not change was he has already created in time. What He does do is bring everything, all times, all places into existence. And, He is with us in each and every moment as Father, through the grace of Holy Spirit and one with us in Christ. It is consistent with my understanding that God might inspire the researchers to conduct the study and be responsible for the correlation. The joke is that He knows our needs and wants, we need not worry. He knows what is good for us, and that is to be loving persons. To live a month, a year, a decade longer and not to have progressed along that path is to render all that time meaningless. The entire reason we are here is to find Him. It is important to talk with Him and to do His will. Those who believe that God is some sort of powerful being to be placated, a magical force, a best buddy who will get you a Mercedes Benz, to rival your friends with Porches, and to those who come here to make the point that He is not, well, the joke is on You. An encounter with God can bring us to our knees, make us hide our faces in shame; it can also come with uproarious laughter. It is all good.

Two days have passed. Let’s unemotionally review your post.

408 words in one paragraph, no pauses to catch your breath. You manage to call me an atheist, try to assign me a belief I’ve been arguing against, and of all things invoke Janice. In-between you write statistics with a capital S for some reason, and say “God might inspire the researchers to conduct the study”, apparently not having noticed there was only one researcher.

Seems to me all empirical evidence that you’re experiencing confirmation bias.

Suppose the study had instead denied one of your beliefs. Would you still have accepted it so unquestioningly? Would you have asked more questions about its design, protocols, ethics, operation, validity? Would you still have got breathless at my questioning the paper, or would you instead have welcomed my skepticism?

btw, still waiting for you to cite the views of ordained members of the Church on this paper, and any vatican.va document supporting remote, retroactive intercessory prayer.

If one person of unknown faith (given the location, perhaps Jew or atheist?) made a single short prayer about patients anonymously placed randomly on a list by machine, and purportedly got them out of hospital a few days earlier, does the Vatican plan to scale-up the procedure for effects of real significance such as saving large numbers of lives?

And I’m still waiting to hear about the morality. Did God ensure none of the patients killed or hurt any victims in those extra days they had out of hospital? If no, did the victims share His joke? If yes, how does that square with free-will?

 

[inocente]

inocente;14135630:

Also, please link news articles in which ordained members of the Church share your view about this one-off piece. And as I asked before, please cite the vatican.va document which teaches that God alters history on the basis of short anonymous prayers. No point in you guys posting further platitudes, I’m not buying the Eiffel Tower or Brooklyn Bridge from you either.

Have a look at ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/HOW2PURG.htm (the relevant part is given the number 8).

You also have a wrong idea of position you attack. No one is saying that God changes the history - as if we had one history before the prayer and a different history afterwards. But God can take into account prayers that, from our point of view, will happen in the future.

It means that prayer for event that we know hasn’t happened is rather unreasonable (we already know God hasn’t chosen to allow it), and prayer for event that we know has happened is, in effect, a “thank you” hidden under “please”. But often we do not know if the event has happened.

And yes, from your point of view the situation is indistinguishable from a very strange and improbable artefact of sampling.

Thanks for linking the article, but is Akin ordained? And I couldn’t see the relevance. Perhaps you might invite him by PM to give his view on remote, retroactive intercessory prayer.

Incidentally, the C S Lewis argument he cites is invalid. He says “Thus it would be irrational to pray that Abraham Lincoln not be assassinated, since one already knows that he was”.

But on the original timeline, the assassination attempt didn’t succeed and in the following years terrible evil events occurred. Then in 1880, to prevent all those terrible things someone prayed that instead the assassination succeeded, and God agreed that would be the lesser of two evils, and changed history, so on our timeline we know Lincoln was assassinated.

Well, that’s true as I write this post, but God may have changed history again before you read this, in which case God will have rewritten my post and Akin’s article, along with all the history books and all the movies and all our memories. Standard sci-fi stuff. God as Orwell’s Big Brother from 1984.

And is hiding God away so deeply that he’s “indistinguishable from a very strange and improbable artifact of sampling” what the Church teaches?

 

[inocente]

You have the wrong end of the stick and that is why you have stumbled! God does not change the past. He transcends time and space and exist in the eternal present - as one might expect from the unique insight “I AM WHO AM” - which you should accept as a Christian. He knows our prayers “before” (from our point of view) we make them and acts accordingly. Why is that so difficult to understand? Do you doubt His power? Or His omniscience?

I see. So my wife died young of cancer because in the future no computer will randomly put her first name on a list which a researcher will ask someone of unknown faith to say a short prayer over.

 

[tonyrey]

You have the wrong end of the stick and that is why you have stumbled! God does not change the past.

Only God knows why He permitted your wife - or babies who have never had the opportunity to enjoy life - to die prematurely but there is certainly a reason apart from the physical causes. I’m not going to speculate but she could have suffered a far worse fate if she had survived…

Jesus didn’t promise all our prayers would be answered in this life. He chose to be tortured and crucified to show us we all have our crosses to bear, some far worse than others - like slaves and dissidents serving life sentences in prison in China and elsewhere. That is no consolation for those who are afflicted now but it is a cause for hope that we shall be reunited to those we love and have lost. I had a friend whose lovely twelve-year old daughter died of leukaemia after she had a remission and we all thought she had recovered in answer to our prayers. The mother kept asking me why God let her die but I knew nothing I could say would alleviate her grief. I probably quoted Pascal’s words: “Jesus is in agony until the end of the world”. In other words He shares our suffering and feels what we feel.

What more could He have done? One thing is certain: there has to be a limit to miracles - demonstrated by the fact that He could have saved Himself but chose not to even though the crowd mocked and jeered at him. It wasn’t because He was insane but because He identifies Himself with us and gives us the strength to follow Him to the bitter end of life on this earth - knowing we are never alone…

 

[tonyrey]

We aren’t discussing the faux test. We are talking a hypothetical. If this prayer system worked, then if you had two groups of people in the past, all equally unwell, then you will have a medical report for each person showing each to be equally unwell.

If you now pray for one group, members of that group will have a medical report showing an improvement.

When did the report change from showing them to be equally unwell as the other group to showing an improvement?

Here’s another bizarre situation (I could keep this going all week).

Someone is unwell, so it is decided to prove this prayer theory by deciding to have someone pray for them in the future. Amazingly, the person gets better. So there is no need to say any prayers. It works, even when it’s not used!

And another:

I give you a thousand names of people who were really sick. You get as many people to pray for them as you can. Now somebody surely would have improved. Except, no. It turns out they all died. Hey, hang on…you can only pick people who got better, otherwise it doesn’t work!

Brilliant…

The fatal flaw in your argument is its view that God is a slot-machine! It also fails to recognise the fact that God transcends time and space. He knows our prayers before we make them and acts accordingly but He doesn’t always cure people because He knows it won’t be in their best interests. Death is not the supreme evil.