Bishop asks parishioners to stand?

[Jen95]

We've gotten it backwards since Vatican II and truly obscured the Communion Procession by eliminating altar railings and the priest walking back and forth to bring Christ in procession to them, Christ coming to them! This is tied into that other post-Vatican II corruption that we ourselves make the liturgy, we do the liturgy but in fact the Liturgy is God's work to save us! Why were we duped by such rubbish that was taught as though it was truth, a newly revealed, post-Vatican II truth? We were led down the garden path to the slaughter in these idiotic theological "spirit of Vatican II" corruptions.
The light bulb moment that the Latin Rite has a Communion Procession as the Eastern Rite understands it came to me when I recalled as a child receiving Holy Communion at the altar railing. The priest is the one processing–thatis the Communion Procession! Duh! But liturgical theologians told us, our coming forward to receive Holy Communion was the Communion Procession. It is a procession of course, but not the Communion Procession, the Priest is doing the Communion Procession and acting in Persona Christi in doing so! We’ve hidden that reality with the modern manner of distributing Holy Communion on the run, standing and in the hand!

THE HOLY COMMUNION PROCESSION--IT ISN'T WHAT WE WERE TAUGHT AS POST-VATICAN II CATHOLICS, IT ISN'T THE FAITHFUL PROCESSING TO RECEIVE CHRIST, IT IS THE PROCESSION OF THE CELEBRANT TO DISTRIBUTE THE CONSECRATED OFFERINGS! THIS IS A LIGHT BULB MOMENT F

In my previous post on the Eastern Rite's Divine Liturgy and its corresponding Orthodox counterpart, the Jesuit priest, Fr. Taft writes the ...

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[Dovekin]

I don’t think anyone is talking about how we receive… just what we do afterwards.

We are talking about how we, the body of Christ, receive the body of Christ that makes us into his body. I am not talking about how each of us receives, but how we receive.

What some bishops have decided, yes?

No this is a decision of the bishops conference. Some bishops interpret it differently, but the conference chose standing “from the oratre frates to the end of mass” except during the Eucharistic prayer and “after the Agnus Dei” if the individual bishop chooses.

For me this is problem solved. Next time I am in a church we I’m asked to stand after Communion, I’m just moving to the last pew

I actually thought about suggesting that to you yesterday, but did not. It is one of the problems with this teaching.

 

[Jen95]

Funny, “Communion Procession” isn’t even a thing in the old Catholic Encyclopedia. So, in the early 20th century, it didn’t exist, and now, it’s a special special corporate holy moment that we all have to observe together.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[phil19034]

If that is the case, then why not kneel for all of the prayers?

Because after communion we are praying in adoration. All of the missals provide provide after communion prayers. Act of Faith, Act of Charity, St. Thomas Aquinas prayer, etc.

The singing during communion is for the people who are not silently praying in preparation or in Thanksgiving.

Some people spend on minute in prayer after Communion, some don’t silently pray at all, and others sit up front and silently pray in adoration the entire time until the Post Communion prayers.

For 2 millenia, the Church has said that we should all be kneeling when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed. Well, during Communion, the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

People wonder why the believe in the Real Presence is lacking, yet don’t understand why it’s wrong for everyone in the Nave to be standing when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for Communion.

Making people stand at this time is WRONG. I don’t care who says it, they are wrong.

The short video I posed above from Cardinal Arinze explains this well

Bishop asks parishioners to stand? Liturgy and Sacraments

When I attend a parish like that, I kneel anyway. Per Cardinal Arinze, no bishop or priest has the right to force someone to stand after communion, just like no bishop or priest has the right to force someone to kneel. [Kneeling, Kneelers, Altar Rails, and Cardinal Arinze]

 

[RyanBlack]

People wonder why the believe in the Real Presence is lacking, yet don’t understand why it’s wrong for everyone in the Nave to be standing when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed for Communion.

Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not opposed to people kneeling in adoration, and I’m perplexed as to why bishops in the Latin rite would seek to prevent people from doing so. What I take issue with is the idea that standing for prayer is objectively inferior to kneeling, or somehow incompatible with adoration of God. I doubt you will find large numbers of Eastern Orthodox or Byzantine Catholics who deny the Real Presence, and we do not kneel in adoration. We stand for prayer and worship, including throughout the distribution of Holy Communion.

 

[RyanBlack]

For 2 millenia, the Church has said that we should all be kneeling when the Blessed Sacrament is exposed.

For a very long time, and specific only to the West, yes, but for 2 millenia, no.

 

[Jen7]

I doubt you will find large numbers of Eastern Orthodox or Byzantine Catholics who deny the Real Presence, and we do not kneel in adoration. We stand for prayer and worship, including throughout the distribution of Holy Communion.

But that’s your tradition. It feels reverent to everyone. In the Latin Rite that’s not our tradition. It doesn’t feel more reverent. Western culture is disintegrating & soing away with kneeling just feels like another chunk of that down the drain. How would you feel if you were told to kneel at your Eastern Rite Divine Liturgy? No orans while standing after Communion. Hands folded like Latin Rite nuns and you kneel. Yuck. Well that’s how I feel about standing. It means “more casual” to me. It is not my cultural position of adoration. Why take it away at one of the most intimate moments of the Mass.

Incidentally, Christ could just appear to us as a collective group at Mass and preach the homily or something. He doesn’t. He comes to each of us individually. HE takes the “communal” event and makes it individual and personal. Why can’t I pray to Him personally (on my knees if I want) after this happens?? If the entire Mass was supposed to 100% in-common, personal Communion should happen after Mass and we can just communially have adoration of the Blessed Sacrament as a GROUP during Mass.

 

[Jen7]

What I take issue with is the idea that standing for prayer is objectively inferior to kneeling, or somehiw incompatible with adoration of God.

Alrighty then, let’s amend the statement to say “in the Latin Rite.”

 

[RyanBlack]

But that’s your tradition. It feels reverent to everyone. In the Latin Rite that’s not our tradition.

Please look at my entire post. I stated that I’m not opposed to people kneeling in adoration in the Latin Rite, and that I’m perplexed as to why your bishops would seek to prevent you from doing so. My point is that the significance of these gestures is culturally and regionally conditioned.

 

[Jen7]

Please look at my entire post. I stated that I’m not opposed to people kneeling in adoration in the Latin Rite, and that I’m perplexed as to why your bishops would seek to prevent you from doing so. My point is that the significance of these gestures is culturally and regionally conditioned.

100% agree! That’s why if this standing business becomes the norm in my diocese I’d probably join an Eastern Rite. I’m comfortable standing where that’s the cultural symbol of profound reverence. But not where it’s the cultural symbol of less reverence.

 

[pnewton]

If you think these things go against the GIRM, you should show me with some quotes.

I noticed twice you have quoted the GIRM, and twice someone has said you were wrong. Yet not once did anyone actually quote the GIRM to show this, including when this document was said to contradict you.

My sympathies lie with @Jen7. I too do not like the idea of being overly regimented in Mass beyond what is necessary. If my bishop did this, I would likely do as Cardinal Arinze suggested and report it to the nuncio so they could hash it out with the bishop. Yet in the meantime, I think following the bishop is the right thing to do.

On the other hand, as I said, I do understand why a bishop might want to do this. Kneeling is a sign of humility before God. Ironically, there have been a lot of times here when kneeling comes across, at least for some, as a source of pride. It just seems to me that those who do this are far more vocal about the practice than the normative Catholic who makes up the large majority seen standing. I would suggest that while humility before God is essential, it is equally essential that we strive to imitate Jesus, who was willing to empty himself and take on the most lowly form of man. In other words, taking on the simplicity of unifying with our fellow man out of the humility Christ demonstrated is the best way to show humility before God.

For the one who does not like to do this, then such humility to do it anyway may be what the bishop is trying to teach.

