Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

[PumpkinCookie]

It might not be the kind of thing that one says often.

But it is the kind of thing one can easily see - in others.

No, it is neither similar nor irrational.

It is not similar, because emotion does not participate here.

It is not irrational, because adding existence of a video of something some non-Catholic or non-Christian does not contradict Catholicism. If it was rational to believe Catholicism before, it is still rational to do so afterwards.

In fact, Bible does mention non-Jews, non-Catholics and non-Christians doing something that looks like a miracle (for example, Exodus 7:10-12). So do the Fathers of the Church. So, wouldn’t the absence of such videos be more of an argument against Catholicism…?

OK so again, all miracles of competing religions are the work of demons or the devil, in your opinion right? What if a Muslim says the miracles of your religion are the work of the devil? How would I know she is wrong?

And here we have an example of reason being overcome by something - maybe emotion. You know that videos exist, you have seen them, you have talked about them - and yet, you still say “why isn’t the Catholic world brimming over with miracles caught on video?”, as if they didn’t exist. Perhaps you will even admit that adding “that would persuade me” would have been just as easy and far more accurate - and yet, you have said what you have said.

There are hundreds of Hindu videos on the internet capturing miraculous actions, and I literally have not seen a single Catholic video capturing something similar. I’m not persuaded by any of those videos because I think they are all fraudulent in some way or another, but I will admit they make me think twice about Krishna! Just like my hours on this website are me thinking twice about Catholicism.

 

[PumpkinCookie]

This as well - integralworld.net/lane62.html
Be well all, and I wish you the peace of Christ Jesus the Lord!

Indeed, I agree Baba was a fraud and a sexual deviant. Odd how those two things accompany each other in more than one religious tradition, eh? All of these miracle claims are just so bogus and silly.

rosarubicondior.blogspot.com/2015/05/faking-it-at-lourdes.html

 

[PumpkinCookie]

God always does what is best and doesn’t need to be convinced of anything but we need to express our faith, hope and love for Him and not regard Him as a remote Creator who takes no interest in what happens to us. If we never pray we are guilty of pride and churlish ingratitude for the gift of life and all the blessings we have received. We should be childlike in our prayers because He is our loving Father, not a distant deity devoid of the attribute we consider to be more precious than anything else: love which does its utmost for others. Such a God is not worth having - and doesn’t exist…

I agree that it is spiritually good for us to be grateful to the Creator. The Creator is not remote, he is everywhere, in everything.

Love relies on trust, hope, vulnerability, and ignorance. Love emerges from brokenness and uncertainty. God is beyond these things. Have you read Plato’s Symposium?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

Miracles are not the monopoly of one religion or even of religion. Why should they be?

If miracles are a sign of truth, and only one religion is true, shouldn’t only one religion produce bona-fide miracles?

If several religions are “more or less” true, then I guess we would expect to see miracles coming from a variety of religions.

Or, are miracles not necessarily a sign of truth?

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed, I agree Baba was a fraud and a sexual deviant. Odd how those two things accompany each other in more than one religious tradition, eh?

What do you mean here?

 

[PumpkinCookie]

What do you mean here?

It always seems like the holy-rollers who scream the loudest about their religious beliefs and purity are the ones later found out to be perverts/pederasts/philanderers/deviants. This is absolutely NOT exclusively a “Catholic” thing and is found wherever there is absolute deference to a spiritual authority. Tons of offenders come from all sorts of Protestants, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Gurus, Cult-leaders, etc.

I think it’s possible some kinds of malignant narcissists and people with psycho-sexual development issues are attracted to religious leadership positions. And in some cultures, their narcissism is allowed to fester and grow without restraint. Some communities allow their religious authority figures to become “beyond reproach,” and cults of personality and secrecy create the perfect environment for predators to go nuts. It’s not just sex, it’s also money. The culture of secrecy and favoritism also breeds embezzlement and other financial improprieties, regardless of religious tradition.

Although, I guess this same dynamic exists wherever there are authority figures who can abuse their power unchecked. Teachers, cops, psychologists, military officials, government officials, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

It always seems like the holy-rollers who scream the loudest about their religious beliefs and purity are the ones later found out to be perverts/pederasts/philanderers/deviants. This is absolutely NOT exclusively a “Catholic” thing and is found wherever there is absolute deference to a spiritual authority. Tons of offenders come from all sorts of Protestants, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, Gurus, Cult-leaders, etc.

