E
Em_in_FL
Guest
Nope! Procreation is NOT the same thing as being FERTILEā¦Okay. Then women after menopause should cease from having sex with their husbands. No procreation is possible at that point!
- Status
E
Em_in_FL
Guest
Procreation means having relations in a way that could bring about life.
In more crude laymanās termsā¦ it means that the husband must finish inside his wife. Whether or not she is fertile at that given moment is irrelevant.
In more crude laymanās termsā¦ it means that the husband must finish inside his wife. Whether or not she is fertile at that given moment is irrelevant.
E
Em_in_FL
Guest
Iām sorry you feel that way. Please be patient because sometimes it can take a while to communicate by text online when itās difficult to discern the root of the question.
I hope my previous post was helpful to you about the definition of procreation. Without that definition I can understand how this would be confusing.
H
heart4home
Guest
As has been pointed out sex within marriage has two purposes. Procreative and unitive. When conceiving is naturally not possible it is fine to continue to engage in intercourse for its unitive purpose as long as it is completed in the act that would be procreative if the couple were able to conceive. That is the natural design of our bodies, even when all is perfect, that there will be times and seasons of life that we will not be able to conceive.
However, abstaining during fertile times or altogether is not an unnatural state. It is pefectly natural to have times where you will not engage in the marital act. When you make the choice to space children you are using the self control that God blessed you with to do so, not misusing the gift that God gave you.
When we use ABC we are enjoying the pleasure of sex with none of the risk/blessing (depending on your mind set I guess)
You have to look at what comes along with ABC.Firstly, hormonal b/c can lead to unknown abortion because while the main way the hormones work are to inhibit ovulation, they also alter the lining of the uterus so if the women does ovulate which happens sometimes when a women misses even just one pill or takes it at the wrong time of day etc. the fertilized egg will abort as it will not be able to implant.
Secondly, when it fails altogether it often will lead to an elective choice of abortion because the couple was in no way open to life and expected their b/c to work
Thirdly, when ABC fails outside of marriage it leads to STDs etc.
There is really no real comparison of the unity and commitment of a couple to each other, when they willingly follow the Churchās teachings about the purpose of the marital act, even if they together choose to abstain for a time for whatever reason, to the couple that expects the ABC to prevent all pregnancy so they can just have sex whenever they feel like it.
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
The original question is about ABC vs. living celibate in marriage.
NFP is not celibacy!
Basic biological facts that you werenāt taught in high school biology:
When I was away from the practice of my faith, I tried using hormonal contraception and hormones have a powerful effect on mood, emotion, and behavior. I was suicidal within days. I thought the NuvaRing would be better because it was isolated to local delivery and not systemic, but it was the sameāthe hormones get into your whole body system. So, I was still suicidal within days. I had to have a lovely little chat with the pharmacoās HQ in Sweden and the FDA to report this side effect. And then get insulted seeing their product placement posters in the background of scenes of āScrubs.ā LOL
(Interestingly enough, I never got pregnant in my entire adult fornicatinā life, even without NFP training, because I instinctively could tell where I was in my cycle, and Mother Nature wired my drives wrongāmy strongest drive was pre-menstrual and not during ovulation! Sort of like accidentally practicing NFP.
)
One of the college students where I work, told me of her serial marriages and relationships. She was a raging b**** so bad that men who loved her couldnāt tolerate it after a while and ended the relationship or marriage. She was convinced that she was just a raging b**** and thatās all there was to it and too bad so sad, sheād never have a relationship or marriage that lasted. So she gave up and quit using the Pill (which she started at 15). At age 35 she detoxes from all those synthetic hormones and calms down and is happy and peaceful and not puffy-overweight with migraines and screaming cranky. Sheās happy and calm! She realized that is was the Pill that made her a raging b**** and she lost 20 years of her life in a hormonal fog.
