Bipartisan Health Care Effort

[Theo520]

You talk as if I’m responsible for them, are they not adults?
Maybe they’ll need to spend less and live within their means. Maybe they will retire much later. There are many options besides a mandated income for all from the state coffers.

And if people made mistakes in life and did not plan sufficiently or even if they underestimated what their costs could be in old age, then what? You tell them too bad? Tough luck when you’re sick and need care.

 

[YADA]

Getting sick should not be such a financial setback that it requires a bankruptcy filing.

Well - we are not speaking of merely “getting sick” … this was a major medical event -

As I said - health insurance does not equate to health care - he received great health care … he also could have had major medical insurance - a choice … and chose not to which would have covered the majority of the costs … that was a personal decision … the bankruptcy is not due to his illness but to the choices he made with his finances.

Like the person who chooses to drive drunk … would you shelter them from bankruptcy when they hit and injure someone? - Alcoholism is an illness as are many addictions … - doubt it …

 

[ProVobis]

Well - we are not speaking of merely “getting sick” … this was a major medical event -

As I said - health insurance does not equate to health care - he received great health care … he also could have had major medical insurance - a choice … and chose not to which would have covered the majority of the costs … that was a personal decision … the bankruptcy is not due to his illness but to the choices he made with his finances.

Like the person who chooses to drive drunk … would you shelter them from bankruptcy when they hit and injure someone? - Alcoholism is an illness as are many addictions … - doubt it …

Under the ACA personal bankruptcies have halved in number.

 

[ucfengr]

I wish you a long, happy and prosperous retirement. I really do. Moreover, this grasshopper is living off of the monies he accumulated whilst working throughout his career, and wisely invested.

Perhaps you didn’t understand the reference.

In a field one summer’s day a Grasshopper was hopping about, chirping and singing to its heart’s content. An Ant passed by, bearing along with great toil an ear of corn he was taking to the nest.

 "Why not come and chat with me," said the Grasshopper, "instead of toiling and moiling in that way?"

 "I am helping to lay up food for the winter," said the Ant, "and recommend you to do the same."

 "Why bother about winter?" said the Grasshopper; "We have got plenty of food at present." But the Ant went on its way and continued its toil.

 When the winter came the Grasshopper had no food and found itself dying of hunger - while it saw the ants distributing every day corn and grain from the stores they had collected in the summer. Then the Grasshopper knew: It is best to prepare for days of need.

The Catholic Church has and continues to run some of the finest hospitals in the world. I worked in one once, run by the Sisters of Charity. The Holy Father is the head of the orders and congregations that run those institutions.

I would think that while the Holy Father himself may not be a medical doctor or nurse, there have been religious who have been nurses and many upstanding doctors have happened to be Catholic and would ensure that he is well informed on the realities of health care in today’s world. So I would think he is pretty in tune with the health care needs of his flock, just as, perhaps the Franciscan superior keeps him up-to-date on the fate of the poor in the cities.

Moreover, caring for the sick is a Biblical mandate, cf Matthew 25.

We can quibble on the best method, but I think the Holy Father is on solid Biblical ground in deeming health care a right. I don’t think he has dictated to individual nations on how to carry on that mandate, just that it needs to be carried on.

That’s like saying the British Prime Minister runs the NIH. It’s technically true, but irrelevant to the PM’s actual expertise in health care. Catholic hospitals charge for services. If health care is a right, how do you justify charging for health care services? How do Catholic hospitals justify poaching doctors for their rich first world customers from third world countries, like Iraq, Sudan, etc, where there is not adequate, let alone surplus medical care? If health care is a right, it can’t be a right just for rich people, which in practice, is what it is. There are people in Africa that are dying due to a lack treatment for simple things like diarrhea, while people in rich, first world countries complain about having to pay for a checkup. I would argue that the emphasis on the right to free health care for rich white people while ignoring Africans, etc. is counter to our Catholic faith.

 

[Sy_Noe]

the bankruptcy is not due to his illness but to the choices he made with his finances.

That’s a lot of baloney. His finances have suffered because of his medical costs.

 

[Sy_Noe]

You talk as if I’m responsible for them, are they not adults?
Maybe they’ll need to spend less and live within their means. Maybe they will retire much later. There are many options besides a mandated income for all from the state coffers.

Jesus didn’t say don’t care for the sick if they are adults. Sure there are other options. If state coffers aren’t going to be part of it, and only individual charity, then individuals had better be opening there wallets even more. There are a lot of costly surgeries and drugs and care that people need. This the 21st century. Costs are much higher than 2000 yrs ago.

 

[YADA]

That’s a lot of baloney. His finances have suffered because of his medical costs.

