Birth control for the long term married...A situation moral dilemma!

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FightingFat

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Say you’ve been married for 10 or 15 years. You’ve accepted children as a gift from God and done everything the way you should and as a consequence been blessed with 4 or 5 wonderful healthy children.

Now suppose your wife is smaller than average and the last pregnancy really took it out of her, there were complications and some difficulty in the last birth, the baby and the wife were nearly lost.

Say your wife is frightened to have any more children, she doesn’t think her body can take it and feels that 4 wonderful, healthy children is amazing and any more could be asking for trouble. Say you agree, bringing up those children is hard work and you already feel stretched as a parent; unable to offer the individual time and attention each one of your wonderful children deserves. Say you were terrified by the last pregnancy and birth and had to watch you newborn baby lying on the floor, not breathing, while you held the umbilical chord to stop your wife from bleeding to death.

Say your wife is pushing you to take measures…Precautions. You don’t want to, you feel twisted and torn, but you know it would be the sensible thing to do, it would save a lot of heart ache and monthly worry. It would allow your wife to relax a bit and get on with raising the wonderful children you have.

Would you consider some form of birth control? If yes, Which? If no, for what reasons?
 
some form of birth control? yeah NFP, it IS a form of birth control:D

obviously not something you wish to hear but it’s the correct answer
 
Is there a difference between “long term” and “short term” married couples in matters of faith and morality? I would hope that both couples are equally in it for the long haul in matters of the moral life.
 
The above situation would hypothetically be serious reasons for employing NFP, but not contraceptives. The scenario where the couple lost a child might be a serious reason in the short term, but could not in my estimation, warrant a permanent child contraceptive mentality.

Scott
 
as CCC and Humanae Vitae define no situation where ABC can be used so the first 1308 letters are *argumentum ad misericordiam *(new words in my latin vocabulary:D )
 
Is it okay to commit a grave and dangerous sin with complete knowledge and consent just because your cross may be a little heavier than someone else’s? I don’t know–go ask Job.:rolleyes:
 
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st_felicity:
Is it okay to commit a grave and dangerous sin with complete knowledge and consent just because your cross may be a little heavier than someone else’s? I don’t know–go ask Job.:rolleyes:
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Great point!:clapping:
 
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felra:
Is there a difference between “long term” and “short term” married couples in matters of faith and morality? I would hope that both couples are equally in it for the long haul in matters of the moral life.
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I think that the point I was trying to illustrate by the story was that the couple had been faithfull to Catholic teaching for the term of their marriage- ie to accept children, lovingly, as a gift from God. Not for a few years then given up, but for a long time.

Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?

Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
😛
 
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FightingFat:
Say you’ve been married for 10 or 15 years. You’ve accepted children as a gift from God and done everything the way you should and as a consequence been blessed with 4 or 5 wonderful healthy children.

Now suppose your wife is smaller than average and the last pregnancy really took it out of her, there were complications and some difficulty in the last birth, the baby and the wife were nearly lost.

Say your wife is frightened to have any more children, she doesn’t think her body can take it and feels that 4 wonderful, healthy children is amazing and any more could be asking for trouble. Say you agree, bringing up those children is hard work and you already feel stretched as a parent; unable to offer the individual time and attention each one of your wonderful children deserves. Say you were terrified by the last pregnancy and birth and had to watch you newborn baby lying on the floor, not breathing, while you held the umbilical chord to stop your wife from bleeding to death.

Say your wife is pushing you to take measures…Precautions. You don’t want to, you feel twisted and torn, but you know it would be the sensible thing to do, it would save a lot of heart ache and monthly worry. It would allow your wife to relax a bit and get on with raising the wonderful children you have.

Would you consider some form of birth control? If yes, Which? If no, for what reasons?
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Natural Family Planning is your solution.

Your scenario is irrelevant-- contraception is never permissable. The teaching is not based on totality, which is what you are trying to imply. The teaching is based on EACH act of intercourse.
 
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FightingFat:
Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
😛
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I try to think with the mind and heart of the Church by taking responsibility to inform and well-form my conscience. Therefore, this is what I think:

“’every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible’ is intrinsically evil” (CCC 2370).

“Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception)”. (CCC 2399)

“Conscience must be informed and moral judgment enlightened. A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. The education of conscience is indispensable for human beings who are subjected to negative influences and tempted by sin to prefer their own judgment and to reject authoritative teachings”. (CCC 1783)

“A well-formed conscience is upright and truthful. It formulates its judgments according to reason, in conformity with the true good willed by the wisdom of the Creator. Everyone must avail himself of the means to form his conscience”. (CCC 1798)
 
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FightingFat:
So doesn’t NFP render procreation impossible?
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No. NFP respects and cooperates with the natural fertility cycles. Contraception opposes and attempts to “render procreation impossible”. Here is the full quote from CCC paragraph 2370:

2370 “Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods **respect **the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:”
 
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FightingFat:
yep, it’s called a zipper, modern form of chastity belt for males.
give your wife a rest, sonny, and consider her needs for a change instead of yours - by the way this is a general comment aimed at married men in generally, not necessarily the “hypothetical” middle-aged dad in the example given above.
part of marriage is knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, periodice abstinence, whether practiced with the aid of NFP methods or for longer periods, such as at least a year after a difficult childbirth, is the method practiced by men who love their wives, time-honored, no side effects. The problem is it presupposes a marriage where true intimacy abides and where the relationship is not one dimensional. In other words, where they have developed many ways of communicating and showing affection that do not depend on sex.

as I have said many times before, younguns, learn from the generation that cut its teeth on the sexual revolution. ABC kills a marriage faster than a speeding bullet. It destroys intimacy and places physical gratification above all other goods of the marriage, and even denies those goods (unitive and procreative). It creates a real, physical barrier, whether of latex or chemicals, between husband and wife that is insurmountable as it may be imperceptible. It kicks God out of the relationship which is deadly in itself. It will lead to an old age where the couple realizes the only thing holding them together was the kids, and when sex goes the only communication they had is also gone. Believe me, you don’t want to face this.
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Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?
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I’m not sure age has anything to do with it other than drs. have a tendency to use that as a jumping board to scare the **** out of their patients. If a 45 year old woman should get pregnant, it’s closer to being a miracle than a hardship. It’s far more likely that she won’t get pregnant at all.
Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
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Yes, of course, we can discuss this issue if you’ll kindly can the rude comments. In line with that, I’ll continue…
**I would agree this couple has cause to use NFP, although I doubt they will need to for more than a few years considering her age. It IS effective and certainly healthier than treating the normal functions of a body like a disease to be chemically treated or hacked at with a scalpel! **
I don’t think how many children they already have or how long they’ve been devout makes any difference to the decision. You don’t get to say "Well Lord, times up and I’ve had enough. This is the last straw! You’ll just have to apply some of my saved up obediance & faith to balance out this sin for awhile."
That said, I will tell you that I’ve been there and done that and I KNOW how scared this couple may be. I cried off and on the entire last 2 months of my 8th pregnancy because I so did not want to go into labor! But, of course, I did and I got through it to a happy end.
Now I can hear you saying, but what if it had NOT been a happy ending? Well, what if it hadn’t? If I had died and the baby had lived, my husband would have to carry the full load - but I imagine that’s better than an empty load and he wouldn’t love that baby any less. What if the baby died? How sad and heartbroken I would be. How blessed to have had that child with us for even such a short time. What if we both died? Well, again my dh would be left with the full load and again I’m sure he would have a hard time. But other men have done it and been blessed for having done so in the past. Do not live in fear of being too weak to carry a cross you have not been given - it’s pointless pain and makes the burdens you do have seem heavier than they really are.
My husband and I use NFP for now w/o temp. charting. (That’s just too hard for us right now because I have a 10 month old that still wants to wake up for feedings 4 - 6 times a night!) If I don’t get pregnant, well that’s okay by me for now. If I do, well we’ve learned the hard way that we can handle what needs to be handled when it happens - somehow or other - as long as we hang on to each other and pray. It doesn’t always seem that way while we’re in the thick of things, but once we come out the other side - we look back and think how amazing it was. It helps to keep in mind that I’ve yet to have had a baby I regret. Life is good. Life can be hard too, but it’s still good - so we choose life. Hands down and bar none, we’ve never regretted that choice.
 
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FightingFat:
Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
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Baaaaaah!

Yep, I’m a sheep, and proud of it! The best part of it is that my Shepherd is a Lamb!

Baaaaaah!
 
