Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’

[ProVobis]

The fragility of any item is not a universal law. Mass without gravity is an inherent impossibility. Bread that does not leave crumbs in a specific situaion is neither an impossibility or a universal law of physics.

pn, methinks you insult those who have studied and worked particle physics. I have (coulter counter experiments) and I can give you a name of a priest who has a masters in physics who has instructed me on the subject, you could say. If he had never mentioned excommunication because of tossing away fragments, I probably would have never thought twice about it.

You also insult those who have moved on past the seen-and-unseen theology which used to be part of the creed but is no longer.

Substance is substance and risk is risk but if you want to continue to deny that with some “I can’t see with my eyes” lines, then I can’t help you. One doesn’t see pollen in the air either but if you’re allergic, you know it’s there.

 

[ProVobis]

This term has me confused. I thought there different rites in different languages long before Vatican II. Also, as Latin was not the original language of the Church, inculturation had to extend to the first century. Even some of our holidays were adapted to the culture of the people.

Latin, as codified by Cicero et al, was the language of administration, Church documents, Church law, Church doctrine, and the Western Vulgate and liturgy, the latter since the 3rd or 4th century. Greeks were writing in Latin as well. What more do you need to have a unified language?

Besides I thought we all celebrated St. Patrick’s Day and the like.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well unless this dead horse resurrects because the Church decides to remove the indult of receiving in the hand, I’ll continue to receive in the hand for it’s how I feel called to receive.

There’s really nothing more that can be said which hasn’t been said already.

Centered in Christ
Jim

 

[larsont7]

Well unless this dead horse resurrects because the Church decides to remove the indult of receiving in the hand, I’ll continue to receive in the hand for it’s how I feel called to receive.

There’s really nothing more that can be said which hasn’t been said already.

Centered in Christ
Jim

Well, I hope you at least give Bishop Schneider’s book a chance, entitled Dominus Est. Only $7.20 on Amazon and takes just an hour or two to read. Not that it will change your mind on the subject, but it should give you an even deeper love for the Holy Eucharist.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, I hope you at least give Bishop Schneider’s book a chance, entitled Dominus Est. Only $7.20 on Amazon and takes just an hour or two to read. Not that it will change your mind on the subject, but it should give you an even deeper love for the Holy Eucharist.

Sounds good, in fact, I may buy a copy, but the way I see it, if one (and I’m not necessarily talking about CiTH or any individual here) is so stuck on asserting his rights, he’ll be digging in his heels further and he’s not going to let up on them, no matter what. The spiritual value will be on some backburner.

 

[glendab]

Well, you did as instructed and you obeyed the stricter rules. Am I missing something?

Maybe it is time for another tongue/hand kneeling/standing thrash it out thread.

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Drolla.

All host crumble, please watch the first few minutes of this video demonstration:
youtube.com/watch?v=BiUqDa_Gzj0
This is the reason the early Church was so careful in their reception of communion in the hand and eventually evolved into the more perfect method of the priest placing it directly on the tongue of the communicant.

I LOVE the vidoes. Thanks for sharing.

Oh Jesus, You poor little Crumb of a Guy! God help them with their unbelief.

(Can you tell I receive on the tongue?)

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello PNewton.

Did he? It’s not in the article, at least worded like that or in any other way I could find. Most of what the AB said was in the future tense, especially the dire things. Maybe he will be shown to be right. I would hope that none are hoping for disaster.

What does it say? Zeal for your house shall consume me. That’s what it says and that is what he is living. Zeal. The Living Flame of God’s Love.

Glenda

 

[pnewton]

Hello PNewton.

What does it say? Zeal for your house shall consume me. That’s what it says and that is what he is living. Zeal. The Living Flame of God’s Love.

Zeal is a good thing for the house of God. However, I do not thing zeal is an objective virtue, like charity and hope. Saul was quite zealous before his conversion and used this as an example of the limitation of zeal.

I believe we are all here fairly zealous, and mostly for the right things.

 

[pnewton]

Latin, as codified by Cicero et al, was the language of administration, Church documents, Church law, Church doctrine, and the Western Vulgate and liturgy, the latter since the 3rd or 4th century.

Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I thought you had said the whole church had a common liturgical language.

pn, methinks you insult those who have studied and worked particle physics.