Sad, isnāt it? I guess Iām lucky that my reaction was so extreme that I couldnāt tolerate it at all. Suicidal! Who could live suicidal, constantly, through all their decades of fertile life, from menarche to menopause, all for the sake of round-the-calendar sexual access?! (Just a few days per month difference.)
Did you know that even secular non-religious feminists are waking up to the risks for women, that are all out of proportion? There are feminists and earth mama greenies practicing NFP for other than religious motivations.
Hereās another thing thatās sad. My mom used the Pill for 8 years. She died of a very fast-growing aggressive breast cancer. She died before the discovery of HER2 and hormone receptor factor testing, but my oncologist told me that I probably have the same breast cancer my mom did (I was diagnosed at age 42 and treated a few years ago.) Mine was estrogen and progesterone receptor positive, meaning either or both of those hormones would be like THROWING GAS ON A FIRE to grow my breast cancer! Guess what, those are the Pill hormones.
So, my mom died before she had to, just for a few days extra per month of sexual access, for 8 years?
Was that worth it?
To me, no. She was a wonderful lady. I was only 26 when she died and I felt orphaned. Even though I was grown and gone, I still needed her.
So I donāt think it was worth it. I donāt think my Dad did either. He couldnāt find a woman to marry in his later years after mom died. So he made the trade-off too.
You canāt know if you have these risks. What if you do? Is it worth shortening your life? ā¦moreā¦
NFP is not celibacy!
Basic biological facts that you werenāt taught in high school biology:
- (OTBE, barring medical conditions
a man is ALWAYS fertile. - (OTBE, barring medical conditions a woman is fertile only for a short time each month.
- There are comprehensible signs to know when a woman is in her fertile time. (Charting these together makes it a couples project, not just a womenās problem.)
- The coupleās level of motivation to avoid becoming pregnant is the primary factor in the success of practicing NFP. (Thereās a difference between Hell No and No But OK If God Wants To Overrule Us.)
- The level of motivation determines your safe margin of abstaining around the fertile time. Hell No has to build in a bigger margin.
When I was away from the practice of my faith, I tried using hormonal contraception and hormones have a powerful effect on mood, emotion, and behavior. I was suicidal within days. I thought the NuvaRing would be better because it was isolated to local delivery and not systemic, but it was the sameāthe hormones get into your whole body system. So, I was still suicidal within days. I had to have a lovely little chat with the pharmacoās HQ in Sweden and the FDA to report this side effect. And then get insulted seeing their product placement posters in the background of scenes of āScrubs.ā LOL
(Interestingly enough, I never got pregnant in my entire adult fornicatinā life, even without NFP training, because I instinctively could tell where I was in my cycle, and Mother Nature wired my drives wrongāmy strongest drive was pre-menstrual and not during ovulation! Sort of like accidentally practicing NFP.
)One of the college students where I work, told me of her serial marriages and relationships. She was a raging b**** so bad that men who loved her couldnāt tolerate it after a while and ended the relationship or marriage. She was convinced that she was just a raging b**** and thatās all there was to it and too bad so sad, sheād never have a relationship or marriage that lasted. So she gave up and quit using the Pill (which she started at 15). At age 35 she detoxes from all those synthetic hormones and calms down and is happy and peaceful and not puffy-overweight with migraines and screaming cranky. Sheās happy and calm! She realized that is was the Pill that made her a raging b**** and she lost 20 years of her life in a hormonal fog.
Sad, isnāt it? I guess Iām lucky that my reaction was so extreme that I couldnāt tolerate it at all. Suicidal! Who could live suicidal, constantly, through all their decades of fertile life, from menarche to menopause, all for the sake of round-the-calendar sexual access?! (Just a few days per month difference.)
Did you know that even secular non-religious feminists are waking up to the risks for women, that are all out of proportion? There are feminists and earth mama greenies practicing NFP for other than religious motivations.