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FightingFat:
Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
😛
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Damn straight.

Lamb or goat, your choice.
 
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puzzleannie:
yep, it’s called a zipper, modern form of chastity belt for males.
give your wife a rest, sonny, and consider her needs for a change instead of yours - by the way this is a general comment aimed at married men in generally, not necessarily the “hypothetical” middle-aged dad in the example given above.
part of marriage is knowing when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em, periodice abstinence, whether practiced with the aid of NFP methods or for longer periods, such as at least a year after a difficult childbirth, is the method practiced by men who love their wives, time-honored, no side effects. The problem is it presupposes a marriage where true intimacy abides and where the relationship is not one dimensional. In other words, where they have developed many ways of communicating and showing affection that do not depend on sex.

as I have said many times before, younguns, learn from the generation that cut its teeth on the sexual revolution. ABC kills a marriage faster than a speeding bullet. It destroys intimacy and places physical gratification above all other goods of the marriage, and even denies those goods (unitive and procreative). It creates a real, physical barrier, whether of latex or chemicals, between husband and wife that is insurmountable as it may be imperceptible. It kicks God out of the relationship which is deadly in itself. It will lead to an old age where the couple realizes the only thing holding them together was the kids, and when sex goes the only communication they had is also gone. Believe me, you don’t want to face this.
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Great post Annie…I always like your posts!

Why do you think ABC creates a barrier? Why does it affect a relationship? Does it have to mean you change your behaviour?
 
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FightingFat:
So doesn’t NFP render procreation impossible?
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Aaaahhhh…no…? How would it? The couple is cooperating with the way God designed their bodies. If conception happens, though it was unintended, the couple is still cooperating with the conception by not altering God’s design.
 
Rob’s Wife said:
I’m not sure age has anything to do with it other than drs. have a tendency to use that as a jumping board to scare the **** out of their patients. If a 45 year old woman should get pregnant, it’s closer to being a miracle than a hardship. It’s far more likely that she won’t get pregnant at all.

**Yes, of course, we can discuss this issue if you’ll kindly can the rude comments. **
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Sorry, I wasn’t being rude, it’s just difficult to discuss when people just place a glib comment or a judgement instead of offering reasons for their opinions…Unlike yourself who has been gracious enough to proffer your opinion: -

**
Rob's Wife:
In line with that, I’ll continue…
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**I would agree this couple has cause to use NFP, although I doubt they will need to for more than a few years considering her age. It IS effective and certainly healthier than treating the normal functions of a body like a disease to be chemically treated or hacked at with a scalpel! **

I don’t think how many children they already have or how long they’ve been devout makes any difference to the decision. You don’t get to say "Well Lord, times up and I’ve had enough. This is the last straw! You’ll just have to apply some of my saved up obediance & faith to balance out this sin for awhile."

That said, I will tell you that I’ve been there and done that and I KNOW how scared this couple may be. I cried off and on the entire last 2 months of my 8th pregnancy because I so did not want to go into labor! But, of course, I did and I got through it to a happy end.

Now I can hear you saying, but what if it had NOT been a happy ending? Well, what if it hadn’t? If I had died and the baby had lived, my husband would have to carry the full load - but I imagine that’s better than an empty load and he wouldn’t love that baby any less. What if the baby died? How sad and heartbroken I would be. How blessed to have had that child with us for even such a short time. What if we both died? Well, again my dh would be left with the full load and again I’m sure he would have a hard time. But other men have done it and been blessed for having done so in the past. Do not live in fear of being too weak to carry a cross you have not been given - it’s pointless pain and makes the burdens you do have seem heavier than they really are.

My husband and I use NFP for now w/o temp. charting. (That’s just too hard for us right now because I have a 10 month old that still wants to wake up for feedings 4 - 6 times a night!) If I don’t get pregnant, well that’s okay by me for now. If I do, well we’ve learned the hard way that we can handle what needs to be handled when it happens - somehow or other - as long as we hang on to each other and pray. It doesn’t always seem that way while we’re in the thick of things, but once we come out the other side - we look back and think how amazing it was. It helps to keep in mind that I’ve yet to have had a baby I regret. Life is good. Life can be hard too, but it’s still good - so we choose life. Hands down and bar none, we’ve never regretted that choice.**

Well, you are amazing! That really is inspirational, thank you for sharing!
 
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