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wabrams
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Thanks. So the next question is where in the Bible and/or CCC does it say that it’s prohibative to use artificial birth control?
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OhioBob
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Your argument appears to be with the Catechism and the teaching of the Church, not with Vincent. He’s only the messenger.
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mercygate
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Ah, Scout. Do yourself a favor and REALLY look into this. It is hard for anybody in our culture to understand this profound teaching. The Catholic position requires what amounts to a contemplative experience of creation in order to understand the beauty of the teaching. I would recommend reading JP II’s Theology of the Body – but only if you’re kind of brainy, because it is definitely NOT a speed read and (frankly) it is not well translated. This is a monumental treatment of sexuality as a function of human dignity in the deepest context of the divine order of creation.
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OhioBob
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Sorry, I shortened the previous post for clarity. The rest of Section 2370 addresses your question:
From CCC 2370 "Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Thus the innate LANGUAGE that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory LANGUAGE, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160"
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TarAshly
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first off VINCENT what you said was a little too flowery for me. i dont know a lot about the churchs teachings on this so you may have to dumb it down a bit for me. im a new Catholic, so im still learning. and i do intend on trying it. i have a medical situation that i have to get alternative treatment for first until i can stop the pill. while thats going on i am going to study NFP but i wont lie and say im not gonna use the pill while im learning it. my fiance and i are opening a business and i want to finish school before we have kids. then we hope to be blessed with many lovely little ones. my second question is why does it all have to be so clinical, can a man and wife not make love just for the sake of making love and being together? why does fertility have to be the most important part of it. i know im gonna get eaten alive for this one, but i do have a hard time understanding how people who have never experianced married love (priests etc…) to explain and dictate its importance. thats why we chose to be married by and counceled by a deacon. one whos been married for 46 years. and a lovely couple for our sponsor couple. I MEAN NO OFFENSE its just a question in my mind.
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wabrams
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Well, my point of view is that if neither NFP nor Artificial Birth Control is 100% effective in preventing a pregnancy, then were is the sin? Both forms cut down on the chances of pregnancy, so in a sense they are the same. So, anytime you have sex and ejaculate inside a woman, there will always be a chance. Just my opinion.
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Scout
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I don’t have a problem with the Catechism or the teachings of the Church. I just don’t think sex’s only purpose is for procreation. No where does the Church teach that. Is it one of the purposes, yes. It’s just not the ONLY purpose.
Scout :tiphat:
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OhioBob
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There are a bunch of NFP threads that speak to your question. My own opinion, having used NFP, is that the difference is that with NFP there is no barrier or restriction placed between husband and wife. There may be a decision made to not have sex during certain periods in order to reduce the chance of pregnancy for good reason, each act of intimacy is completely open to the possibility that God will bless that act with a child. It may be a lower possibility, but it is still possible.
With artificial contraception, the spouses make the conscious choice to place an obstacle to God through the use of the contraceptive method. The name itself literally means “opposed to conception”.
I agree that it takes a while to reflect upon and understand the concept behind the Church’s teaching. It took the wife and I a while, and it took me longer to see the light than it took her.
But I think that there is an obvious difference if you truly reflect upon it and let God speak to your heart.
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OhioBob
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Sorry to post all these CCC quotes, but I’m on a roll…
From the CCC **2363 **The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life. These two meanings or values of marriage cannot be separated without altering the couple’s spiritual life and compromising the goods of marriage and the future of the family.
The conjugal love of man and woman thus stands under the twofold obligation of fidelity and fecundity.
[Conjugal fidelity](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow()
**[2364](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow() **The married couple forms "the intimate partnership of life and love established by the Creator and governed by his laws; it is rooted in the conjugal covenant, that is, in their irrevocable personal consent."147 Both give themselves definitively and totally to one another. They are no longer two; from now on they form one flesh. The covenant they freely contracted imposes on the spouses the obligation to preserve it as unique and indissoluble.148 "What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."149
[2365](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow() Fidelity expresses constancy in keeping one’s given word. God is faithful. The Sacrament of Matrimony enables man and woman to enter into Christ’s fidelity for his Church. Through conjugal chastity, they bear witness to this mystery before the world.St. John Chrysostom suggests that young husbands should say to their wives: I have taken you in my arms, and I love you, and I prefer you to my life itself. For the present life is nothing, and my most ardent dream is to spend it with you in such a way that we may be assured of not being separated in the life reserved for us. . . . I place your love above all things, and nothing would be more bitter or painful to me than to be of a different mind than you.150
[The fecundity of marriage](http://javascript:OpenPopupWindow()
**2****366 **Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 "This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."153
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wabrams
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I have truly thought on this and what I see is that there isn’t much difference. Even if you are using Artificial Birth Control, you still can become pregnant. When you have sex during the less fertile times of the month w/ NFP, you are still putting a restriction on things; you are picking a less riskier time of the month. A spade is a spade.
