Bishop announces investigation of Father Pavone

[commenter]

… The shock factor associated around this video seems to stem from its religious context…
I hope Fr Pavone does not become to disheartened by this furore…

The “shock value” and “furor” is exactly what Fr. Pavone was aiming for.

500 years ago if a priest wanted to oppose the bishops, he would post 95 theses on the church door. Today they go on Youtube. Many Catholics who give money and attention to Fr. Pavone’s organization (wrongly) assume that with a name like “Priests for Life” it is somehow under the supervision of the Catholic Church.

The media loves it when any priest opposes the hierarchy. They are happy to give free media coverage. Keep in mind there are many other prolife organizations that have activities all the time, but are ignored by the media because they aren’t “edgy” - or disobedient - enough. Priests for Life competes not with Planned Parenthood but with other prolife ministries for money and attention. It pulls money and attention away from prolife ministries that actually are part of the Catholic Church.

One reason the proabortion movement does so well among Catholics is that there is an anti-religious authority movement sweeping the West. When any priest, nun, or layperson tries to usurp the bishop, nothing good comes of it. It encourages more people to dissent from the bishops and pope, on other things. Like at Martin Luther’s church door.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

How, exactly, is an aborted fetus “against the dignity of human life” and a “desecration of the altar”?

How about we start with the fact that it is the body of a murdered human being and not a “prop”.

And to the person who compared this to Fr. Myke Judge & 9/11- apples to oranges.
Fr. Myke was carried by his own men, to his Church, and laid at the foot of the altar as a sign of respect and to bring him “home” in the midst of one of the most tragic days in American history. To compare the two is, disturbing, to say the least.

 

[1neophyte]

How, exactly, is an aborted fetus “against the dignity of human life” and a “desecration of the altar”? What is against the dignity of human life is the abortion, not the mangled body that remains. Remember the Lord’s example of those disciples who ate the grains of wheat on the Sabbath. It is necessary to observe rules, but the rules were made for men, not men for the rules. I see Father Pavone’s action as an anguished cry of “Look what they have done to the body of Your most innocent, Lord. Make not this suffering be in vain”. That is a far cry from desecrating the altar. To say that it is seems a form of scrupulosity, in my admittedly humble opinion.

Your opinion, while humble, is exactly correct. Thank you for continuing to speak up. Usually I give up by this point when it’s clear that the majority want to stubbornly persist in their confusion.

 

[1neophyte]

How about we start with the fact that it is the body of a murdered human being and not a “prop”.

And to the person who compared this to Fr. Myke Judge & 9/11- apples to oranges.
Fr. Myke was carried by his own men, to his Church, and laid at the foot of the altar as a sign of respect and to bring him “home” in the midst of one of the most tragic days in American history. To compare the two is, disturbing, to say the least.

What’s disturbing is your continued failure to understand anything. In a murder trial, if it is possible, images of the victim’s body are admitted as evidence and shown to the jury. This is not for shock value; it is to present the truth into the record. There is no trial to present such evidence when an unborn baby is murdered. To NOT understand the connection between the “most tragic day” of 9/11 and EVERY abortion that occurs is absolutely shameful. At least when people discuss 9/11, there is a general consensus that only an absolute maniac would find the event acceptable. There is no such consensus about abortion. This is why Fr. Pavone is a prophet, and any criticism of him by a Catholic is an embarrassment.

 

[commenter]

…This is why Fr. Pavone is a prophet, and any criticism of him by a Catholic is an embarrassment.

The anti-Catholic, pro abortion media gives a great deal of free coverage to his activities to challenge the bishops.

Hmm…

 

[josh987654321]

.

I want the horrors of this practice of abortion to be shown so that people will wake up, how anyone could support a pro-abortion candidate like Clinton, how any Catholic could is absolutely beyond me.

That being said, I felt the child was treated like a prop in a science class, I even assumed it was fake at first because of this.

