Billions of people have HD video cameras in their pockets: why aren't we seeing lots of miracles on video?

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I think that it is safe to say that if someone wants to believe in a miracel, there will always be sufficient evidence.
 
Little Tiger,
I went to the stay catholic site as well as the reform Judaism site and found them both interesting. Interesting enough to begin tomorrow perusing the other links you had cited. There were several things mentioned in those sites that have piqued my curiosity and if nothing else I am of the curious sort.
Code: 
  "The truth that you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new."

 The above quote is from Pema Chodron-a Buddhist nun. Be well-stay safe.
 
Bradski said:
I think that it is safe to say that if someone wants to believe in a miracel, there will always be sufficient evidence.
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Not objective evidence. There will only be sufficient objective evidence if the event is, in fact, a miracle. Objective, true evidence is independent of the disposition of any individual. The physical healings at the Marian Shrine of Lourdes, France is the prime example of objective evidence. A key point to take note of is that the Medical Bureau of Lourdes, which examines alleged cures at the shrine, is not solely Catholic - any medical expert, whether he is an atheist, agnostic, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, or Protestant, is free to serve on the committee and take part in either authenticating or rejecting alleged cures. And this is no mere hypothetical - unbelieving doctors do in fact prove the reality of miraculous healings at Lourdes. The same goes for the Church’s process of declaring deceased persons “Blessed” and “Saint” - scientifically proven miracles are required, and the Church actually prefers to use unbelieving medical/scientific experts in the process, given that objective evidence is independent of any person’s disposition, and has the probative force to convince any unbiased seeker of truth. I would strongly recommend checking out the following links (and a book that I will also mention) for more detailed information on this topic:
pamphlets.org.au/docs/cts/australia/html/acts1518.html
catholicpamphlets.net/pamphlets/THE%20MIRACLES%20AT%20LOURDES.pdf
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/miracles-and-evangelism
catholic.com/magazine/articles/eucharistic-miracles-evidence-of-the-real-presence-0
therealpresence.org/archives/Church_Dogma/Church_Dogma_026.htm
And the book that I very highly recommend is The Miracle of Lourdes by non-Catholic journalist Ruth Cranston. It can be purchased here - amazon.com/Miracle-Lourdes-Ruth-Cranston/dp/0385241879 or here - barnesandnoble.com/w/miracle-of-lourdes-ruth-cranston/1000277710
You might also consider reading The Healing Fire of Christ by Fr. Paul Glynn - ignatius.com/Products/HFC-P/the-healing-fire-of-christ.aspx
May God bless you my friend. Be well :).
 
Strydersroom said:
To be totally honest, if David Copperfield lived in biblical times, he would absolutely be seen as a miracle worker, a wizard, and yes a God by many.
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I dont think so, D.C. is just employing smoke and mirrors, he is not using real magic like it was practiced back then. I think they would have blown him out of the water with some of the things they could do, like turning a staff into a real living snake, only way Copperfield could have done this was to have the conditions right, lighting right, a live snake ready to go, in hiding, etc.

Although I think its actually a good thing real magic was lost to the ages, I dont think people today could use that kind of power responsibly.
 
puzzledtoo said:
Little Tiger,
I went to the stay catholic site as well as the reform Judaism site and found them both interesting. Interesting enough to begin tomorrow perusing the other links you had cited. There were several things mentioned in those sites that have piqued my curiosity and if nothing else I am of the curious sort.
Code: 
  "The truth that you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new."

 The above quote is from Pema Chodron-a Buddhist nun. Be well-stay safe.
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Puzzledtoo,
Good. Please feel free to send me a private message any time. I am more than happy to discuss anything you’d like. I wish you well, and you are in my prayers. May God bless you!
 
Little_Tiger said:
My friend,
Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence. Again, please see the two links I provided which actually supply positive evidence for the exodus.

God bless you dear friend.
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I did supply positive evidence. Please actually read the link I provided. I merely quoted the point which most directly addressed the point you had made earlier.