I have never questioned particle physics, though I note that the movement of molecules and loss on a microscopic level occur regardless of how we receive. I intended to insult no one. I would never think of imposing my own preferences on others as being better and fully appreciate all the thought people put into this issue for their own personal edification. As for as my training, I look too look to the Church and do what I see as best.
I only ask for the same consideration that all here wish for themselves. I read back through my posts. I honestly can see even the slightest hint of insult that I have given. If I did, then please excuse my obtuseness.

 

[pnewton]

Maybe it is time for another tongue/hand kneeling/standing thrash it out thread.

Glenda

I think we would be better served by meditation upon Philippians 2, perhaps some time in Adoration. These things tend to be polemic, here at least. I have never seen any issue at the parish level. People do things using the acceptable options that seem best for them.

For me, receiving in the hand is the more humbling posture. I am far from having arrived though. Maybe this will change some day. Let us say that maybe I am just not a very good Catholic in the understanding of receiving communion, or another to whom you debate is not. Even then, a recognition that we are all on a journey should temper the way we promote our preferences on disciplinary matters.

 

[glendab]

Hello Pnewton.

I think we would be better served by meditation upon Philippians 2, perhaps some time in Adoration. These things tend to be polemic, here at least. I have never seen any issue at the parish level. People do things using the acceptable options that seem best for them.

For me, receiving in the hand is the more humbling posture. I am far from having arrived though. Maybe this will change some day. Let us say that maybe I am just not a very good Catholic in the understanding of receiving communion, or another to whom you debate is not. Even then, a recognition that we are all on a journey should temper the way we promote our preferences on disciplinary matters.

When I first became a Catholic, I was taught to receive God in my hand and I did that because that is what they said to do and that is what everyone else I saw do, so I did it. I had no clue there were other options. I saw a spiritual meaning to receiving in the hand as if God were placing His hand in mine and we could walk together and other such stuff. It was kinda nice. Later on in my “journey,” I saw others receiving on the tongue and even bowing and kneeling to receive. I visited Churches that still had their altar rails up, and heard other Catholics tell me the reasons why and wherefore things changed. I had oldtimers tell me of how things were before everything changed and sometimes this was said tearfully. I kept and open mind and then realized God was asking me to choose which I thought was the right way for me. So I got honest and admitted that reception on the tongue seemed wiser as per crumbs or dirty hands or dropping the Eucharist and since it was the older time tested method and the hand thing was considered by some of those oldsters as novelty innovation, it might be better for me to receive on the tongue. So I practiced in front of a mirror and next morning at Mass that is exactly what I did. I bowed reverently and stuck my tongue out and I’ve never regretted it.

So, keep an open mind. The old ways in some ways may actually be what is best.

Glenda

 

[pnewton]

When I first became a Catholic, I was taught to receive God in my hand and I did that because that is what they said to do and that is what everyone else I saw do, so I did it. I had no clue there were other options. I saw a spiritual meaning to receiving in the hand as if God were placing His hand in mine and we could walk together and other such stuff. It was kinda nice.

Rest assured, my mind is open.

For me the issue is the posture of receiving. I am used to bowing my head and Church and it is uncomfortable for me to lift my head at such an important time. I did receive on the tongue when it was necessary. I had a child to carry. I always felt uncomfortably haughty. If the discipline changes, I will have to get over this. If I ever notice a problem with crumbs, I may have to get over this.

In any case, none of this has to do with the issue Bishop Athanasius addresses. There is no sense of disrespect for me, any lack of realization of the Real Presence, or any profanation to the Eucharist.

 

[Memaw]

I recently came across my pre-Vatican II, 1st Communion Photo from 1959, going through the gymnastics of receiving communion with my head back, and tongue sticking out as the nuns taught us.

Not my preferred way to “Take and Eat,” reverently as Christ instructed.

Jim

Poor baby! Gymnastics huh?? God Bless, Memaw

 

[ProVobis]

And to think in some cultures kids were taught to confess the smallest lies, disobedience to authority, cheating, sexual pleasure, sacrilege, etc., before going to communion, we have many adult converts, their teachers, and others to tell us the 2000-yr old Church was all wrong before Vatican II, these really aren’t mortal sins, and thus no need for confession before communion. Is this spirituality or flat out wimpiness?

 

[pnewton]

And to think in some cultures kids were taught to confess the smallest lies, disobedience to authority, cheating, sexual pleasure, sacrilege, etc., before going to communion, we have many adult converts, their teachers, and others to tell us the 2000-yr old Church was all wrong before Vatican II,…

I re-linked the original article for convenience.

catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/06/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-we-are-in-the-fourth-great-crisis-of-the-church/

It mentions nothing in regards to confession or the requirements of mortal sin. Therefore, it seems like this is an ad hominem complaint against Catholic converts. In addition, it is a rather dubious accusation. I know of no one that has said the Catholic Church was all wrong before Vatican II.