Like I said, If one wanted to show the horrors of what Nazi Germany did, they would take pictures of the dead bodies behind the prison fences of Auschwitz prison camp, but they wouldn’t take one of those dead bodies, place them in a Church, let alone on the Altar, and then take the picture with the priest in the background.

I believe he was trying to do good, but I believe he has crossed the line with this and it will end up being counterproductive.

I hope this has helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[1neophyte]

The anti-Catholic, pro abortion media gives a great deal of free coverage to his activities to challenge the bishops.

Hmm…

It’s too bad the bishops don’t take a page from Donald Trump in their response and actually stand for something other than trying to not offend anyone.

 

[1neophyte]

I hope this has helped

It hasn’t, sorry.

 

[phil19034]

What would have been reverent to this baby because he is a victim and was alive would have been to be cleaned, dressed in a garment, and placed in a coffin. He should have been given a name, and a funeral mass should have been said. Those would have been works of mercy to this baby, and given him dignity as a human being.

This would have been far more effective and would have been been a mercyful act.

Father meant to do good, but I fear this will backfire. Simply cleanin the baby, clothing the baby, performing a funeral mass (as in the quote above), would have been a far more powerful statement. Maybe even using a in a glass coffin, like some of the saints.

 

[therese1998]

Your opinion, while humble, is exactly correct. Thank you for continuing to speak up.

Thank you for your kind words! And for reading my post

The “shock value” and “furor” is exactly what Fr. Pavone was aiming for.

And how is it that you are able to accurately discern Father Pavone’s motives? If, indeed, you can show definitively that Father Pavone acted from a place of pride or desperation to stay at the “top of the game” for shock value, then I would agree that he had gone too far. In the absence of that proof and considering all I have seen, heard and read from him, I am more inclined to believe he did this as an act of extreme desolation and horror at the unending holocaust of not only fully human lives, but the most innocent of human lives among us.

In a murder trial, if it is possible, images of the victim’s body are admitted as evidence and shown to the jury. This is not for shock value; it is to present the truth into the record.

And this is what I believe Father Pavone did in this instance, thereby offending man but not God.

And, incidentally, I think that it is an offense against charity to ascribe the worst possible motives to someone’s actions, particularly when he has made no statement and no investigation has been completed.

 

[Paganus]

And this is what I believe Father Pavone did in this instance, thereby offending man but not God.

I agree. But I personally was not any more offended than I am by seeing a life-sized representation of the bloody corpse of a savagely wounded victim of crucifixion at the altar.

 

[commenter]

And how is it that you are able to accurately discern Father Pavone’s motives? If, indeed, you can show definitively that Father Pavone acted from a place of pride or desperation to stay at the “top of the game” for shock value, then I would agree that he had gone too far. In the absence of that proof and considering all I have seen, heard and read from him,** I am more inclined to believe he did this as an act of extreme desolation and horror… **

And, incidentally, I think that it is an offense against charity to ascribe the worst possible motives to someone’s actions, particularly when he has made no statement and no investigation has been completed.

I think the part I bolded helps illustrate one reason why priests need a close relationship with their bishop for effective ministry, and what may happen in its absence.

We have to be careful to act, and post, in charity to priests **and **to bishops. The bolded part is repeatedly forgotten.

Do ****you **** know the situation in the diocese of Amarillo and archdiocese of NY, both public and confidential? Do you know what the several bishops who Fr. Pavone has battled with - his own ordinaries to who he is to be obedient - have done on prolife?

Just because Clinton was defeated does not mean the “divide and conquer” plan has been scrapped by the government and the media. The enemies of the Church don’t care if priests and laity oppose bishops because they are too liberal, or too conservative, as long as they oppose bishops. This is not a judgement on Fr. Pavone, but the enemies of the Church.

I’m not saying Fr. Pavone likes the secular media. But they obviously like him.

 

[gracepoole]

Like I said, If one wanted to show the horrors of what Nazi Germany did, they would take pictures of the dead bodies behind the prison fences of Auschwitz prison camp, but they wouldn’t take one of those dead bodies, place them in a Church, let alone on the Altar, and then take the picture with the priest in the background.

