Birth control for the long term married...A situation moral dilemma!

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FightingFat:
Trelow!!! Leave it!
well if you’re going to sin, sin big!

All totally inappropriate joking aside, I can feel for your situation. With the state of my wife, if we were to conceive there us a good chance we would lose the baby, and possibly her. And for that reason we us the Creighton model of NFP. I strongly suggest that you look into it., It’s very difficult at first, but there is so much more to sex that than genital stimulation.

God bless you and guide you in your choices.
 
Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?
Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
Yes, it would be hard work. Fortunately, in the scenario you shared, this is balanced by the wisdom of age and older children to help out. I am the oldest of five. My youngest sibling was born when I was 6 and my mom was almost 40. My sister and I took special delight in taking care of the new baby. 🙂

As for the sheep allusion, it all depends on the shepherd, don’t you think? If we trust God and the Church, we can start with obedience. It isn’t blind obedience since we have a lot of trust in the shepherd. Obeying is just a beginning. With this particular topic, I came to obey later in my marriage. Then I wanted to know “why”. I heard Janet Smith’s “Contraception, why not” and read “Good News for sex and marriage”. Now I am ready to tackle Theology of the Body (I think). Each builds on the original trust.

As to what we really think… I know a couple well where she is in her mid 40s. Because of problems with her last pregancy, he is unwilling to have another child. She won’t use ABC so he has chosen abstinence. Another couple in the same situation might chose NFP, using strict rules. Each couple will look at the situation differently.
 
I would respectfully suggest to you, Rob’s Wife, that you are reading too much into my “attitude” in my post. There is no attitude intended and I did state that a vasectomy would result in a guilty conscience
To which I repeat and quote myself:

(Which I agree you may or may not have intended!)
I’m sorry if I seemed to be “flaming” you, that was not my intention - my point was to illustrate the wording of your post (which is all us reading can go by) that seemed to have sparked others.

Basiclly, it is kind of like the condom arguement for teens (please don’t go there here - put it in a new thread please) where the parent says “I’m not condoning teen sex, I’m just explaining to them that they can use a condom if they do it.” What the parent needs to do is say and the child to hear is "No! Do NOT have sex at all because this, that, and the other could happen and your faith tells you it’s a mortal sin! Wait! Have faith! Be strong and you will not regret it!"

The Church is often refered to in motherly terms for just this reason! She has the duty of telling us what is good for us and leading us to make the right choices. She doesn’t just hand us a bunch of “options” and wash her hands of us if we don’t happen to pick the right one.
 
Rob’s Wife said:
To which I repeat and quote myself:

I’m sorry if I seemed to be “flaming” you, that was not my intention - my point was to illustrate the wording of your post (which is all us reading can go by) that seemed to have sparked others.

You are welcome to flame me all you like. I have broad shoulders.

However, I do not want anyone to put words into my post that were not there. I in no way condoned any immoral act. Abuse I can take, however I want it to be abuse based on what I said.

That some people might disagree with me for being sympathetic to this man’s plight is also acceptable to me. What is not acceptable to me is that someone posts a questions asking for advice and gets only quotes from the Catechism. Certainly, this is the simple course. Certainly, that is the right advice. However, it fails to put a human face on the situation and reach out in a real and Christian way to a fellow human being in distress. In response to those quotes, the original poster – in desperation, I imagine—lashed out with an accusation of all of us following blindly and not thinking.

I simply tried to reach out to a fellow Christian. I wanted to make it clear to him that I was listening and I appreciate his plight. I did not condone anything wrong. I advised him that abstinence was the only 100% effective means of preventing contraception. Clearly, he was – based on the content of his original post – considering a vasectomy. Equally clearly, he has moral qualms with that. It would be irresponsible of me to be unsympathetic to the person in need and merely quote rules.

That in no way is meant to imply that the rules of Holy Mother Church are wrong and I didn’t say that they were, nor do I say so now.

I have been accused of all sorts of cruel things because I tried to help a person in need of support. It is being implied that I am advising this person to have a vasectomy. I’m not doing that. I also did not present a list of choices and leave it at that. I presented a list of choices and then refused to make a choice for someone else.

“Why,” you might ask, “would I refuse to make a choice for someone else?”

That is a reasonable question. If there is a significant risk of an unborn baby dying or the mother dying as a result of the pregnancy, then I do not think I can responsibly suggest natural family planning to the person. By significant risk, I mean a risk elevated above what is considered normal as death is always a possibility. Natural family planning is fine for healthy people with normal risk factors.

However, I know that I – as a husband – would consider it morally unacceptable to put my wife and an unborn child at risk of death. Therefore, abstinence is the only course of action I can responsibly recommend.

