Bin Laden's 'letter to America'

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Sure sounds like some recent posts to this group, doesn’t it?
 
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gilliam:
Sure sounds like some recent posts to this group, doesn’t it?
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Shocking letter…and yes, it does sound like recent posts.
 
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gilliam:
Sure sounds like some recent posts to this group, doesn’t it?
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Yes:eek: It most certainly does!Maybe the posts should be traced;) I am sure Karl Keating could use 25 million;) 😛 God Bless
 
EXACTLY. I asked Matt25 yesterday “Whose side are you on??”

He really doesn’t get it.

His rhetoric and the terrorists’ rhetoric are scarily similar.

I really don’t mind the “I am against all wars, and I don’t like this one” people. I really don’t. BUT…

We are at war. RIGHT NOW, in fact.

Whose side do you want to be on??

Side of representative democracy?? OR side of despotic tyranny??

Occupation by Coalition Security forces training Iraqis to be self-sufficient??? OR occupation by machete-waving Baatists??
 
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jlw:
EXACTLY. I asked Matt25 yesterday “Whose side are you on??”
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I am on the side of the Pope and Cardinal Ratzinger. You have the right to oppose the Church hierarchy but accusing those of us who support it of being Muslim extremists is a mark of your own moral stature, such as it is.
 
I am sorry I made the comment now. I didn’t intend to start a ‘he said’ / ‘she said’ thread. What I would be interested in is a discussion from both sides on the points Bin Laden made. Are any of them valid? Any not?
 
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Matt25:
What is the evidence that this letter is authentic?
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Do you believe the Guardian?

observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,845725,00.html

Online document: the full text of Osama bin Laden’s “letter to the American people”, reported in today’s Observer. The letter first appeared on the internet in Arabic and has since been translated and circulated by Islamists in Britain.

also see:
observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,846511,00.html

The translated letter was originally posted in Arabic on a Saudi Arabian website previously used by al-Qaeda to disseminate messages. Within the last two weeks British Islamists have translated the letter, the most comprehensive explanation of bin Laden’s ideology to be issued for several years, and posted it on English-language websites run from the UK.

The letter was sent to hundreds of subscribers to an email list run by Mohammed al-Massari, the UK-based Saudi Arabian dissident whose Committee for the Defence of Legitimate Rights has opposed the al-Saud regime for more than a decade. Yesterday al-Massari denied he supported terrorism in any way. Al-Massari has recently been granted permanent residence in Britain, a move which angered foreign governments who claim that the UK is still a haven for extremists.

Al-Massari’s email and bin Laden’s letter show ideological similarities. Both stress that the ‘holy war’ is defensive.

…

Although there is no way to confirm the authenticity of the letter beyond all doubt, senior Arab journalists in the Middle Eastern media believe the letter is from bin Laden. ‘It is an extraordinary glimpse into his mind,’ one told The Observer.
 
or Salon?

There’s no way to know for sure whether the latest missive ostensibly from Osama bin Laden actually comes from the hand of the arch-terrorist. But experts suspect that if the 4,000-word manifesto, published in translation on Sunday in London’s Observer, wasn’t penned by bin Laden himself, it’s the work of one of his followers, …

archive.salon.com/news/feature/2002/11/28/letter/index_np.html
 
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Matt25:
What is the evidence that this letter is authentic?
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Matt25 the person that I refered to in my post has been suspended,it is not you.God Bless
 
The letter answers the question: What do they want?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

…

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling’s, and trading with interest.

…

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: “Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers’) hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” [Quran9:13-1]
 
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gilliam:
The letter answers the question: What do they want?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

…

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling’s, and trading with interest.

…

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: “Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers’) hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.” [Quran9:13-1]
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Is this a recent Letter?
 
Let’s send him a reply:

Dear Osama,
How are things going? Are you enjoying living in a cave and being unable to go outside during daylight hours? Do you still get that shiver up your spine when you hear our warplanes flying overhead? We look forward to seeing you soon. You will love Gitmo Bay. We will make sure that you have the opportunity to meet Allah personally as quickly as possible.
Sincerely,
The USA
 
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cestusdei:
Let’s send him a reply:

Dear Osama,
How are things going? Are you enjoying living in a cave and being unable to go outside during daylight hours? Do you still get that shiver up your spine when you hear our warplanes flying overhead? We look forward to seeing you soon. You will love Gitmo Bay. We will make sure that you have the opportunity to meet Allah personally as quickly as possible.
Sincerely,
The USA
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Don’t you think accused persons are entitled to a fair trial? After all equality before the law means everyone does it not? Unless you trust the federal government to decide who is worthy of fair treatment and who is not.

Of course someone will say that the victims of the september 2001 attacks had no fairness. Quite so, but democracies are bound by higher standards than terrorists. Catholics at least are forbidden from doing evil so that good may come from it.

Unless you know better than the Church that is.
 
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Matt25:
Don’t you think accused persons are entitled to a fair trial? After all equality before the law means everyone does it not? Unless you trust the federal government to decide who is worthy of fair treatment and who is not.

Of course someone will say that the victims of the september 2001 attacks had no fairness. Quite so, but democracies are bound by higher standards than terrorists. Catholics at least are forbidden from doing evil so that good may come from it.

Unless you know better than the Church that is.
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Accused of what? He declared war on the US and the West, and he has admitted to 9/11. Just what are you saying he is only ‘accused’ of?
 
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gilliam:
Accused of what? He declared war on the US and the West, and he has admitted to 9/11. Just what are you saying he is only ‘accused’ of?
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You cannot be executed for words alone, only deeds. And the deeds need to be proven. In most legal systems a person cannot be convicted simply on their own testimony corroborative evidence needs to be produced. And constant re-runs of the September 2001 events do not constitute evidence linking bin Laden to them.

I do not doubt that he is guilty, although naturally enough as a good Catholic I oppose the Death Penalty, what I am saying is that it is in being scrupulously fair to those who seem least to deserve it that we can demonstrate what our values really are.
 
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Matt25:
You cannot be executed for words alone, only deeds. And the deeds need to be proven. In most legal systems a person cannot be convicted simply on their own testimony corroborative evidence needs to be produced. .
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I am not a lawyer, but this doesn’t sound right. He admitted to the crime of his own volition. We have evidence of the crime. That is all that is needed. Frankly, I think, for whatever reason, you are putting much more into this than need be.

I agree that he is guilty, and I am against the death penalty. But he is also an enemy combantant who is still out to cause us harm. If we have to kill him to stop him, so be it. It is justified.

Not sure what that has to do with this thread though.
 
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