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kdragonfly
Guest
I haven’t been Catholic since I was ten years old, so I’m asking in all sincerity how to distinguish between a church custom (changeable) and church teaching (non-changeable)?
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Em_in_FL
Guest
This particular discussion is regarding moral/immoral behavior - not a custom…
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kdragonfly
Guest
This makes complete and total sense to me.
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catharina
Guest
Loved your post - thanks.
Made me remember my mother’s take on BC; in her day there was no NFP only “rhythm” that was available to Catholic families. It could work but more often it didn’t work so well. My parents had and raised EIGHT of us and lost two more to miscarriage. My mother, when reflecting in her later yrs, said to me, my sister and SILs, “Really. Who would we have sent back? Who would we have NOT wanted to have in our family? Every one of our children was treasured. OF COURSE.” Perfect point, Mother. I still thank you for that one!
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kdragonfly
Guest
I’m seeing that right now… LOL
… but I’m interested in learning what other teachings are teachings and what are considered changeable customs… maybe I can find it on this website even.
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kdragonfly
Guest
“Well in all honesty, we would have sent little Joey back, but don’t let him know, okay?”
I’m happy that you have come from a large happy family. My grandmother had 6 kids, and it was FAR from a happy family, let me tell you.
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catharina
Guest
So sorry to hear that.“Well in all honesty, we would have sent little Joey back, but don’t let him know, okay?”
No doubt it colors your imaginings.
Should add here:
life was NOT all picnics and roses.
Far from it.
Yet in her later years,
with children in their 40s and 50s,
my mother could say:
“YES. We did a good thing
in accepting new life from God.”
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kdragonfly
Guest
That’s awesome!!
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choose_to_love
Guest
kd, a couple of points. First, you can’t expect to digest all you would need to know about the Catholic understanding of marriage and sexuality in one thread on the internet, IMO. Certainly you can get the basics, but I hope you are not basing your total understanding on this thread. That being said, you have gotten some good instruction so far, kudos to twoangels, em, kentuckyliz, et al.
As mentioned previously, “procreative” doesn’t mean “actually going to result in conception, or likely to”. Being “open” to life is often used as a shorthand way of describing part of the Catholic view, but in the situations you mention, i.e., post-menopausal, already pregnant, definitively infertile, it doesn’t work as shorthand; it is better, perhaps, to think of the marital act as being ordered to procreation. If it is properly ordered, the couple is not taking any affirmative steps to render that act sterile, whether by barrier, chemical, or withdrawal.
With respect to responsible parenthood in RCC thought, the couple is to prayerfully discern 1) that to which God is calling them, 2) their responsibilities to each other (i.e., is one partner wiped out from work at the time? From child care?), 3) their responsibility to the existing family (taking care of an elderly relative? special needs child?) and 4) to society. This discernment should ideally occur each month, prior to the fertile time, through prayer and communication with the other spouse. See Humanae Vitae 10: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html .
The decision about “how many” children or when to have a child is not, therefore, made by the Church, as you sorta imply in your recent post. Rather, the Church, instituted by Christ, and granted His authority, gives us the principles by which we are to apply our well formed consciences to the decision to co-create an immortal soul. Think of that! The Creator of the Universe, the trinitarian God, trusts us to prayerfully discern when to create life with Him! I have always found this an awesome and wonderful responsibility, gift, and freedom.
As to your last set of examples, the Church does teach that marriage is for the procreation and education of children, and for the good of the spouses, but given the parameters set forth in HV 10, it is, IMO, up to the couple to decide if serious reasons exist such as to require the use of periodic or total abstinence. I think the larger point of responsible parenthood in those situations you mentioned is that the couple should not have their whole reproductive lives planned out, without consulting God, before they are even married. It is an ongoing process of discernment, again each month, as to what they are being called. Certainly there are times this is a shorter discussion and discernment than at other times - - like when the newborn is still off schedule, very needy, and mom is still recovering from pregnancy, for instance. But the point is have that conversation, both between the spouses and between the spouses and God, to see what God wants you to do in a particular point in time in the relationship.
@happymommy and countrysinger: Point well taken, happym, and I thought the same thing. My bride and I teach NFP as well, and we have (at the moment), 6, 6, 3, and 1, soon to be 7,6, 4, and 1 (we’re between birthdays for #1 and #2). The oldest two are nine months apart. Failure? No way! We knew we were fertile when DS was conceived a few weeks after DD was brought home, but we were OK with that, and were blessed with DS. I should also point out #1 and #3 are adopted, and not everyone shares that story at an early age, so again, you really cannot tell by a numerical count.
kd, other posters who, among many others, who, in my experience, have numerous posts which clearly explain Church teaching in this area include 1ke, manualman, the aforementioned em, rach 620, gardenswithkids, and bookcat, again among many others, so if you trying to get a sense of Catholic thought, you could always look up the posting histories and find lots of good stuff.