Do you think the Catholic Church would be better served by not having converts to the faith?

 

[glendab]

Hello PNewton.

Rest assured, my mind is open.

For me the issue is the posture of receiving. I am used to bowing my head and Church and it is uncomfortable for me to lift my head at such an important time. I did receive on the tongue when it was necessary. I had a child to carry. I always felt uncomfortably haughty. If the discipline changes, I will have to get over this. If I ever notice a problem with crumbs, I may have to get over this.

In any case, none of this has to do with the issue Bishop Athanasius addresses. There is no sense of disrespect for me, any lack of realization of the Real Presence, or any profanation to the Eucharist.

Sounds like you have examined your heart a little and found a pure intention that assists you in your reception and the events around that. You are comfortable with things as they are for you. That is good. But keep in mind the posture and hand vs. tongue stuff are matters of discipline and can change. The reception in the hand was an indult given for a length of time so as to prevent scandal among the faithful who had been introduced to the practice BEFORE the Church officially allowed the change. It was an innovation authored by persons* in the *Church but they weren’t authorized to act FOR the Church. Permission caught up with the practice, not the other way around. So, there may come a time when permission for reception in the hands will be withdrawn and you’ll need to make a choice to either comply in obedience or refuse and rebel.

Glenda

 

[pnewton]

So, there may come a time when permission for reception in the hands will be withdrawn and you’ll need to make a choice to either comply in obedience or refuse and rebel.

Glenda

I have stated many times that I always comply with such changes. One of my favorite quotes is, “Those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel.”

Now if someone can recognize the source of this quote without searching, I will give mega-nerd-kudos.

 

[jeannetherese]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
“And to think in some cultures kids were taught to confess the smallest lies, disobedience to authority, cheating, sexual pleasure, sacrilege, etc., before going to communion, we have many adult converts, their teachers, and others to tell us the 2000-yr old Church was all wrong before Vatican II,…”

I re-linked the original article for convenience.

catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/06/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-we-are-in-the-fourth-great-crisis-of-the-church/

It mentions nothing in regards to confession or the requirements of mortal sin. Therefore, it seems like this is an ad hominem complaint against Catholic converts.

Do you think the Catholic Church would be better served by not having converts to the faith?

I wonder if PV might not be thinking about additional factors which may have helped to underscore the holiness of Communion (the Real Presence)?
The examination of conscience, confession, and fasting practices, might help the communicant prepare to be in the presence of the Real Presence and underscore that reality.
We are all either converts or the descendants of converts. The portion of PV’s reply bolded by me underscores that the concern did not involve all converts and included others (and of course we descendants of converts would fit in that’others’ category).
May God bless us all and may we all be continually converted towards adoration of Him in the most Holy Eucharist.
Amen.

 

[ProVobis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ProVobis View Post
“And to think in some cultures kids were taught to confess the smallest lies, disobedience to authority, cheating, sexual pleasure, sacrilege, etc., before going to communion, we have many adult converts, their teachers, and others to tell us the 2000-yr old Church was all wrong before Vatican II,…”

I wonder if PV might not be thinking about additional factors which may have helped to underscore the holiness of Communion (the Real Presence)?
The examination of conscience, confession, and fasting practices, might help the communicant prepare to be in the presence of the Real Presence and underscore that reality.
We are all either converts or the descendants of converts. The portion of PV’s reply bolded by me underscores that the concern did not involve all converts and included others (and of course we descendants of converts would fit in that’others’ category).
May God bless us all and may we all be continually converted towards adoration of Him in the most Holy Eucharist.
Amen.

Thanks for the post. My only point was that people generally follow what they’ve been taught and then proceed to teach what they’ve been taught themselves. The problem is these aren’t always just disciplines and sometimes there is a fine line between disciplines and doctrine. Yes we will always have converts but even the cradle Catholics of the 40’s and 50’s have been known to get a little “wimpy” shall we say? Not having converts won’t fix this. If mine was an ad hominem attack I apologize. And if one wants to claim or imply he is a holier person than me, I will not argue, though I may put him on ignore. I realize studying physics, math, Latin, and business, even with priests, doesn’t put me on the moral high ground. But I’ll never be convinced that ignorance doesn’t have some aspects of bliss to it.