Birth control for the long term married...A situation moral dilemma!

[Jennie]

FightingFat:

I think that the point I was trying to illustrate by the story was that the couple had been faithfull to Catholic teaching for the term of their marriage- ie to accept children, lovingly, as a gift from God. Not for a few years then given up, but for a long time.

Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?

Can we have a little more discussion? Like what do you all think? Or do you just do what you are told (Baaaaaah).

My husband and I have been married for ten years, and have four beautiful children. We use a very loose method of NFP. (We don’t take temps, etc. When we think I’m fertile, we don’t have sex) It has worked for 3 years now. If I do get pregnant, it will be tough, but I can only see it as something that will only enrich our lives.

As far as an “old couple” getting pregnant, my mother-in-law had her seventh child when she was 46. The baby has Down Syndrome. Yes, it has been hard work for them, but the blessings have far exceded that in many ways.

Jennie

 

[FightingFat]

st_felicity:

Aaaahhhh…no…? How would it? The couple is cooperating with the way God designed their bodies. If conception happens, though it was unintended, the couple is still cooperating with the conception by not altering God’s design.

So it’s ok because there’s a greater chance of it not working?

 

[CatholicPoet]

FightingFat:

Say your wife is pushing you to take measures…Precautions. You don’t want to, you feel twisted and torn, but you know it would be the sensible thing to do, it would save a lot of heart ache and monthly worry. It would allow your wife to relax a bit and get on with raising the wonderful children you have.

Let’s give this guy a little bit of a break… or at least some sympathy. It sounds to me like he’s pretty upset about a moral dilemma and would like to receive at least a little bit of Christian love and understanding in addition to quotes from the Catechism. I, too, would be hurt and tend to react with criticism (baaah!) if I came looking for understanding and received only cold facts. (Nevertheless, that having been said, thought the “Yep! I’m a sheep and proud of it!” comment was brilliant.)

I understand what you’re going through, friend. I’ve been there myself.

The background information isn’t really relevant to the central question, which, I think, is this: “would it be morally permissible to commit one sin, specifically vasectomy, to prevent a situation arising from an act of loved shared with your wife that could possibly result in the death of your beloved wife, an unborn child or both.”

This is a tough one. Basically, what you want to be told is that one sin is smaller than the other and that it is okay because it prevents a greater evil. I am not qualified to tell you that.

The morally-safe answer is to abstain from sexual activity if pregnancy is a possibility. Abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control. (Even that, I suppose, is not absolutely 100% effective since we know of one documented case in which a virgin conceived, but there were certainly special circumstances!)

Abstinence is easy for me to suggest; it would be harder for you and your wife to do, even believing as you both do that one slip could result in a tragedy.

So, your choices as I see them are:

1. Abstinence. So close to 100% effective as to be almost a sure thing. Easy to mess up.
2. Natural Family Planning. I remember hearing that done correctly, it is around 90% effective. (I could be wrong about this percentage.) You’d have a morally clear conscience but some possibility of tragedy if an unplanned pregnancy resulted in the death of your wife or the unborn child or both.
3. Vasectomy. High probability of preventing conception. Few worries about unexpected pregnancy. Guilty conscience.

The best advice I can give you is to discuss this with your wife. Seriously consider the various possibilities. Pray together about it. Then go to your priest and ask him to consider your situation and offer advice. Ultimately, though, you and your wife have to make the decision. And you have to live with the decision you make.

 

[Trelow]

CatholicPoet:

1. Vasectomy. High probability of preventing conception. Few worries about unexpected pregnancy. Guilty conscience.

Not a good choice if you want to remain in good standing with the Chrurch.

 

[Genesis315]

FightingFat:

I think that the point I was trying to illustrate by the story was that the couple had been faithfull to Catholic teaching for the term of their marriage- ie to accept children, lovingly, as a gift from God. Not for a few years then given up, but for a long time.

Because as we all know, God doesn’t want us to be moral our whole lives, just for a long time, then we can sin all we want.

Can we at least accept that if you were a forty-five year old woman and you got pregnant and had already had several children, it would be hard work?

Of course, and getting out of hard work is always an acceptable excuse for immorality.

 

[puzzleannie]

FightingFat:

Great post Annie…I always like your posts!