I think it’s possible some kinds of malignant narcissists and people with psycho-sexual development issues are attracted to religious leadership positions. And in some cultures, their narcissism is allowed to fester and grow without restraint. Some communities allow their religious authority figures to become “beyond reproach,” and cults of personality and secrecy create the perfect environment for predators to go nuts. It’s not just sex, it’s also money. The culture of secrecy and favoritism also breeds embezzlement and other financial improprieties, regardless of religious tradition.

Although, I guess this same dynamic exists wherever there are authority figures who can abuse their power unchecked. Teachers, cops, psychologists, military officials, government officials, etc.

:sad_yes:

 

[PRmerger]

If miracles are a sign of truth, and only one religion is true, shouldn’t only one religion produce bona-fide miracles?

If several religions are “more or less” true, then I guess we would expect to see miracles coming from a variety of religions.

Or, are miracles not necessarily a sign of truth?

Only if God exists could miracles exist.

Miracles exist.
Therefore God exists.

 

[PRmerger]

We are part of nature and medicine/agriculture are applications of our imaginations to natural processes. We’re able to irrigate, plant, harvest, and fertilize but the actual growth is directly God’s doing.

Yep.

And unless we plant and sow, no turnips will appear on our plates.

We have to do it.
We work. We get food.

Similarly, unless we spiritually plant and sow (through our prayers), no spiritual work will appear on our plates.

We have to do it.
We pray. We get cures.

 

[MPat]

OK so again, all miracles of competing religions are the work of demons or the devil, in your opinion right?

Why “all”? That is just one possible explanation. There are others: fraud, natural occurrence, genuine miracle (God can also do miracles for non-Catholics, if He chooses to).

What if a Muslim says the miracles of your religion are the work of the devil? How would I know she is wrong?

And that’s why it is not very reasonable to base the faith on miracles alone.

So, first, you’d have to accept that you are, um, unlikely to be “one miracle away from conversion” - and that that might not be such a bad thing.

As for how you can tell which claim is true - think how you would check other claims. For example, how would you solve a murder mystery?

And there are no shortcuts here: gather evidence, formulate hypotheses, check if they are self-consistent, see how they fit the facts…

Of course, it is a good idea to test those findings by asking others (let’s say, in this forum). Apparent contradictions are not unheard of…

There are hundreds of Hindu videos on the internet capturing miraculous actions, and I literally have not seen a single Catholic video capturing something similar. I’m not persuaded by any of those videos because I think they are all fraudulent in some way or another, but I will admit they make me think twice about Krishna! Just like my hours on this website are me thinking twice about Catholicism.

Very good! So, now you have two “suspects” - go and investigate!

And, to get you started… Now you know that miracles of Hinduism are compatible with Catholicism. So, check if the same would be true from the side of Hinduism. Let’s say, is Hinduism compatible with Resurrection of Jesus…?

 

[Little_Tiger]

Indeed, I agree Baba was a fraud and a sexual deviant. Odd how those two things accompany each other in more than one religious tradition, eh? All of these miracle claims are just so bogus and silly.

rosarubicondior.blogspot.com/2015/05/faking-it-at-lourdes.html

Friend,
amazon.com/Miracle-Lourdes-Ruth-Cranston/dp/0385241879
Funny how our blogger is at odds with innumerable physicians. I most strongly encourage you to actually examine the medical evidence for the cures at Lourdes (a wealth of it is contained in this book, but more concise info is in the links I have provided), rather than accepting the obscure and unsupported comments of an Internet blogger.
Also, contrary to one of the claims made in the article, Lourdes miracles have included things such as the fusion of a broken limb, where there was a substantial amount of bone missing in between the two pieces, and the regeneration of part of a man’s skull (not to mention the disappearance of the metal plate that had been in the place of bone), etc…
The medical evidence is in remarkable contrast to the contentions of the article, as you can see above.
May God bless you!

 

[Little_Tiger]

I would also like to mention that I am confused by the author’s mention of the most recent miracle being the cure of “self-diagnosed arthritis”. I did some research, and this does not describe the 65th-69th cures (to this date the 69th is the last). So, I’m not sure what the source of this comment is, whether it be an honest misunderstanding, lie, etc…
May God bless you always, and may Christ be with you!