So far, no one has been able to tell me what part of “Abstinence is the only 100% effective means of preventing contraception” statement is wrong. I would love to hear what is wrong with that statement.

The person who posted the original question is not a child experimenting with premarital sex. He is a grown man with a family and I am not his mother, nor am I his priest, nor am I speaking for the church. Clearly, there are other people to fill those roles. The purpose of my original post was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; I did that by offering him the best advice I can based on reality – that abstinence is the best, safest, most morally sound choice.

Anyone who wants to judge me based on something else read into that is welcome to do so.
 
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CatholicPoet:
The purpose of my original post was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; I did that by offering him the best advice I can based on reality – that abstinence is the best, safest, most morally sound choice.
I meant to include at the end of that paragraph:

“But ultimately, the choice must be made by the husband and wife together and they must bear the consquences of it.”

I edited something off the end that might have, upon further reflection, been taken as being critical of a previous post, which I did not intend. I deleted one too many sentences. :o
 
CatholicPoet wrote: What is not acceptable to me is that someone posts a questions asking for advice and gets only quotes from the Catechism. Certainly, this is the simple course. Certainly, that is the right advice. However, it fails to put a human face on the situation and reach out in a real and Christian way to a fellow human being in distress.
I don’t believe FightingFat has either of those issues with me. Exact opposite even I think… As far as saying that mentioning and stressing catholic teaching/choice is a failure to reach out in a “Christian way” - I really have no idea of what would be a more christian way to reach out to him then.
I did not condone anything wrong. It would be irresponsible of me to be unsympathetic to the person in need and merely quote rules.
Again I have not once just quoted “rules” and I was very sympathetic and still am.
I also did not present a list of choices and leave it at that. I presented a list of choices and then refused to make a choice for someone else.
:confused: What’s the difference? And, by the way, it’s not possible to make a choice for someone else in this situation - certainly not just by posting on the internet. No one here is making any choice for this man, but some are offering more help to make the better choice than others.
…If there is a significant risk of an unborn baby dying or the mother dying as a result of the pregnancy, then I do not think I can responsibly suggest natural family planning to the person.

And you would be irresponsible ito your faith to do so. There is no reason why NFP could not be used in that situation. Fear would be guiding your actions, not logic or faith or responsiblity. And you just contradicted your above statement that you do "not condone anything wrong". Apparently, you do if the situation meets your qualifications. Truth and right don’t change just becuase they become hard or scary to follow.

a risk elevated above what is considered normal as death is always a possibility. Natural family planning is fine for healthy people with normal risk factors.

NFP is fine for anyone. Although those with higher risk would obviously want to be stricter in its use than those with less life-threatening reasons.
However, I know that I – as a husband – would consider it morally unacceptable to put my wife and an unborn child at risk of death. Therefore, abstinence is the only course of action I can responsibly recommend.
:confused: Again, you contradict yourself…
So far, no one has been able to tell me what part of “Abstinence is the only 100% effective means of preventing contraception” statement is wrong.
Absolutely nothing is wrong with that statement. It’s all the other stuff you post around it that is the issue.
The person who posted the original question is not a child experimenting with premarital sex. He is a grown man with a family
Of course, I concede that point of fact. My analogy was to explain the wrong thinking on the part of the parent’s logic in dealing with the issue of birth control and was not intended to demean FightingFat as an immature teen.
I am not his mother, nor am I his priest, nor am I speaking for the church.
Thank goodness! But the issue at hand is whether or not you were speaking as a Catholic with sound Catholic advise. I would say that at times you do and at times you don’t - sometimes in the same post.
The purpose of my original post was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; I did that by offering him the best advice I can based on reality – that abstinence is the best, safest, most morally sound choice.
Actually, most of your post was about options and only a small amount had anything to do abstinence. If that’s the best advice you’ve got and that’s your reality, then … well… I’m sorry.
Anyone who wants to judge me based on something else read into that is welcome to do so
Good grief! All any of us can do is read the cotton-pickin’ posts. THAT’S what I was trying to explain in my post earlier. All I know is what you wrote and that’s what I responded to and am responding to now. I’m not judging you, but sure as heck disagree with your sometimes contradictory and contrary statements.
 
Tough situation. It sounds like you know the right answer. God bless you in making a decision. —KCT
 
Rob's Wife:
However, I know that I – as a husband – would consider it morally unacceptable to put my wife and an unborn child at risk of death. Therefore, abstinence is the only course of action I can responsibly recommend.
:confused: Again, you contradict yourself…****.
Please, then, explain to me how this is a contradiction.
 