Why do you think ABC creates a barrier? Why does it affect a relationship? Does it have to mean you change your behaviour?

ABC creates a barrier because that is what it is designed to do.

It effects the relationship because it places gratification of the husband’s sexual drive over all other needs and concerns, and this inevitably is going to lead to resentment. If the couple recognizes a legitimate health or other reason why pregnancy is not possible at this time, and is unable or unwilling to practice periodic or absolute abstinence as long as the problem exists, this means that for them sex has greater priority than all other aspects of marriage. It also means that they are unable or unwilling to explore intimacy on any level except the physical. As I said, if you listen to the experience of my generation, where there is an explosion of divorce among “good Catholics” who are past child-bearing age, you will find resentment among women at being treated like sex objects, aided and abetted by use of ABC which was condoned even by our priests. You will find couples totally unable to communicate when sexual desire wanes.

 

[Trelow]

puzzleannie:

ABC creates a barrier because that is what it is designed to do.

It effects the relationship because it places gratification of the husband’s sexual drive over all other needs and concerns, and this inevitably is going to lead to resentment. If the couple recognizes a legitimate health or other reason why pregnancy is not possible at this time, and is unable or unwilling to practice periodic or absolute abstinence as long as the problem exists, this means that for them sex has greater priority than all other aspects of marriage. It also means that they are unable or unwilling to explore intimacy on any level except the physical. As I said, if you listen to the experience of my generation, where there is an explosion of divorce among “good Catholics” who are past child-bearing age, you will find resentment among women at being treated like sex objects, aided and abetted by use of ABC which was condoned even by our priests. You will find couples totally unable to communicate when sexual desire wanes.

I believe it works both ways sweetheart.

 

[CatholicPoet]

Trelow:

Not a good choice if you want to remain in good standing with the Chrurch.

I wasn’t suggesting any specific course of action, merely summarizing possible choices.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

**

I’m not sure age has anything to do with it other than drs. have a tendency to use that as a jumping board to scare the **** out of their patients.

**

---

Oh my! please note that for some reason CA felt a need to put " **** " in place of the word cp and not the much more vulgar alternative.**

 

[Trelow]

CatholicPoet:

I wasn’t suggesting any specific course of action, merely summarizing possible choices.

Just making sure, because I’ve heard the argument; " well if I have the vasectomy on friday, I can just go to confession saturday, then everything will be ok." Then I have to go into the whole sacrilege thing and get my butt chewed out for “judging” them.

 

[felra]

Let’s give this guy a little bit of a break… or at least some sympathy. It sounds to me like he’s pretty upset about a moral dilemma and would like to receive at least a little bit of Christian love and understanding in addition to quotes from the Catechism. I, too, would be hurt and tend to react with criticism (baaah!) if I came looking for understanding and received only cold facts. I understand what you’re going through, friend. I’ve been there myself.

This is a tough one. Basically, what you want to be told is that one sin is smaller than the other and that it is okay because it prevents a greater evil. I am not qualified to tell you that.

The morally-safe answer is to abstain from sexual activity if pregnancy is a possibility.

Abstinence is easy for me to suggest; it would be harder for you and your wife to do,…

So, your choices as I see them are:

1. Abstinence. So close to 100% effective as to be almost a sure thing. Easy to mess up.
2. Natural Family Planning. I remember hearing that done correctly, it is around 90% effective. (I could be wrong about this percentage.) You’d have a morally clear conscience but some possibility of tragedy if an unplanned pregnancy resulted in the death of your wife or the unborn child or both.
3. Vasectomy. High probability of preventing conception. Few worries about unexpected pregnancy. Guilty conscience.

The best advice I can give you is to discuss this with your wife. Seriously consider the various possibilities. Pray together about it. Then go to your priest and ask him to consider your situation and offer advice. Ultimately, though, you and your wife have to make the decision. And you have to live with the decision you make.

I get it. Your version of offering “Christian love and understanding” is to offer this poor struggling gentlemen, who is trying to discern and honor God in his marriage, the blatantly immoral "choices as I see them"choice of having a “Vasectomy”? Then you disown your “best advice” by giving the disclaimer “And you have to live with the decision you make”.That is rude and deceiving and basically a “wolf in sheeps clothing” who leads others into sin that the Gospel warns Chrisitians about. Shame on you.