As mentioned previously, “procreative” doesn’t mean “actually going to result in conception, or likely to”. Being “open” to life is often used as a shorthand way of describing part of the Catholic view, but in the situations you mention, i.e., post-menopausal, already pregnant, definitively infertile, it doesn’t work as shorthand; it is better, perhaps, to think of the marital act as being ordered to procreation. If it is properly ordered, the couple is not taking any affirmative steps to render that act sterile, whether by barrier, chemical, or withdrawal.
With respect to responsible parenthood in RCC thought, the couple is to prayerfully discern 1) that to which God is calling them, 2) their responsibilities to each other (i.e., is one partner wiped out from work at the time? From child care?), 3) their responsibility to the existing family (taking care of an elderly relative? special needs child?) and 4) to society. This discernment should ideally occur each month, prior to the fertile time, through prayer and communication with the other spouse. See Humanae Vitae 10: vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html .
The decision about “how many” children or when to have a child is not, therefore, made by the Church, as you sorta imply in your recent post. Rather, the Church, instituted by Christ, and granted His authority, gives us the principles by which we are to apply our well formed consciences to the decision to co-create an immortal soul. Think of that! The Creator of the Universe, the trinitarian God, trusts us to prayerfully discern when to create life with Him! I have always found this an awesome and wonderful responsibility, gift, and freedom.
As to your last set of examples, the Church does teach that marriage is for the procreation and education of children, and for the good of the spouses, but given the parameters set forth in HV 10, it is, IMO, up to the couple to decide if serious reasons exist such as to require the use of periodic or total abstinence. I think the larger point of responsible parenthood in those situations you mentioned is that the couple should not have their whole reproductive lives planned out, without consulting God, before they are even married. It is an ongoing process of discernment, again each month, as to what they are being called. Certainly there are times this is a shorter discussion and discernment than at other times - - like when the newborn is still off schedule, very needy, and mom is still recovering from pregnancy, for instance. But the point is have that conversation, both between the spouses and between the spouses and God, to see what God wants you to do in a particular point in time in the relationship.
@happymommy and countrysinger: Point well taken, happym, and I thought the same thing. My bride and I teach NFP as well, and we have (at the moment), 6, 6, 3, and 1, soon to be 7,6, 4, and 1 (we’re between birthdays for #1 and #2). The oldest two are nine months apart. Failure? No way! We knew we were fertile when DS was conceived a few weeks after DD was brought home, but we were OK with that, and were blessed with DS. I should also point out #1 and #3 are adopted, and not everyone shares that story at an early age, so again, you really cannot tell by a numerical count.
kd, other posters who, among many others, who, in my experience, have numerous posts which clearly explain Church teaching in this area include 1ke, manualman, the aforementioned em, rach 620, gardenswithkids, and bookcat, again among many others, so if you trying to get a sense of Catholic thought, you could always look up the posting histories and find lots of good stuff.
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Em_in_FL
Guest
I’m not sure if there is something that explicitly describes what you’re looking for, but my recommendation is to get a copy of the Catechism. That would be a great reference for you to look up the teachings and the reasons/backgrounds for them.I’m seeing that right now… LOL
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kdragonfly
Guest
This is an awesome post. Thanks for taking the time to post this.
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catharina
Guest
Agreed.
Profoundly impressive.
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CountrySinger
Guest
I’m the youngest of three, and my dad would tell me that he drove my mom to get an abortion when she was pregnant with me, but she refused. She came to regret that decision. They have told me many times.
So even smallish families can have unwanted children. I was a “surprise”. Even though my mom came to love me, she still regretted it.
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kdragonfly
Guest
I will do that!
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kdragonfly
Guest
OMG I’m so sorry they said those horrible things to you! hugsI’m the youngest of three, and my dad would tell me that he drove my mom to get an abortion when she was pregnant with me, but she refused. She came to regret that decision. They have told me many times.
So even smallish families can have unwanted children. I was a “surprise”. Even though my mom came to love me, she still regretted it.
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catharina
Guest
Horrible.I’m the youngest of three, and my dad would tell me that he drove my mom to get an abortion when she was pregnant with me, but she refused. She came to regret that decision. They have told me many times.
So even smallish families can have unwanted children. I was a “surprise”. Even though my mom came to love me, she still regretted it.
My deepest sympathy.
PS - any couple can decide a baby is unwanted.
It happens every day in this nation, over and over again.
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kdragonfly
Guest
Oh and once in the heat of an argument, my mom informed me that she could have had an abortion. Thanks? :bigyikes: I have forgiven her since, but boy was it hurtful. So I totally get where you’re coming from.
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CountrySinger
Guest
And that is why I don’t want to have children before I’m ready. I could see with my firecracker temper, I would just scream and scream at a baby if they wouldn’t be quiet. I only see bad parents, so it seems like a fruitless pursuit.
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catharina
Guest
Totally horrible -and she meant it to hurt you.
Shame on her. Kudos for you for forgiving.
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kdragonfly
Guest
You have spoken my fears aloud. I’m TERRIFIED of becoming a parent like my mom. And she was like that because she had a very abusive parent. I do not want to continue the cycle of abuse! I suppose I should trust in God on this one. I’m glad we are all talking about this stuff and getting it out in the open because maybe then healing and understanding can take place.
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