Hereās another thing thatās sad. My mom used the Pill for 8 years. She died of a very fast-growing aggressive breast cancer. She died before the discovery of HER2 and hormone receptor factor testing, but my oncologist told me that I probably have the same breast cancer my mom did (I was diagnosed at age 42 and treated a few years ago.) Mine was estrogen and progesterone receptor positive, meaning either or both of those hormones would be like THROWING GAS ON A FIRE to grow my breast cancer! Guess what, those are the Pill hormones.
So, my mom died before she had to, just for a few days extra per month of sexual access, for 8 years?
Was that worth it?
To me, no. She was a wonderful lady. I was only 26 when she died and I felt orphaned. Even though I was grown and gone, I still needed her.
So I donāt think it was worth it. I donāt think my Dad did either. He couldnāt find a woman to marry in his later years after mom died. So he made the trade-off too.
You canāt know if you have these risks. What if you do? Is it worth shortening your life? ā¦moreā¦
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
ā¦continuedā¦
The epidemic of increasing breast cancer is among YOUNG WOMEN! It used to be an old womanās disease! Itās because of the use of hormonal contraceptionāaccording to my cousin, a world-class epidemiologist who wonāt let his wife or children use hormonal contraception! The first question after my breast cancer diagnosis was if I had any relatives who had had BrCa. The second question was if I had used hormonal contraception for five total years or longer in my lifetime (continuous or on and off)āthatās where the risk skyrockets. Shoot, young women who start the Pill in their teens have a decade done by the time they graduate college! Thereās your epidemic. (And no, I donāt have the BRCA1 or BRCA2 or PTEN genesāno genetic cause. Iāve been tested.)
My female genetic relatives know the risks, and their parents do too. One suffers terrible PMDD like her (Protestant) mother did, so sheās on the Pill to control that terrible dysphoria. However, itās controlling a symptom and not diagnosing or treating the underlying problem. There are clinics that will not take the easy way out like that, and work in a more detailed and lengthy way to really understand whatās going on and to treat that problem. So my niece is endangering herself to treat an alarming short-term problem, but not solving the problem, and maybe making the same trade-off. Adolescents donāt have fully developed frontal cortexes to anticipate long term consequences but her parents do. Iāve told them, but itās up to them to follow through or not. None of my business any more and I am leaving it up to God.
My other niece (another family)āher (Protestant) parents will likely put her on the Pill young, I am guessing, based on their reaction to when they found out their oldest son was sexually active with his girlfriend. Their only concern was financial losses to support a bastard child. (I assured them that legally grandparents arenāt required to pay child support or sign over a share of the farm. Her son has nothing, no property or money or income, so the bastard child would just be a welfare kid.) But their priority is social acceptability and not losing money. Iām sure theyād drive a girl to the abortion clinic and pay for it themselves just to save face and preserve assets.
They were shocked, shocked that their son was sexually active, but theyāve said and endorsed such things as āsowing your wild oatsā and speaking approvingly of cohabitation AROUND THEIR KIDS all these years. What did they expect?
Chickens, meet roost.
In my life, in my family, in a nutshell, we are seeing the truth of Paul VIās prophetic word!
On a larger level, widespread contraceptive mentality causes men in general to treat women in general as sex objects for pleasure, to treat their normal healthy state (with its potential fertility) as a dreaded disease needing obliteration, and ruins the delicate balance of male/female relationships. Iām really surprised at the prevalence of very āhardā young women who brag about cheating on their boyfriends. They have been so used up by college age, their morals are gone and they cheat before they get cheated on. Their open-hearted vulnerability and ability to bond is destroyed. This is a good thing?! Really?!
NFP makes a better world for women.