I recommend that you spend more time reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church before offering “compassionate” sin options to those honestly seeking to know and do God’s will. :tsktsk:

 

[CatholicPoet]

felra:

I get it. Your version of offering “Christian love and understanding” is to offer this poor struggling gentlemen, who is trying to discern and honor God in his marriage, the blatantly immoral "choices as I see them"choice of having a “Vasectomy”? Then you disown your “best advice” by giving the disclaimer “And you have to live with the decision you make”.That is rude and deceiving and basically a “wolf in sheeps clothing” who leads others into sin that the Gospel warns Chrisitians about. Shame on you.

I recommend that you spend more time reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church before offering “compassionate” sin options to those honestly seeking to know and do God’s will. :tsktsk:

Slow down! I wasn’t suggesting anything – I was simply summarizing possible choices. Any one of those choices could be made. Some are better than others. I suppose another choice would be plug his wife with a .45 and run off with a stripper from Reno, but I didn’t suggest that because no reasonable husband would seriously consider that.

However, there are reasonable American men who choose to have a vasectomy. That is a decision at odds with church teaching; I fully recongnize that. I in no way implied that a vasectomy was the right decision or the best decision or the proper decision, merely that it is a course of action open to him.

We all have many choices open to us that are immoral. That is a fact of life. I am not encouraging anyone to make such a choice, merely recognizing that such exists.

My best advice was that he and his wife would ultimately make the decision. By “you,” I meant the “you two” as a couple. I should have made that more clear. It is a fact that whatever choice they make, they will have to live with it. I am not disavowing anything; merely observing that there are consequences to any action.

My version of Christian love and understanding includes being sympathetic to someone in distress. It also includes trying to act as a sounding board and summarizing possible courses of action. If you read into that that I was recommending any course of action, you went far beyond what I actually said.

 

[Rob_s_Wife]

My version of Christian love and understanding includes being sympathetic to someone in distress.

Okay.

It also includes trying to act as a sounding board and summarizing possible courses of action. If you read into that that I was recommending any course of action, you went far beyond what I actually said

See there is where you went wrong - sorta anyhow.

I see nothing wrong with loudly saying this, that, and the other are wrong choices to make for this, that and other reasons.

BUT, you really didn’t express it that way in your post. It was more of a well-you-could-do-this-if-you-wanted-to-but-it’s-kind-of-frowned-on-you-know attitude type post. (Which I agree you may or may not have intended!) And that really doesn’t convey a strong enough message on what IS the right choice to make both naturally and according to the Faith - which is what would actually be of help to this man/couple.

I’m sure this man knows what he *can *do, but what he’s struggling with is knowing what he should do. My advice: Be a sheep and let God do His job and create life, or not, as He deems fit! Sheep are such blissfull, content creatures you know.

 

[felra]

CatholicPoet:

Slow down! I wasn’t suggesting anything – I was simply summarizing possible choices. Any one of those choices could be made. Some are better than others. I suppose another choice would be plug his wife with a .45 and run off with a stripper from Reno, but I didn’t suggest that because **no reasonable husband would seriously consider that. **

However, there are reasonable American men who choose to have a vasectomy. That is a decision at odds with church teaching; I fully recongnize that. I in no way implied that a vasectomy was the right decision or the best decision or the proper decision, merely that it is a course of action open to him.

My version of Christian love and understanding includes being sympathetic to someone in distress. It also includes trying to act as a sounding board and summarizing possible courses of action. If you read into that that I was recommending any course of action, you went far beyond what I actually said.

Your above comments present as talking out of both sides of your mouth. Why would you even suggest the pausibility of a gravely immoral “course of action” to a fellow believer in Christ? and somehow guise this in the cover of “Chrisitan love and understanding”. I stand by my original feedback post to you.

Furthermore, the Church (this includes every adherent to the faith) is entrusted and called to raise the standard for the world and nations to see in order to give credible witness to the Way, the Truth, and the Life that is Jesus Christ (John 14:6). Misplaced compassion is in fact cruel when the eternal welfare of the person is bypassed or neglected. This is reflected in our late Pope John Paul II’s universal call to holiness for all believers.