Dear fighting fat - It is obvious that you are very upset about this situation and you are looking for some good honest help. I don’t have experience with NFP, but it is a avenue I believe you should persue. According to several posts many families rely on this 100%. Maybe after trying it, you’ll like it and it will work for your family? Start there, it can’t hurt if you use it correctly. I think God will pull you through this as you go and you will find peace with your decision. What’s the saying? God does not give you anything that you can’t handle! I’m praying for the heath of your family.:love:
 
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CatholicPoet:
Please, then, explain to me how this is a contradiction.
Not that I am anyone worth listening to, but if it is any consolation I understood the intent of your earlier posts and did not take them as advising (or morally approving of) a vasectomy. Granted, it may have not been the best-worded thing in the world, but certainly does not warrant all this hubballoo.

Scott
 
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CatholicPoet:
You are welcome to flame me all you like. I have broad shoulders.

The person who posted the original question is not a child experimenting with premarital sex. He is a grown man with a family and I am not his mother, nor am I his priest, nor am I speaking for the church. Clearly, there are other people to fill those roles. The purpose of my original post was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; I did that by offering him the best advice I can based on reality – that abstinence is the best, safest, most morally sound choice.
nor am I speaking for the church” …but I am, by simply presenting authentic Church teaching from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

**"**The purpose of my original post was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; I did that by offering him the best advice I can based on reality" …“The purpose of my posts was to support a fellow man in a moment of need; i did that by offering him the best advice I can based on authoritative Church teaching”.
 
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CatholicPoet:
Please, then, explain to me how this is a contradiction.
In the paragraph above that you had written:
…If there is a significant risk of an unborn baby dying or the mother dying as a result of the pregnancy, then I do not think I can responsibly suggest natural family planning to the person.

and I agree with Scott that this is getting out of hand and off topic. Enough said already.
 
Artificial birth controll is ALWAYS a mortal sin It does not matter the situation or anything else.

NFP or abstinance is the only acceptable ways.
 
Please…
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FightingFat:
So it’s ok because there’s a greater chance of it not working?
…this totally disregards what I ACTUALLY said and erroneously characterizes NFP. I said that NFP does not CONTRAdict the design of our bodies (designed by God)–in other words, it does not corrupt the natural process with chemicals or devices–sex is engaged in as GOD MADE IT TO BE. Any use of CONTRAception (any kind) corrupts God’s design. Unlike cats, that ovulate upon the sexual act (that’s why there can be many fathers for a single litter), the human creation has periods of infertility. Is this an accident? God gave us reason and free will to cooperate with his design or not. This doesn’t mean you have to TRY to have all the babies possible–just work within his design. If you cooperate–you do God’s will, if you don’t, it is called sin. If you don’t cooperate and you do so with full knowledge and consent–it is a MORTAL SIN.
 
Scott Waddell:
Not that I am anyone worth listening to, but if it is any consolation I understood the intent of your earlier posts and did not take them as advising (or morally approving of) a vasectomy. Granted, it may have not been the best-worded thing in the world, but certainly does not warrant all this hubballoo.
Thank you, Scott. I have tried through this entire discussion to be open-minded and respectful of others and to say nothing that would be hurtful or inflammatory. If I am wrong about something that I have said, then I really do want somone to explain to me why I am wrong. But so far, no one has done that.
 
I think you’re alright CatholicPoet!
👍
Can I ask how members feel that the Churches teaching on a decision of conscience affects this discussion?
 
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FightingFat:
I think you’re alright CatholicPoet!
👍
Can I ask how members feel that the Churches teaching on a decision of conscience affects this discussion?
It is the decision of a rightly-formed conscience? Or is it a self-serving, excuse-searching conscience?
 
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FightingFat:
I think you’re alright CatholicPoet!
👍
Can I ask how members feel that the Churches teaching on a decision of conscience affects this discussion?
Thanks for the vote of confidence!

But… I’m not sure I really have an answer for your question about conscience, or, specifically, a decision of conscience.

Conscience is a lot like an idiot light on the dashboard of your car. It is built in at the factory and it starts to blink if something is wrong. Like an idiot light on the dashboard, you could take out the bulb, put tape over it so you can’t see it, disable it in some other way or simply ignore it. If you do that, whatever is wrong might just get worse…

If you’re conscience is telling you a given decision is wrong, it is wise to listen to it and take a better look at the decision you are making. With a good education in church teaching and a genuine love of God and your fellow man, conscience won’t lead you astray.
 
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FightingFat:
I think that the point I was trying to illustrate by the story was that the couple had been faithfull to Catholic teaching for the term of their marriage- ie to accept children, lovingly, as a gift from God. Not for a few years then given up, but for a long time.

Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?

Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).
😛
I’m not sure what the discussion would be about. NFP works. It is permitted to limit the size of your family for serious reasons – which these are. As someone who was in a similar position during the peri-menopausal and menopausal years, I have to say that abstaining was easy when we thought about the risks of pregnancy.
 
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