P.S. I donāt mean to publicly confess my former fornicatinā lifestyleāwhich I certainly donāt endorse. He has taken the names of the Baāals from my mouth and lifted me up and dressed me in white garments and made me clean. I am single for the Lord in the world and Jesus is my spouse and I get all the graces I need to live chastely according to my state in life. God is so good. :getholy:
The epidemic of increasing breast cancer is among YOUNG WOMEN! It used to be an old womanās disease! Itās because of the use of hormonal contraceptionāaccording to my cousin, a world-class epidemiologist who wonāt let his wife or children use hormonal contraception! The first question after my breast cancer diagnosis was if I had any relatives who had had BrCa. The second question was if I had used hormonal contraception for five total years or longer in my lifetime (continuous or on and off)āthatās where the risk skyrockets. Shoot, young women who start the Pill in their teens have a decade done by the time they graduate college! Thereās your epidemic. (And no, I donāt have the BRCA1 or BRCA2 or PTEN genesāno genetic cause. Iāve been tested.)
My female genetic relatives know the risks, and their parents do too. One suffers terrible PMDD like her (Protestant) mother did, so sheās on the Pill to control that terrible dysphoria. However, itās controlling a symptom and not diagnosing or treating the underlying problem. There are clinics that will not take the easy way out like that, and work in a more detailed and lengthy way to really understand whatās going on and to treat that problem. So my niece is endangering herself to treat an alarming short-term problem, but not solving the problem, and maybe making the same trade-off. Adolescents donāt have fully developed frontal cortexes to anticipate long term consequences but her parents do. Iāve told them, but itās up to them to follow through or not. None of my business any more and I am leaving it up to God.
My other niece (another family)āher (Protestant) parents will likely put her on the Pill young, I am guessing, based on their reaction to when they found out their oldest son was sexually active with his girlfriend. Their only concern was financial losses to support a bastard child. (I assured them that legally grandparents arenāt required to pay child support or sign over a share of the farm. Her son has nothing, no property or money or income, so the bastard child would just be a welfare kid.) But their priority is social acceptability and not losing money. Iām sure theyād drive a girl to the abortion clinic and pay for it themselves just to save face and preserve assets.
They were shocked, shocked that their son was sexually active, but theyāve said and endorsed such things as āsowing your wild oatsā and speaking approvingly of cohabitation AROUND THEIR KIDS all these years. What did they expect?
Chickens, meet roost.
In my life, in my family, in a nutshell, we are seeing the truth of Paul VIās prophetic word!
On a larger level, widespread contraceptive mentality causes men in general to treat women in general as sex objects for pleasure, to treat their normal healthy state (with its potential fertility) as a dreaded disease needing obliteration, and ruins the delicate balance of male/female relationships. Iām really surprised at the prevalence of very āhardā young women who brag about cheating on their boyfriends. They have been so used up by college age, their morals are gone and they cheat before they get cheated on. Their open-hearted vulnerability and ability to bond is destroyed. This is a good thing?! Really?!
NFP makes a better world for women.
P.S. I donāt mean to publicly confess my former fornicatinā lifestyleāwhich I certainly donāt endorse. He has taken the names of the Baāals from my mouth and lifted me up and dressed me in white garments and made me clean.
I am single for the Lord in the world and Jesus is my spouse and I get all the graces I need to live chastely according to my state in life. God is so good. :getholy:
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
Someone asked about using the Pill for treating a medical problem (when the intention is not as a contraceptive). That is not immoral according to the principle of double effect.
Thatās why a woman with an ectopic pregnancy can have her life saved even though the child is destroyed in the process. The motivation wasnāt abortion.
Thatās why my sister as my health care power of attorney is going to be a snarling cur of an advocate for me, so that if I die of metastasized cancer, she will ensure I have adequate pain medication, even if the dose is enough to cause an OD death. The primary motive is palliative, not murderous.
However, I would encourage you to find a physician that will work with you more on truly diagnosing and treating the real underlying problem. A lot of docs find it easier just to write a scrip. Thatās just treating symptoms and not solving the real problem.
Thatās why a woman with an ectopic pregnancy can have her life saved even though the child is destroyed in the process. The motivation wasnāt abortion.