 

[Little_Tiger]

I would also like to leave you, dear friend, with two quotations from agnostic and Nobel Prize winning surgeon Dr. Alexis Carrell -
“The most important cases of medical healing have been recorded by the Medical Bureau of Lourdes. Our present conception of the influence of prayer on pathological lesions (disease processes) is based on the *observation of patients who have been cured almost instantaneously of various afflictions such as peritoneal tuberculosis, cold abscesses, osteitis, suppurating wounds, lupus, cancer etc. *The process of healing changes little from one individual to another. Often an acute pain. Then a sudden sensation of being cured. In a few seconds, a few minutes, at the most a few hours, wounds are cicatrised (a scab forms), pathological symptoms disappear, appetite returns. The only condition indispensable to the occurrence is prayer. But there is no need for the patient himself to pray, or even to have any religious faith. It is sufficient that someone around him be in a state of prayer.”

“In surroundings where men pray, there are frequent reports of cures being obtained in response to supplications addressed to God and His saints. The Medical Bureau at Lourdes has rendered a great service to science in demonstrating the reality of such cures. Sick people have been healed almost instantly of such afflictions as lupus of the face, cancer, kidney infections, ulcers, pulmonary and peritoneal tuberculosis, and tuberculosis of the bone. The phenomenon nearly always occurs in the same way. First great pain, then the feeling of being cured. In a few seconds, or at most a couple of hours, the symptoms disappear and lesions are automatically repaired. The miracle is characterized by an extreme acceleration of the normal processes of healing. Never has such acceleration been observed among surgeons and physiologists in the course of their clinical experience.”

May God bless you, my prayers are with you.

 

[Bradski]

Also, contrary to one of the claims made in the article, Lourdes miracles have included things such as the fusion of a broken limb, where there was a substantial amount of bone missing in between the two pieces, and the regeneration of part of a man’s skull (not to mention the disappearance of the metal plate that had been in the place of bone).

Bones will grow to bridge a gap in any case. One assumes that there was a mechanical connection across the breaks (and his lower arm, for example, wasn’t just swinging in the breeze). Bone will overgrow these connections. It’s called oseointegration.

Same with the skull. Bone regenerates. Otherwise a break would not heal. If the guy had a bioabsorbable plate then it would have indeed disappeared. If he didn’t, it’s still there.

 

[Little_Tiger]

Bones will grow to bridge a gap in any case. One assumes that there was a mechanical connection across the breaks (and his lower arm, for example, wasn’t just swinging in the breeze). Bone will overgrow these connections. It’s called oseointegration.

Same with the skull. Bone regenerates. Otherwise a break would not heal. If the guy had a bioabsorbable plate then it would have indeed disappeared. If he didn’t, it’s still there.

Bone can significantly regenerate over the course of an evening? -
books.google.com/books?id=5mnefXWMqk4C&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=john+traynor+skull+cure&source=bl&ots=Wzb4y9buB_&sig=-Uu5ZdgiWxsdppzzjTicVqiqicc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz7f3K2-rOAhUCph4KHakpAWMQ6AEIVzAR#v=onepage&q=john%20traynor%20skull%20cure&f=false
pamphlets.org.au/docs/cts/australia/html/acts1518.html
We are talking about a metal plate, which was no longer present.
Let me get you more info on the limb my friend .
God bless you!

 

[Little_Tiger]

miraclesoflourdes.blogspot.com/p/pieter-de-rudder.html
The two bones were joined instantaneously after having been separated for eight years.
God bless!

 

[Little_Tiger]

"Rudder had a wound on the upper part of the leg; at the bottom of this open wound could be seen the two ends of bones about an inch apart. There was not the slightest appearance of cicatrisation. Pierre suffered very much, and had endured his broken leg for eight years.

The lower part of the leg could be turned in any direction. The heel could be lifted so as practically to fold the leg in half. The foot could be twisted until the heel was in front and the toes at the back. All these movements were only limited by the resistance of the muscular tissues. Considering the condition in which the leg was when I saw it, I affirm that it could not possibly, under any conditions whatever, have completely healed in the time between my visit and the pilgrimage.”
The words of Dr. van Hoestenberghe, who examined the healed man.
God bless!