Isaiah**, *Chapter 62:10-12 ***“Pass through, pass through the gates, prepare the way for the people; Build up, build up the highway, clear it of stones, raise up a standard over the nations. See, the LORD proclaims to the ends of the earth: Say to daughter Zion, your savior comes! Here is his reward with him, his recompense before him. They shall be called the holy people, the redeemed of the LORD, And you shall be called “Frequented,” a city that is not forsaken.”

Matthew**, *Chapter 7:13-14 “***Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few.”

Mark** Chapter 9: 42 "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe (in me) to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were put around his neck and he were thrown into the sea”.

 

[FightingFat]

Rob's Wife:

Sheep are such blissfull, content creatures you know.

Also taste great curried with rice!

 

[Trelow]

CatholicPoet:

I suppose another choice would be plug his wife with a .45 and run off with a stripper from Reno, but I didn’t suggest that because no reasonable husband would seriously consider that

 

[FightingFat]

[/quote]

Trelow!!! Leave it!

 

[CatholicPoet]

felra:

Your above comments present as talking out of both sides of your mouth. Why would you even suggest the pausibility of a gravely immoral “course of action” to a fellow believer in Christ? and somehow guise this in the cover of “Chrisitan love and understanding”. I stand by my original feedback post to you.

Please! I am not recommending any course of action. Stand by whatever you like, but if you do not recognize that a vasectomy is something that a person can do – moral consequences aside – then you are not seeing the whole picture.

If you insist on taking what I say out of context, then it is not possible to discuss it with reason. I said in my original post:

“3. Vasectomy. High probability of preventing conception. Few worries about unexpected pregnancy. Guilty conscience.”

That, morality aside for a moment, is an option.

It is likely although not certain to prevent conception.

Thus, there are few worries about unexpected pregnancy.

Guilty conscience. A guilty conscience does not fall out of space, it is a result of doing something that you know is wrong. This was in my original post.

I do not see how you can interpret what I said as recommending this course of action. Accuse me of talking out of both sides of my mouth if you must, but this is a real person with a real problem. My compassion is not misplaced; I have in no way recommended to him something immoral.

I said in my original post, point blank, that “The morally-safe answer is to abstain from sexual activity if pregnancy is a possibility. Abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control.”

The point of my post was to put aside conditions that are external to the central question. Again, I said in my original post, *“Basically, what you want to be told is that one sin is smaller than the other and that it is okay because it prevents a greater evil. **I am not qualified to tell you that.” ***(Emphasis not placed in original post.)

I get the feeling from the way the original question was worded that this fellow wants someone to tell him contraception is in a specific case morally acceptable. I am not qualified to make that judgement. I said that plain and clear; why do you insist on accusing me of suggesting something immoral when I made no such suggestion?

 

[FightingFat]

All I said was this piece of halibut is good enough for Jehovah!

 

[CatholicPoet]

Rob's Wife:

See there is where you went wrong - sorta anyhow.

I see nothing wrong with loudly saying this, that, and the other are wrong choices to make for this, that and other reasons.

BUT, you really didn’t express it that way in your post. It was more of a well-you-could-do-this-if-you-wanted-to-but-it’s-kind-of-frowned-on-you-know attitude type post. (Which I agree you may or may not have intended!)

I would agree with you if summarizing possible courses of action was all that I did. However, that summary was prefaced with: “The morally-safe answer is to abstain from sexual activity if pregnancy is a possibility. Abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control.” (Emphasis not present in original.)

and followed it with:

“The best advice I can give you is to discuss this with your wife. Seriously consider the various possibilities. Pray together about it. Then go to your priest and ask him to consider your situation and offer advice. Ultimately, though, you and your wife have to make the decision. And you have to live with the decision you make.”

Perhaps the “discuss this” was wrongly interpreted as refering to the vasectomy alone, instead of “discuss this situation,” which is what I intended. I would think that reference was clear based on the context and my advice that he ask his priest to consider their situation and offer advice.

I would respectfully suggest to you, Rob’s Wife, that you are reading too much into my “attitude” in my post. There is no attitude intended and I did state that a vasectomy would result in a guilty conscience.