B
Bradski
Guest
Xrays in the 19th century? I must have missed that. I think that you missed it as well. Because you obviously didn’t read the account. Yet still support it.
How exactly does that work?
Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?
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How exactly does that work?
M
MPat
Guest
OK, in that case, make an argument. Why would God helping someone to heal sooner because of some prayer and not stopping the Holocaust outright (especially given other circumstances, like Allied leadership ignoring the reports from Polish government-in-exile) have to be “Morally obscene”?
What principles are you going to use to derive that conclusion?
Also, since you objected to the part where I said that your conclusion is based on emotion and not on logical reasoning, no emotional “shortcuts”, please. “How dare you!” is not a replacement for an explicitly written premise.
I
inocente
Guest
It’s called confirmation bias, the cognitive tendency to only see information that confirms one’s preconceptions. The desire to believe blinded him to the fact that the events took place two decades before even the discovery of X-rays.
I
inocente
Guest
Confirmation bias is our tendency to only see things which confirm our preconceptions, and to ignore everything which doesn’t. For example, we might only see the words research - prayer - effect.
It quickly gets worse. With a warm fuzzy feeling we now incorporate it into our beliefs with a sense of ownership, and so interpret any criticism as an attack on our beliefs. We post-rationalize our attachment and so decide the criticism is irrational emotion. (I refer you to your post.)
I think you guys fell into that trap before you had time to notice the detail - a person of undisclosed (or no) faith saying “a short prayer” over a computer-generated list of names. But only first names, so no clue as to which Daniels were on the list and which weren’t, and the person saying the words didn’t know any of them from Adam anyway.
So not really a prayer then. No need for your Church to exist, no need for a relationship with God, no need to live a good life, no need for sincerity. None of what is meant by prayer. More an incantation, a series of words said as a magic spell or charm. Just make an incantation to the Great Slot Machine in the Sky and you’re done.
All on the basis of a single article illustrated with a picture of stained cells in the shape of Rudolf, published light heartedly in a festive edition of the BMJ. And it might be time disclose for you guys to disclose your qualifications to interpret statistics in medical research, that you can be so certain about the validity. Talk about emotional short-cuts.
I’m still waiting for anyone to cite the documents on vatican.va confirming that the Church teaches the value of remote retroactive prayer.
I
inocente
Guest
Confirmation bias is our tendency to only see things which confirm our preconceptions, and to ignore everything which doesn’t. For example, we might only see the words research - prayer - effect.
It quickly gets worse. With a warm fuzzy feeling we incorporate it into our beliefs, and with that sense of ownership interpret any criticism as an attack on our beliefs. We post-rationalize our attachment and so decide the criticism is irrational emotion. (I refer you to your post.)
I think you guys fell into that trap before you had time to notice the detail - a person of undisclosed (or no) faith saying “a short prayer” over a computer-generated list of names. But only first names, so no clue as to which Daniels were on the list and which weren’t, and the person saying the words didn’t know any of them from Adam anyway.
So not really a prayer then. No need for your Church to exist, no need for a relationship with God, no need to be sincere. None of what is meant by prayer. More an incantation, a series of words said as a magic spell. Just make an incantation to the Great Slot Machine in the Sky and you’re done.
All on the basis of a single article illustrated with a picture of stained cells in the shape of Rudolf, published light-heartedly in a festive edition of the BMJ.
Now might be a good time for you guys to disclose your qualifications on interpreting statistics in medical research, that you can all be so certain about the validity. Talk about emotional short-cuts. I’m still waiting for anyone to cite documents on vatican.va confirming that the Church teaches the value of remote retroactive prayer.
B
Bradski
Guest
These things have a temporal order, Inocente.
People first get better. Then people pray for them. Then a report is issued saying what a good idea it was. Or will be. Or…something.
What’s the opposite of deja vu? Pas encore vu?
I
inocente
Guest
*"One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well-adjusted family can’t cope with. There is also no problem about changing the course of history – the course of history does not change because it all fits together like a jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the end.
The major problem is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner’s Time Traveller’s Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you for instance how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations whilst you are actually travelling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father.
Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up: and in fact in later editions of the book all the pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.
The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy skips lightly over this tangle of academic abstraction, pausing only to note that the term ‘Future Perfect’ has been abandoned since it was discovered not to be." - Douglas Adams*
B
Bradski
Guest
I listened to the radio series first, then read the books, then watched the tv series, then the film.
Douglas Adams RIP.
Douglas Adams RIP.
J
john_ennis
Guest
Anybody who chronicles the totality of earth’s existence with the two words Mostly Harmless is to be much admired.
A
Aloysium
Guest
It is a very sad fact that we cannot change the past.
The rich man in the story of Lazarus poignantly addresses the outcome of our actions.
What offers hope is that we can change our future and we can do it now.
That God is with us in each and every moment can be known in our hearts.
Even the very limited light that empiricism casts on reality attests to this reality in the form of miracles.
That said, it would seem that in the relativistic world even observational and statistical data can be discounted and denied.
We see in these pages how facts can be distorted to fit nonsensical conclusions which can then be ridiculed.
An interesting parlour trick, a slight of hand openly visible to the audience, hidden only by the magician from himself.
The rich man in the story of Lazarus poignantly addresses the outcome of our actions.
What offers hope is that we can change our future and we can do it now.
That God is with us in each and every moment can be known in our hearts.
Even the very limited light that empiricism casts on reality attests to this reality in the form of miracles.