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CatholicMatthew
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It still is supposed to be tied to the act of intercourse (pre or post completion)
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OhioBob
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I’ve been where you are and my counsel would be to think about it some more.
There is a difference between taking a direct action to erect a barrier to life between spouses and merely deciding to abstain from sex at a particular moment.
If you can’t see that, I respectfully suggest that you are not looking hard enough. I know that for a long time, I wasn’t looking very hard either.
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CatholicMatthew
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The current Pope in 1952 (Love and Responsibility — a great read) states that one of the greatest sins of man is not SLOWING down and learning how their partners body works and moving at their pace and bringing them to ________. In other words guys need to work with. Again, see my above post.
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TarAshly
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im still confused. judging from you poster name, i assume your a man. if im correct let me just say that its very hard for a man to know how a womans body works. it is physically impossible for most women to reach orgasm internally, the G spot is a myth not a part of MOST female anatomy. no matter how hard a man tries for most women its just not gonna work. so my question is is it a sin to “satisfy” a woman externally if the act is tied to intercourse? and is it a sin for a man and wife to engage in other sexual acts not tied to intercourse?
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wabrams
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I respect what you are saying and your beliefs on the matter, but to me it’s the same thing. But, I can agree to disagree with you and hopefully vice versa. BTW, thanks for the postings on the CCC. My girlfriend and I are getting engaged over Thanksgiving and she’s Catholic, so I’m trying to learn as much as possible.
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CatholicMatthew
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As a Catholic you should embrace it. That is the best way of understanding it.
Since you are not married this will affect you ability to learn NFP but you do not have to worry about the abortifacent quality of chemical birth control. BTW, you are always learning about NFP if you are using it correctly (my humble opinion as a NFP teacher).
Contact CCL, take their class and work with them. Get an NFP only doctor. Contact the Paul VI institute. Your condition may not be as dire as your current doc leads you to believe or their may be simple solutions. A good book is Fertility, Cycles and Nutrition by Marilyn Shannon.
That is all good, just use licit means.
Fertility, per se, is not the most important part but it is the interference in the design of the act when it is undertaken. It is always for the sake of love of spouse (true love–Christ’s love) that the marital embrace should be undertaken. The determining factor isn’t fertility or infertility in the licitness of the act but it is what we do to it. The reason it is so clinical is that we have put so much “medicine” into redefining the act. (again the last part is my opinion.
You really need to read the Theology of the Body or get Christopher West’s Crash Course on the same to get an idea of this. As a married man who spent two years in the seminary considering priestly celibacy I truly admire the love that celibates exhibit and the profound understanding for the beauty of the Church teaching on married sexuality. They do experience married love with Christ as the Bridegroom of the Church. They sacrifice much just as a husband should and suffer much as a husband should for their spouse (Ephesians 5)
I have no problem with your premarital counseling being with a permanent deacon. I would however want to make sure that he is faithful to the Church teaching on marital sexuality and practiced it in his own marriage. Otherwise, his view is probably a little skewed.
Under the Mercy,
Matthew
PS feel free to PM or email me to learn more or discuss your situation.
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OhioBob
Guest
According to the Catechism and the teaching of the Church, no, it is not a sin, it is a lovely bonus of marital love.
According to the Catechism and the teaching of the Church, yup, it’s a sin.
Unfortunately, we don’t make the rules. :tiphat:
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CatholicMatthew
Guest
Yes, I am a man. A married man with a wife. WIthin the realm of modesty my wife has only one way of achieving orgasm that is very specific in terms of relative orientation (sorry for the technical but modesty and prudence rule) of each other during the marital embrace. I specifically function with that in mind. I also continue to grow and learn as her mood changes and she reacts differently in different situations and times.
We do experiment and have found more ways that may get her their.
If i fail in intercourse it is licit for me to work to bring her to orgasm. We can engage in sexual acts not directly tied but should not tempt the other to masturbate and always looking forward to the act.
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TarAshly
Guest
hes the most faithful man i know. he told us he practiced NFP and is helping me contact the right people to learn it and get off of the pill. he is truly a Godsend of a man. i’ve known him for a very long time and truly truly admire his love for the church. he respects everyones opinions and understands that its going to take some time for me to learn and accept the church’s teachings as i was raised a southern baptist. hes patient with me, and with my personality thats what it takes. im hard headed as anything! 
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OhioBob
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Fair enough. I will pray that with time you will begin to see the difference. I don’t know if you plan to learn about Catholicism or join the church, but if you go through RCIA it might provide some additional information and opportunities for reflection.
The Catechism isn’t exactly an easy read, but it is worth reading. There are some books that present the CCC in a bit easier to digest form such as Peter Kreeft’s Catholic Christianity. I would highly recommend it as part of your marriage preparation. Even if you are not Catholic and don’t plan to be right now, it will help to understand your fiance’s faith and will demonstrate your support for her.
By the way, congrats on your soon-to-be engagement. Next May is 20 years for me. Wouldn’t change a thing.
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