From the article
Thus the “conquest” model derived principally from the book of Joshua, so promising in the beginning, is now seen to have fared rather badly in more recent research. We must conclude that as an overall model for understanding the origins of Israel, the whole notion of a literal “Exodus-wilderness wanderings-Conquest” episode is now unproductive and indeed detrimental, since it is challenged by current archaeological and historical research. The possible experience of some tribal elements in Egypt and Transjordan, or the scattered violence accompanying early phases of the settlement in Canaan, were undoubtedly minor factors… Today there are considerable data to support “non-invasion” models of the Israelite settlement in Canaan.
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JapaneseKappa said:
I did supply positive evidence. Please actually read the link I provided. I merely quoted the point which most directly addressed the point you had made earlier.

From the article
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I apologize for not acknowledging that. Forgive me, but I won’t be able to respond until tomorrow, as it is 1:25 AM where I am and if I’m smart I will get to bed :D.

May Almighty God bless you my friend.
 
Alright folks, we have some interesting answers here. Many thanks for your participation. I do not have time to reply individually, so I’d like to reply to what I view as a summary of the various answers given here:
  1. Phone cameras are too new or not widespread enough to have captured some miracles by now.
Not true, we’ve had this capability for a decade at least. There are more phones than human beings. There are more Chinese people with iPhones than Americans in total. I once met a refugee from Congo who said he lived in a tent in the jungle next to a cow. He showed me pictures of his favorite cow on his smartphone. 👍 Not only are smartphones everywhere, CC cameras are always on, and satellites are always watching. There has been plenty of time for someone, somewhere, to capture a bonafide supernatural event live in HD.
  1. True miracles can’t be captured on video.
Jesus and tons of saints performed miracles that could easily be captured on video. Walking on water, raising Lazarus, walking through walls, disappearing, levitating, the stigmata, whatever. Jesus even promised his followers that they would do greater works than he did. So, where are these tremendous acts?
  1. Miracles are happening, but they’re indistinguishable from the operation of chance, technology, and nature, and we’re advanced enough to know that now.
I agree with this actually. I wouldn’t call these events “miracles” however.
  1. There are tons of miracles, and they only happen within the Catholic Church, just read all these books and visit all these websites that say so.
When I was a boy I remember the elderly people used to leave this kind of stuff on the tables in the back of the church. I remember the bloody hosts, waxy incorruptibles, weeping statues, stern warnings of cataclysm and doom from various Marian apparitions, etc. It was terrifying to me as a child. Now it seems indistinguishable to me from the UFO or Illuminati conspiracy stuff. How about this, I will investigate these books if you read Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Hume’s* Essay Concerning Human Understanding* and Plato’s Phaedrus. Deal?
  1. Miracles have never happened, that’s why we don’t have video of them happening now.
Hmmmm…:hmmm:
  1. Belief in miracles is simply the result of confirmation bias.
So, miracles don’t happen, that’s why we don’t have video of them. But, people believe they do happen because they approach the unknown with a desire to confirm their previously held beliefs. :hmmm:

All very interesting answers, thank you.
 
PumpkinCookie said:
  1. There are tons of miracles, and they only happen within the Catholic Church, just read all these books and visit all these websites that say so.
When I was a boy I remember the elderly people used to leave this kind of stuff on the tables in the back of the church. I remember the bloody hosts, waxy incorruptibles, weeping statues, stern warnings of cataclysm and doom from various Marian apparitions, etc. It was terrifying to me as a child. Now it seems indistinguishable to me from the UFO or Illuminati conspiracy stuff. How about this, I will investigate these books if you read Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Hume’s* Essay Concerning Human Understanding* and Plato’s Phaedrus. Deal?
.
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Dear friend,
You did forget to mention the testimony of numerous medical professionals, many of whom are not Catholic (you may wish to read of the conversion of agnostic Nobel Prize winning surgeon Alexis Carrell, who himself witnessed a cure) who have confirmed time and time again the reality of healings at Lourdes. Remember, there is no secretiveness there- any doctor, be he atheist, agnostic, Jew, or other, may visit Lourdes, France and investigate the documents, put together by real physicians, which confirm that approximately 7,000 cures at the shrine have been declared by the Lourdes Medical Bureau to be inexplicable by medical science. You may even go there and ask to investigate the documents yourself, if you like. Do you have a bias against human testimony? (Given that you seem to balk at the notion of believing what “books and websites” say). And I must say it is disturbing to me that you equate the testimony of innumerable medical professionals with UFOs, conspiracy theories, etc…if you are an honest seeker of truth, I would highly recommend reading* The Miracle of Lourdes* by Ruth Cranston, a Protestant journalist. It is available on Amazon for apparently as low as a penny :eek: -
amazon.com/Miracle-Lourdes-Ruth-Cranston/dp/0385241879
I do not see why you require us to read the works of Plato and Hume for you yourself to do an honest investigation of the truth. Please reconsider the notion that truth cannot be found in a book or on a website, but only in an HD video.
May Almighty God bless you and keep you.
 