That said, it would seem that in the relativistic world even observational and statistical data can be discounted and denied.
We see in these pages how facts can be distorted to fit nonsensical conclusions which can then be ridiculed.
An interesting parlour trick, a slight of hand openly visible to the audience, hidden only by the magician from himself.
I
inocente
Guest
By way of comparison, a prayer.
"I am an orphan on God’s highway
But I’ll share my troubles if you go my way
I have no mother no father
No sister no brother
I am an orphan girl
I have had friendships pure and golden
But the ties of kinship I have not known them
I know no mother no father
No sister no brother
I am an orphan girl
But when He calls me I will be able
To meet my family at God’s table
I’ll meet my mother my father
My sister my brother
No more an orphan girl
Blessed Savior make me willing
And walk beside me until I’m with them
Be my mother my father
My sister my brother
I am an orphan girl"
Gillian Welch
youtube.com/watch?v=e7wTLQdT5NU
"I am an orphan on God’s highway
But I’ll share my troubles if you go my way
I have no mother no father
No sister no brother
I am an orphan girl
I have had friendships pure and golden
But the ties of kinship I have not known them
I know no mother no father
No sister no brother
I am an orphan girl
But when He calls me I will be able
To meet my family at God’s table
I’ll meet my mother my father
My sister my brother
No more an orphan girl
Blessed Savior make me willing
And walk beside me until I’m with them
Be my mother my father
My sister my brother
I am an orphan girl"
Gillian Welch
youtube.com/watch?v=e7wTLQdT5NU
I
inocente
Guest
I like xkcd because he does geek humor. I think he must be correct here - if remote prayer as described in the BMJ paper worked, then health companies and agencies would definitely use it to cut spiraling care costs and get a competitive edge. The fact that big business doesn’t use the paranormal tells us something.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
xkcd.com/808/
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
xkcd.com/808/
B
Bradski
Guest
There are no xrays of the guys leg. For heavens sake, at some point you surely have to say: ok, I was wrong there.
The more you try to avoid it, the less credibility you have.
A
Aloysium
Guest
Let’s go over this again:
The conclusion was a joke.
The data however is the data, and this one unique study revealed a correlation between “remote prayer” and improved outcome. Meaningful perhaps, or a statistical fluke.
Prayer is not a tool, some positive energy force, something one does to make one’s situation better. It does not cajole some powerful entity to do what you want.
How the empirically, scientifically derived statistical results make sense is that God initiates the contact. We could stew in our misery, curse this misfortune or that malevolent force, but He calls and we respond with prayer. We engage in a dialogue. In that study, should you choose to believe it, He demonstrates that He is with us, here and everywhere, and that He wants the best for us. We are destined to die, all of us. We cannot get our wish to live in this state forever. This has been prevented. We are meant for something far greater. As He acts here, He acts everywhere and in every time for our good. Within the context of this study, He makes some people healthier in the relative past as He, at a later date, witnesses their last moments on earth. He calls on people at a later date, to pray for strangers, as He in His eternal Now makes those sick persons better. He does all this, as a reminder, a happy Christmas present for those with faith.
To think that God can be of assistance in helping reduce health costs is nonsense. God is not a pawn of big business. You and Brad seem to be the only ones here making that claim and then ridiculing it. I don’t want to say what it sounds like when you say such things.
T
tonyrey
Guest
It tells us a lot about your notion of reality! It is amusing you use big business to discount divine love in action on earth. Is financial success your main guide to the value of prayer?
T
tonyrey
Guest
Do you really believe the specialists wouldn’t have taken x-rays of the bones subsequently to verify the doctor’s report? Why do think the International Medical Committee of Lourdes exists?
A
Aloysium
Guest
This isn’t clear. While both Inocente and he continue to perpetuate a misunderstanding of what the study reveals, Brad does not believe in God. (As rude as it is to speak in the third person, we do so habitually when speaking of God, who is right here.) Although Brad states he does so because there is no proof and that it is not an act of faith, he does have faith in a system of understanding the world. A system which sees reality only dimly. And, where it does point to something greater, that evidence is discounted. So, he will always see what he expects to see, which provides some security, were it not for the sheer horror of what it implies. Faith is a light that reveals its Source and can illuminate every corner of our existence. With Faith, everything changes. Miracles are everywhere pointing to this one grand universal miracle right here and now.
I
inocente
Guest
Tony, stop for a moment.
Here’s the illustration in the blog you linked.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
The blog says “The bones of Pierre de Ruder after autopsy”. It says the body was disinterred, the legs amputated and the bones separated. Nowhere does it say X-ray, and even if you have no medical knowledge, you can surely see it’s not an X-ray.
You’re no evidence to support your X-ray story. Confirmation bias makes people blind to everything other than what they want to see, and then they fly off on increasingly unrealistic parabolas in an effort to support their blindness.
btw I’ve no medical knowledge but it seems to me that clearly there was a major fracture to the bone on the right, and if God had performed the instant surgery claimed, He would have done a much better job, and had no need to make the bones look exactly as if they grew back together over a period of time, as they appear to have done.
btw there is a faint thin line near the top of that bone, but there’s also one in the same position on the other leg. Possibly artifacts, common on old photos.
T
tonyrey
Guest
You have overlooked the fact that a scrupulous investigation (which is insisted on by the Church) would include X-rays taken subsequently. Do you believe the Pope and cardinals are intent on deceiving everyone?
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