His finances suffered because he let his insurance lapse when he could have chosen to obtain it …

This is like blaming all the bankruptcies related to the housing meltdown on the big banks … and the greedy big banks … that was only part of the issue …

I know many people who were refinancing their homes regularly during the housing boom … they would run up credit card debt buying all kinds of “Stuff” … then refinance pay off the credit cards cards and go on another spending spree then repeat and repeat again …

When the market collapsed they were left with mortgages they couldnt afford and many with the latest round of credit card and auto debt … Greed is not the sole provision of businesses - its a human condition …

Purchasing life insurance and health insurance is much the same - far too many people think they dont get a return on that “investment” … you cant drive it, watch it or play with it nor eat it in some fancy or fast food restaurant … there is no bragging value to owning it and its far down on the priority list …

That is just a fact … the stories are sad and its unfortunate but blaming the system and taking money from others who do a better job with their life decisions [and making them feel bad for doing so] is unjust

 

[Sy_Noe]

His finances suffered because he let his insurance lapse when he could have chosen to obtain it …

And with universal coverage he would not have had to be faced with that choice. But we could go on and on and we will never agree. So hope God always blesses you and yours with the best of health and wealth.

 

[_Abyssinia]

And with universal coverage he would not have had to be faced with that choice. But we could go on and on and we will never agree. So hope God always blesses you and yours with the best of health and wealth.

Are you supportive of single payer? How else would you have universal cover? It has been, “estimated that Sanders’ health proposal would cost the government an additional $32 trillion to what it pays now.”: npr.org/2016/05/09/477402982/study-sanders-proposals-would-add-18-trillion-to-debt-over-10-years

How could such a cost be afforded by the US government?

 

[Sy_Noe]

Are you supportive of single payer? How else would you have universal cover? It has been, “estimated that Sanders’ health proposal would cost the government an additional $32 trillion to what it pays now.”: npr.org/2016/05/09/477402982/study-sanders-proposals-would-add-18-trillion-to-debt-over-10-years

How could such a cost be afforded by the US government?

Absolutely. At the very least I’d like a public option. Many other countries of less wealth have figured out. The greatest country on earth or the one Donald Trump must believe isn’t the greatest because he wants to make it great again, can’t seem to. But then I don’t worship the almighty dollar over caring for the sick.

 

[gnjsdad]

Are you supportive of single payer? How else would you have universal cover? It has been, “estimated that Sanders’ health proposal would cost the government an additional $32 trillion to what it pays now.”: npr.org/2016/05/09/477402982/study-sanders-proposals-would-add-18-trillion-to-debt-over-10-years

How could such a cost be afforded by the US government?

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

 

[OraLabora]

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

 

[_Abyssinia]

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

What countries, if any, with single payer healthcare, have better health outcomes when it comes to cancer survival rates, early diagnosis of diseases etc. compared to the USA?

 

[_Abyssinia]

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

In what countries with single payer do there “health outcomes nearly always outrank” the USA?

 

[Sy_Noe]

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

Bingo!

 

[Sy_Noe]

In what countries with single payer do there “health outcomes nearly always outrank” the USA?

I posted somewhere the other day various links with comparisons of wait times and outcomes. You must have missed them or weren’t going to believe the studies anyway.

 

[Theo520]

Sy, “need” is highly subjective.

I think people with T2 Diabetes should lose weight, so they most likely won’t need the drugs. Yes, much of our expensive health needs are preventable. Let people make their choices.

Jesus didn’t say don’t care for the sick if they are adults. Sure there are other options. If state coffers aren’t going to be part of it, and only individual charity, then individuals had better be opening there wallets even more. There are a lot of costly surgeries and drugs and care that people need. This the 21st century. Costs are much higher than 2000 yrs ago.

 

[OraLabora]

Sy, “need” is highly subjective.

I think people with T2 Diabetes should lose weight, so they most likely won’t need the drugs. Yes, much of our expensive health needs are preventable. Let people make their choices.

It’s not that simple. I have T2 but am fit, ride my road bike 4000 km every season, and hike in the mountains several times a week in winter. And I have lost about 25 lbs since diagnosis 6 years ago. Yet I still need meds. My T2 is hereditary. It’s also a progressive condition.

My wife has plenty of T2s in her medical practice that are rail-thin.

Obesity is a risk factor, but by no means the only cause. Obviously hereditary causes like mine aren’t a choice.

 

[ucfengr]

If the government carries on as it does now (allowing the healthcare industry virtual free rein regarding pricing of its goods and services), then this estimate is probably accurate. However, if the government is allowed to strictly regulate healthcare prices, as governments in all advanced countries do, then costs will be dramatically lowered. Look at just about any advanced country, and you’ll find they pay per capita about half of what we pay here for health services, and their health outcomes nearly always outrank ours. All of them have governments that are intimately involved in healthcare pricing.

The for-profit system is at the root of America’s healthcare predicament.

If health care is a right, how do we justify anybody profiting from it? Doctors should earn no more than the median US wage. We need to get the profit motive out of it so doctors and other health care professionals will act solely out of love for their fellow man, not the pursuit of filthy lucre.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I posted somewhere the other day various links with comparisons of wait times and outcomes. You must have missed them or weren’t going to believe the studies anyway.

Can you find what you posted and post it here? I’m open minded.

Where are health outcomes under single payer better than the system currently in the USA?