Speaking as someone who teaches about the horrors of the Holocaust, photos of corpses aren’t pedagogically useful most of the time. People turn away from such images – they don’t engage with them and then become changed. I have serious reservations about using images of aborted fetuses in this way, as well (especially given that at times, those who’ve experienced miscarriages see them and are further distanced from the pro-life movement because of the pain that’s resurrected for them).

But back to this action. Fr. Pavone’s bishop has said, “We believe that no one who is pro-life can exploit a human body for any reason, especially the body of a fetus.”

And of course, this was a violation of Canon Law: “An altar, whether fixed or movable, is to be reserved for divine worship alone, to the exclusion of any secular usage.”

 

[brian_custer]

discern Father Pavone’s motives?

in my opinion father pavone’s motives are 100% PRO LIFE

this is what the Holy Spirit inspired him to do

so he did it

it was all redacted anyway lily livers

 

[Don_Ruggero]

It’s too bad the bishops don’t take a page from Donald Trump in their response and actually stand for something other than trying to not offend anyone.

What?

This is nothing short of intolerable.

The stance of the bishops of the United States is quite beautifully articulated in Forming Consciences for Faithful Citisenship

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

The statement of the moderator of this forum says in very well:

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has published its guidelines on voting and being politically active, which is called Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. It instructs Catholics on what to do in many situations. You can view an online version of it, by visiting this link.

Criticisms of the bishops of the United States by those in the United States should be utterly and absolutely intolerable.

 

[1neophyte]

What?

This is nothing short of intolerable.

The stance of the bishops of the United States is quite beautifully articulated in Forming Consciences for Faithful Citisenship

usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf

The statement of the moderator of this forum says in very well:

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has published its guidelines on voting and being politically active, which is called Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. It instructs Catholics on what to do in many situations. You can view an online version of it, by visiting this link.

Criticisms of the bishops of the United States by those in the United States should be utterly and absolutely intolerable.

More or less intolerable than abortion? More or less intolerable than the lackadaisical reaction it evokes today?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This is why Fr. Pavone is a prophet, and any criticism of him by a Catholic is an embarrassment.

The judgments and opinions of the laity are of no matter. This priest is now under an investigation by his bishop, to whom he has promised obedience.

Frankly, I am in wonderment that ANY discussion of this is tolerated on the Catholic Answers Forum now that this priest’s bishop has intervened to conduct a canonical inquiry in his regard and to arrive at a judgement.

Given the hierarchical nature of the Church, the presumption would favour His Excellency, the Bishop.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I would not call that an official statement from the Archdiocese of NY. That person is a staff member of the Archdiocese, but his columns appear to reflect his own opinions. Those opinions are likely not inconsistent with the Archdiocese position, but are not an official statement. If there was one, it would come from the Cardinal, chancellor, or perhaps someone from the office of liturgy, not from this person’s office. Since his bishop is in Texas, not NY, it is unlikely the NY Archdiocese has any official position, unless something is known to happen in a NY church.

Wherever Father is incardinated, Priests for Life – unless this is a purely personal statement from him that does not in any way implicate Priests for Life – exists as an entity that is subject to the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of New York and all associated with the organisation should be in complete and faithful submission to the Cardinal Archbishop.

 

[1neophyte]

The judgments and opinions of the laity are of no matter. This priest is now under an investigation by his bishop, to whom he has promised obedience.

Frankly, I am in wonderment that ANY discussion of this is tolerated on the Catholic Answers Forum now that this priest’s bishop has intervened to conduct a canonical inquiry in his regard and to arrive at a judgement.

Given the hierarchical nature of the Church, the presumption would favour His Excellency, the Bishop.

I completely understand why you don’t want to answer my question, but your wonderment is certainly grossly misplaced.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

More or less intolerable than abortion? More or less intolerable than the lackadaisical reaction it evokes today?

I will leave that to the moderator of this forum to answer, regarding the deference that is to be given to the American bishops by those who are their canonical subjects.