 

[Little_Tiger]

"Later again, only nine days before the pilgrimage, Jean Houtsaeghe, a cooper at Stalhille, near Jabbeke, saw De Rudder’s leg.

“What did you see?” he was asked at the inquiry.
“I saw,” he replied, “a sore as large as the palm of my hand.”
“Were the bandages soiled?”
“Yes, with a bleeding matter which smelled very bad.”
“Were you able to ascertain that the leg was broken?”
“Yes, Pierre *folded the leg himself in a way that caused the two extremities of the broken bone to project outside.” *
“Were the two extremities rounded?”
“No, they were not, they were jagged like a broken object would be. Pierre showed me how he could turn his heel in front and the toes behind. He had also a large wound on the back of the foot.”

 

[mozartpc27]

Sort of apropos of this thread, or at least this seems like the best place to stick this comment:

I have never understood the desire on the part of the adherents of this - or any - religion to “prove” that their religion is “true,” or that its subordinate claims (like that miracles happen) are true. Sometimes, of course, miracles are themselves used in an attempt to “prove” Catholicism/Christianity is “true” (and I am sure there are similar mechanics in other religions).

If the central claims of this or any religion were objectively true, provable according to rational and commonly accepted standards for empirical truth (and yes, I know that one of the tenets of Catholicism is that it can be substantiated through reason), then it wouldn’t be a religion, anymore than mathematics or geometry is, and there would be no need of the beautiful thing that is faith. No one “believes” that 2+2 is 4, they know it; no one would die to defend the idea that Ronald Reagan was the 40th President of the United States, it’s simple, objective fact.

Religion shouldn’t be simple, objective fact, and it gets itself into trouble when it starts trying to trade in that business, or pass itself off as such - just ask Copernicus.

 

[Bradski]

miraclesoflourdes.blogspot.com/p/pieter-de-rudder.html
The two bones were joined instantaneously after having been separated for eight years.
God bless!

OK. So we have a guy, not only with a badly broken leg, but an open compound fracture. With gangrene having set in. Zero medication. Or at least nothing that would pass muster these days. Not even clean bandages. Living in the country, in the late 19th century. Not exactly a sterile environment.

That someone with such a wound would even survive a few weeks without the very best of medical attention, such as it was over 140 years ago, in not credible in itself. The fact that he could actually get around with crutches at any time at all is not credible. That he survived for 8 years in such a condition is already asking for a miracle.

We have a problem in this case, as in so many, that the initial conditions already stretch what we are required to believe beyond what any reasonable person could be expected to accept. To accept the story just up to this point, notwithstanding any potential miraculous healing, would exhibit a degree of gullibility that would be dangerous in a lot of situations.

There is no reason whatsoever to accept these conditions as having any connection with reality at all. Except…we have a miracle coming. We must believe it up to this point, or the miracle itself is just an equally tall tale.

I have mentioned this before, many times, but it appears to be easier to accept this type of story when there is less evidence to support it. If someone survived such an accident in the bush in modern times with minimal attention for even three or four weeks it would be discounted out of hand. People would wonder what exactly might be the reason for so blatantly a falsehood. Picture in the papers? Book deal?

Yet these examples keep on coming. There is no stopping them. As if the more there are, the greater the weight of evidence. As if any of the examples had any weight in the first instance. It’s just floss. Wispy accounts of unbelievable stories that are held to be accurate and undeniable by those relating them. Miracles are not being exhibited. What is being exhibited is a serious lack of skepticism in those who are doing the telling. Adding more to the mix just exhibits a greater gullibility.

And what happens when doubt is cast on any given story? Well, the ‘atheist’ tag on the top right of my post will certainly come into play. Because this isn’t just an unbelievable story of a miraculous healing. It is a Christian story of a miraculous healing. Any story that doesn’t include your particular religion, stories from Haiiti or Paraguay or Zaire will be consigned to the same waste paper basket as I’m placing yours.

But there must be more. Lots more. Because even if almost all are shown to be risible, you only need one to prove your case. There only needs one real sighting of Elvis or Bigfoot or one genuine case of Alien abduction and the proponents of each are in the clear, so they have to keep coming. If you don’t believe THIS one, then wait until you hear the NEXT one!

Except, as I said, they add no weight. They just confirm that the skeptical meter is flat lining.