Thatās why my sister as my health care power of attorney is going to be a snarling cur of an advocate for me, so that if I die of metastasized cancer, she will ensure I have adequate pain medication, even if the dose is enough to cause an OD death. The primary motive is palliative, not murderous.
However, I would encourage you to find a physician that will work with you more on truly diagnosing and treating the real underlying problem. A lot of docs find it easier just to write a scrip. Thatās just treating symptoms and not solving the real problem.
H
happymommy
Guest
No ādevout Catholicā goes against Church teaching, so you need to get a new name for your friend.Is it easy to do though, Iām very tempted to start ABC. My best friend (the most devout Catholic woman I know), told me that Iām stupid to take NFP classes and that she uses ABC.
If a devout Catholic uses ABC, why does a Catholic-In-Name-Only (Me) have to use NFP? It sucks. I donāt trust NFP at all. And our teachers have two kids in three years!
Side note: I donāt receive Communion. So put down the stones.
And just because you know and teach NFP doesnāt mean you have to avoid having a baby. You donāt know it was a āfailureāā¦did you ask them? Maybe they are āCrazy Catholicsā who want to use NFP to actually have children
what an idea!
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
Catholic sexual morality doesnāt require that every marital sex act must be only during the fertile time and hence procreative in its definition of procreative.
Itās more like, not taking measures to stand in Godās wayāevery act must be open to life whether or not itās in the fertile time (or if one spouse is infertile or postmenopausal).
No surgical, chemical, barrier, or withdrawal thwarting of Godās purposes. Donāt divide the procreational and unitive meaning of each marital act.
It makes for better sex, anyway.
Read Karol Wojtylaās book Love and Responsibility! I beg you.
Itās more like, not taking measures to stand in Godās wayāevery act must be open to life whether or not itās in the fertile time (or if one spouse is infertile or postmenopausal).
No surgical, chemical, barrier, or withdrawal thwarting of Godās purposes. Donāt divide the procreational and unitive meaning of each marital act.
It makes for better sex, anyway.
Read Karol Wojtylaās book Love and Responsibility! I beg you.
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
In the Bible, Onan was struck dead by God for withdrawingāan act of contraception.
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
Country Singer, I am interpreting CINO to be one step better than on my way out of the Catholic Church. Congratulations. God isnāt done with you yet.
G
Gingersnaps4
Guest
I have a questionā¦ If abc is intrinsically evil, why is it allowed as a treatment for other conditions, allowing the side effect of infertility. After all abortion is a mortal sin too and you cannot have an abortion as a way to solve another issue, such as saving the mothers life. I definitely see that abc can beget evil and can be used for sinful purposes, but Iām not too sure that it is intrinsically bad, a sin in every circumstance. Non-abortificants is what i mean of course. To me itās crazy that hormonal BC can even be considered as a treatment, basically trading a possible abortion for helping the motherā¦Iām hoping that doing more reading can cleAr things up more for meā¦ I think I may just be getting depressed reading all of the responses about how NFP brings couples closer together, makes marriages better and takes the burden off of women- because when both spouses donāt have the same point of view it does the opposite. So far I feel very stressed and like if I get pregnant it will be due to me not calculating right. My Dh would not lay blame, he is a good man, but now itās all on me and my judgement and with the different viewpoints I donāt feel supported. I guess I will pray that he ends up feeling the same as me.
K
kdragonfly
Guest
Actually, this does help me understand a bit.
K
kdragonfly
Guest
KentuckyLiz - sorry you lost your mom at a young age. HUGS!
T
twoangels
Guest
kdragon, its important to be able to identify what the difference is between NFP and contraceptives to see the logic. The difference is right there square in your face. You just have to have eyes to see it and a willingness to admit it. There is no lack of logic going on except in that we are not identifying the premises clearly behind the conclusions.