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Other Catholics: A Short Guide to the Eastern Catholic Churches - Crisis Magazine

 

[phil19034]

The Other Catholics: A Short Guide to the Eastern Catholic Churches

I’m sorry, but this is irrelevant. A Latin Catholic is not an Eastern Catholic.

For example: the Latin Church uses unleavened bread, while some of the Eastern Catholic Churches use leavened bread.

We don’t mix rites. In the West, we kneel in adoration. In the East, they stand. Different culture, different rites.

If I’m in a Byzantine Catholic Church, I’m going to cross myself like they do, I’m going to stand when they do, I’m going to take communion from a spoon like they do, etc.

However, I’m NOT going to use the Byzantine way of crossing myself when I return to the Latin church. I’m not going to beg Father to give communion from a spoon, and I’m not going to ask him to start using leavened bread.

I respect the Eastern Catholics for their rites and traditions. However, just like they don’t like Latinizations in their Church, I don’t want to see our Latin traditions replaced by Eastern traditions.

God Bless

 

[TheLittleLady]

A Catholic may fulfill their Sunday Obligation at any Rite, including the Eastern Rites.

 

[Dovekin]

I too do not like the idea of being overly regimented in Mass beyond what is necessary. If my bishop did this…

No one likes being regimented at Mass. Norms do not do that, so I do not understand why people are talking like that. I’ve confused the Jens, but one of them said they wished the bishops would make a choice so that it would be consistent. That is the only time any kind of regimentation has been suggested that I can remember.

I have already contributed too much to this discussion so I will try not to say any more.

 

[phil19034]

A Catholic may fulfill their Sunday Obligation at any Rite, including the Eastern Rites.

Yes, I totally know that.

That’s why I said if I was attending a Divine Liturgy, I WOULD cross myself the way they do, receive from the spoon, and stand when they stand.

But I would not expect to bring those traditions back with me to the Latin Church.

 

[TheLittleLady]

A poster earlier thought Byzantine Catholics were in schism

 

[pnewton]

No one likes being regimented at Mass. Norms do not do that, so I do not understand why people are talking like that.

That was Cardinal Arinze who said that we are not soldiers and should not be regimented like them. The norms do not do that, if by norms you mean universal norms. He objected to local norms not allowing proper expression of the faithful as they see best. The video I posted above is long, but it is an easy listen, as the man is just fun to listen to, and the format keeps it fresh and moving. It’s pretty good, if you find the time to put it on while you are doing something.

I understand when receiving communion, there is a practical reason for a norm. But in the pew, what one person does will not affect the person next to him.

 

[Titivillus]

tl; dr

If my parish ever promulgated such posture, I could be obedient.

But I would also expect (and if necessary, agitate for) enforcement of Sacred Silence before and after Mass, and for a period following the reposition of the Blessed Sacrament, when we’re all done standing.

 

[Phemie]

The US bishops were pretty clear on this. There is supposed to be a common Communion posture. Just because some people choose to be disobedient doesn’t change the norm, or the reason for the norm.

Everybody doing what they want at and after Communion destroys the whole point of being in…communion with each other.

Kneeling is often done by those who think that posture is somehow superior to standing. It isn’t. The superior posture is the normative one: standing.

Let’s be clear that the GIRM for the US allows both standing and kneeling at Communion, as well as both receiving in the hand and on the tongue.

1. The Priest then takes the paten or ciborium and approaches the communicants, who usually come up in procession.

It is not permitted for the faithful to take the consecrated Bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them on from one to another among themselves. The norm established for the Dioceses of the United States of America is that Holy Communion is to be received standing, unless an individual member of the faithful wishes to receive Communion while kneeling (Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, Instruction, Redemptionis Sacramentum, March 25, 2004, no. 91).

When receiving Holy Communion, the communicant bows his or her head before the Sacrament as a gesture of reverence and receives the Body of the Lord from the minister. The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant. When Holy Communion is received under both kinds, the sign of reverence is also made before receiving the Precious Blood.