Little_Tiger said:
Dear friend,
You did forget to mention the testimony of numerous medical professionals, many of whom are not Catholic (you may wish to read of the conversion of agnostic Nobel Prize winning surgeon Alexis Carrell, who himself witnessed a cure) who have confirmed time and time again the reality of healings at Lourdes. Remember, there is no secretiveness there- any doctor, be he atheist, agnostic, Jew, or other, may visit Lourdes, France and investigate the documents, put together by real physicians, which confirm that approximately 7,000 cures at the shrine have been declared by the Lourdes Medical Bureau to be inexplicable by medical science. You may even go there and ask to investigate the documents yourself, if you like. Do you have a bias against human testimony? (Given that you seem to balk at the notion of believing what “books and websites” say). And I must say it is disturbing to me that you equate the testimony of innumerable medical professionals with UFOs, conspiracy theories, etc…if you are an honest seeker of truth, I would highly recommend reading* The Miracle of Lourdes* by Ruth Cranston, a Protestant journalist. It is available on Amazon for apparently as low as a penny :eek: -
amazon.com/Miracle-Lourdes-Ruth-Cranston/dp/0385241879
I do not see why you require us to read the works of Plato and Hume for you yourself to do an honest investigation of the truth. Please reconsider the notion that truth cannot be found in a book or on a website, but only in an HD video.
May Almighty God bless you and keep you.
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I have looked at a few links you provided. None of them provide evidence that the cures were miraculous (unless I overlooked something). They basically say: there is no natural explanation, therefore the supernatural explanation wins by default. That’s not how this works. If there is no natural explanation, then the only logical conclusion is: “We don’t know.”
 
Cheiron said:
I have looked at a few links you provided. None of them provide evidence that the cures were miraculous (unless I overlooked something). They basically say: there is no natural explanation, therefore the supernatural explanation wins by default. That’s not how this works. If there is no natural explanation, then the only logical conclusion is: “We don’t know.”
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Two points my friend: firstly, we need not say “we don’t know” since all of these cures are occurring at the shrine where the Blessed Virgin Mary is alleged to have appeared. Would we be so biased as to call it a “coincidence” that 7,000 medically inexplicable cures have occurred at the site of an alleged apparition of the Mother of God?
Also, it is not true simply to say that there is no natural explanation, but that it is beyond the powers of nature. There is absolutely no appeal to the “God of the gaps” with Lourdes. When the Church accepts a cure as miraculous, it is not simply on the grounds that there is no medical explanation, but that the cure was found by medical professionals surpass the power of nature entirely, including some unknown natural explanation. Here is a quote from one of the sources I provided:
“Though we may not know all that nature can perform, we do know that there are certain things she cannot do.” Contemporary science is aware that certain things are entirely beyond nature, such as the sudden disappearance of a metal plate from a man’s skull and the replacement with new bone (as in the case of John Traynor) or the setting of a broken limb where a substantial amount of bone had been missing.
May God bless you my friend, be well! 🙂
 
Furthermore, consider the words of the Nobel Prize winning agnostic surgeon Alexis Carrell, who wrote the following before his conversion to Catholicism - “If God exists, miracles are possible. But does God exist objectively? Does the Virgin exist outside our own minds? How am I to know? . . . To convince me that miracles exist, I would have to see an organic disease cured, a leg growing back after amputation, a cancer disappearing, a congenital dislocation suddenly vanishing. If such things could be scientifically proved then it would be permissible to admit the intervention of a supernatural power.”
 
Little_Tiger said:
Two points my friend: firstly, we need not say “we don’t know” since all of these cures are occurring at the shrine where the Blessed Virgin Mary is alleged to have appeared. Would we be so biased as to call it a “coincidence” that 7,000 medically inexplicable cures have occurred at the site of an alleged apparition of the Mother of God?
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What was inexplicable in the late 19th century does not mean it’s inexplicable today. Medicine has advanced quite a bit. So I’m certainly skeptical of miraculous healings from that era.