I will try again
Hereās the data:
Church says - 1. It is ok to have sex while you are infertile
Church says - 2. It is ok to strive to abstain from sex while married.
Church says - 3. It is ok to let knowledge of your fertility influence your choice over when to abstain and when to engage in sex
Church says 4. It is ok to use periodic abstainence to postpone or prevent pregnancy if there is a grave reason to do so for the good of the family.
Conclusion: - it is ok to chart your cycles in order to abstain from sexual activity when you are most fertile.
Data of a contracepting couple
Contracepting couples simply do not want to have children
Contracepting couples want the freedom to have sex whenever the urge hits
Contracepting couples use contraceptives to artificially make what would be a fertile act into an infertile act
Therefore, contraception removed the sacrificial abstainence, the utilization of self control and treats the natural fertility of the woman as something hostile.
This is not to say that utilizing NFP cannot be abused. Certain a couple who has no grave reason to avoid pregnancy can find that NFP feels very much like a rejection of the womanās fertility. As such, NFP can only be legimately used with prayerful discernment. The couple must discern that they are not viewing the gift of fertility with hostility. It rather should be out of respect for the goodness of the fertile aspect of sexuality that the couple with a just cause to abstain sacrifice the good of the sexual embrace during their fertile time.
The point is that it is the sacrifice that justifies NFP. Contraceptives are a way of avoiding the sacrifice, and as such they prevent couples from discerning truly whether their reasons for avoiding pregnancy are just. For the NFP couple, they must decide whether it is worth giving up a week of beautiful unitive sex for the sake of better caring for the family. If the sacrifice of giving up sex for that period of time is not worth it, the couple should not be avoiding pregnancy.
K
kdragonfly
Guest
I am starting to understand more where you are coming from. BUT at the same time, I think that if a couple does not want children, they shouldnāt feel obligated to have them. I think itās a personal decision and one that shouldnāt be made by the church. Iām pretty sure no one is going to change my opinion on that.
S
spunjalebi
Guest
Fine, we canāt change your mind just like we canāt change the minds of people who donāt want to have children but want to get married. Sure:shrug:
But I continue to urge people who think that way to consider what they would do if the wife did get pregnant, because Catholics arenāt the only ones who believe that abortion is wrong. When you are married you should be open to the idea of a child. If a couple gets pregnant and still decide they want nothing to do with the child, I would rather see them place it for adoption anyway. JMO.
But I continue to urge people who think that way to consider what they would do if the wife did get pregnant, because Catholics arenāt the only ones who believe that abortion is wrong. When you are married you should be open to the idea of a child. If a couple gets pregnant and still decide they want nothing to do with the child, I would rather see them place it for adoption anyway. JMO.
P
PatriceA
Guest
Well, if youāre set on having that opinion, then youāre right, probably nobody will be able to change your mind.
But recognize it is your opinion. If you were to enter into a Catholic marriage and had no plans to be open to life, the marriage would be invalid. And if anyone were to ask you what you thought about having children and birth control, you should never advise someone to take your opinion as a Church teaching.
K
kdragonfly
Guest
I firmly believe that there are instances when couples should not have children. Period. What about in the case of mental illness? The type and severity of course should be taken into consideration. But letās say there is a couple who get married knowing that they probably arenāt going to have children. Letās say the wife is on medication that would DEFINITELY cause birth defects. You would go ahead and either sacrifice the wifeās health and/or the babyās health for the sake of conception? And you would have the nerve to say that their marriage is invalid? Thatās insane. And insulting.
G
Gingersnaps4
Guest
I think that not wanting to have children and not being open to children can be 2 different things. I think if a person knows they wouldnāt want or love a child if they become pregnant, they should abstain. You still need to be open to the possibility of children even on birth control or strict NFP because when you have relations babies can happen regardless of what your plans are. Goodness knows now isnāt a good time for me to be pregnant but if it did happen my Dh and I would end up being thrilled, always!
- Status