Having visited Lourdes myself. I’m somewhat surprised the number is actually that low, given how many visitors it has.
Also, it is not true simply to say that there is no natural explanation, but that it is beyond the powers of nature. There is absolutely no appeal to the “God of the gaps” with Lourdes. When the Church accepts a cure as miraculous, it is not simply on the grounds that there is no medical explanation, but that the cure was found by medical professionals surpass the power of nature entirely, including some unknown natural explanation. Here is a quote from one of the sources I provided:
“Though we may not know all that nature can perform, we do know that there are certain things she cannot do.” Contemporary science is aware that certain things are entirely beyond nature, such as the sudden disappearance of a metal plate from a man’s skull and the replacement with new bone (as in the case of John Traynor) or the setting of a broken limb where a substantial amount of bone had been missing.
May God bless you my friend, be well! 🙂
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Could you please tell me which source that was? I hope it’s not too much trouble. Thank you for your good wishes, I hope you have a good day too. 🙂
 
Cheiron said:
What was inexplicable in the late 19th century does not mean it’s inexplicable today. Medicine has advanced quite a bit. So I’m certainly skeptical of miraculous healings from that era.

Having visited Lourdes myself. I’m somewhat surprised the number is actually that low, given how many visitors it has.

Could you please tell me which source that was? I hope it’s not too much trouble. Thank you for your good wishes, I hope you have a good day too. 🙂
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Your skepticism of late 19th century cures is understandable. Yes, we have come a long way, and thank God for that! But take a look at the list of the miracles the Church has approved (only 69 out of 7,000, since they must be absolutely certain of the miraculous character before they approve it as such) and see that numerous miracles have been proven throughout the 20th century and in fact into the 21st, to our own day (it would also be worthwhile to investigate the healings which are necessary for a person’s beatification and canonization in the Catholic Church, as the Church employs scientists to prove these in the same way as Lourdes, and in fact the Church prefers to use non-believing experts to erase any trace of bias in the investigation. This would be worthwhile since saints are being canonized to this very day, and so we have the most modern scientific testimony, just like at Lourdes).
Interestingly, the surprisingly low number adds to the credibility of those authenticated cures - the doctors will only authenticate cures which are genuinely beyond nature, and they are entirely ready and willing to reject “cures” that are invalid. Regardless of how many people claim to have been cured, the doctors must take their duty seriously and rigorously investigate alleged healings.
Oh, I am sorry, my mistake. It’s no trouble at all my friend -
catholicpamphlets.net/pamphlets/THE%20MIRACLES%20AT%20LOURDES.pdf
Of course, and I thank you!
Be well and God bless you my friend!
 
buffalo said:
Cameras did capture Fatima.
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They did? Hm, I wasn’t aware of that. I know that thousands of people, including atheists, witnessed the miracle of the sun, but I didn’t know there was video. 🤷
 
PumpkinCookie said:
So, miracles don’t happen, that’s why we don’t have video of them. But, people believe they do happen because they approach the unknown with a desire to confirm their previously held beliefs. :hmmm:
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I witnessed what I now believe to be a miracle, but I could never have filmed it, even if I had a camera.

My mum went into a coma and was taken to hospital, her breathing was a horrible gurgling sound; the doctors said she had days to live, and there was nothing further they could do for her. We called a priest, none of us had a faith at the time, but we just thought it was what you should do. As the priest prayed my mums gasping for air seemed to change, she seemed to relax and started to breathe more normally. About ten minutes after the priest walked out the door, mum came round and started to speak, she had no recollection of anything that happened in hospital for the last two days, or that the priest had said prayers over her.

She lived another ten years, my mum regarded this as a blessing, But somehow through my mums faith in God, I went from being agnostic to finding a greater faith myself.

There is no way I would think to point a video at the doctor when he was about to say, your mum is about to die. I would not think of videoing the priest praying over my mum, when we still thought she was about to die. When she came round, we thought it might just be a temporary reprieve, so we would not have filmed it.

And just to make another point, all those things could have been faked on camera, and people would think it was a hoax.

The important thing was I witnessed this happening, and it has changed me, I know it will not change anyone else. So there is a purpose to miracles, and going viral on youtube does not seem to fulfil that purpose.
 
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