Bishop Burke excommunicates women "priests"

[Cabin4]

Thank you for your reply. Is it heresey, or a sin. If the women are infact not allowed, by doctrine, to be ordained, then why is it not a sin? Why heresey? Why is the original Bishop who gave the “illicit” action not excommunicated for heresey?

Respectfully,
Cabin4

 

[pnewton]

Why is the original Bishop who gave the “illicit” action not excommunicated for heresey?

Respectfully,
Cabin4

That is an excellent question. He surely is guilty of heresy. It may be that he is not under the authority of AB Burke. I will have to read and see if I can find information on him.

 

[Cabin4]

You are right. A Bishop is not under the authority of another Bishop.

It just seems to me to be a witch-hunt for actions that are not deemed “authoritative” to begin with…unless, the excummunication does infact verify that an ordination took place. Do you see why it is strange?

Are those women considered “ordained”, or not? The church feels that their actions were that terrible…to warrant heresey and yet what they did has authority.

 

[saylo]

There have been penances given to me in the many Confessions I have gone through and in my heart I felt they were too light.

It’s a matter of the heart.

If one who is excommunicated wants to return I believe he/she must go through the bishop and not in an anonymous confessional.

If that is the case then the bishop will render the penances.

One thing is for certain: An excommunicant must publicly disavow his/her acts that brought upon the excommunication. Reinstatement is a process and there are formal steps needed to be accomplished. It could also involve a very rigorous penance…one that will test the heart and especially the soul.

Ex-communication is the gravest matter within the authority of the Church…it makes one “anathema.” This is a glaringly profound word…“anathema.”

 

[Cabin4]

So, women who had no authority and could not change the churches authority are, as you put it,…anathema.

Yes, the women would have to publically go through a huge process to unify with the Church.

There is still much debate on this issue…and until Jesus shows up to say it, I find it difficult in my heart to understand, all though be I humbly follow the teachings of the church, even if I have been given the free will to ask questions and decern.

Pray for our Priests…

 

[saylo]

I am addressing canon law which allows for the excommunication of the women. I am addressing the issue with the actions given by penal codes (addressing excommunication for the hisdeous actions of child moelsting priests versus women who say they are priests). As has been mentioned, Christ’s church has chnaged it’s mind throughout history. So, is this history repeating itself?

Also, if Bishop Burke has excommunicated the women, is he saying that they are priests?

No. The bishop is saying the women brought scandal and rebellion to the Church and did it publicly.

They also publicly blasphemed in celebrating a “mass” publicly. This is a public mockery of Christ’s Kingdom on Earth. The women have a long road back but it will be a bumpy one since there are many, many, many demons involved. The women have responded to orders from Hell.

And as for the pedophile priests they are being tried in a court of civil law and evidence will be put forth. If found guilty they face prison and also excommunication. There have been a few priests exonerated against false charges.

 

[agapewolf]

mikew, you are WAAAAAAYYYY off.

I work for the Church in St. Louis. It is so obvious you really have no idea what is going on.

The church was NOT just fine the way it was. The previous priests were being abused terribly at St. Stans, and asked Burke to take care of it.

They were not in accordance with canon law. Money was only ONE issue… and you are believing the media who made it the only issue.

They were very seriously out of line with the rest of the church…

2nd of all, what happens is that someone says or does something, and the media runs to Burke and asks for a comment. He doesn’t seek out the attention. When asked for a comment, he then of course stands up for the truth of the church.

What the media in St. Louis has been telling you is lies. outright.

 

[qui_est_ce]

mikew, you are WAAAAAAYYYY off.

I work for the Church in St. Louis. It is so obvious you really have no idea what is going on.

The church was NOT just fine the way it was. The previous priests were being abused terribly at St. Stans, and asked Burke to take care of it.

They were not in accordance with canon law. Money was only ONE issue… and you are believing the media who made it the only issue.

I would go one step further. Money IS the issue for St. Stan’s because they refused an audit by the diocese. What are they hiding?

**Structure of the parish corporation in 1891when Archbishop Kenrick deeded the parish property **
A Missouri benevolent corporation formed in 1891;

Archbishop appoints six directors and successor directors; the pastor is also a director;

Any dispute or controversy among the directors is referred to the Archbishop whose decision is final and binding;

The powers of the corporation must be exercised in accordance with Church law and any amendment to the bylaws must not conflict with Church law;

Upon dissolution of the corporation, all assets become the property of the Archbishop.

Structure of the parish corporation as amended in 2004 without the approval of the Archbishop :

Directors are elected by the parishioners; the pastor is also a director;
The Archbishop has no authority with respect to the corporation and all references to the Archbishop or the Archdiocese have been removed from the bylaws;
Upon dissolution of the corporation, the parish assets are to be transferred to a Roman Catholic religious organization promoting Polish language and heritage, selected by the board. "

**Parish structure proposed by the Archbishop to the board of directors in January 2005 New parish corporation: **

Create a new nonprofit corporation based on the model for all parishes of the Archdiocese of St. Louis Irrevocable parish trust:

Create a new irrevocable charitable trust whose trustees are appointed by the Archbishop; the pastor is also a trustee;

Holds title to the parish real estate which is leased to the new parish corporation and invests cash and securities for the parish;

If the Parish closes, all parish assets are transferred to the Residuary Corporation;

Residuary corporation:

The present parish corporation will be the residuary corporation. If the parish closes, it will receive the parish assets and will administer these assets for religious, educational and charitable activities for Catholics of Polish descent in the Archdiocese;

The present directors, except for the pastor, remain as directors with parishioners electing successor directors.

They were very seriously out of line with the rest of the church…

2nd of all, what happens is that someone says or does something, and the media runs to Burke and asks for a comment. He doesn’t seek out the attention. When asked for a comment, he then of course stands up for the truth of the church.

What the media in St. Louis has been telling you is lies. outright.

That is a fact

So, choosing not have their finances and control of their own church that they’ve worked hard for over 100 yrs essentially stolen from underneath them is violating Church law and doctrine, huh? Interesting take.

Again, any serious corporation (which St. Stan’s is) should be open to audit for the sake of the shareholders. If the Archdiocese of St. Louis refused an audit, what would the headlines be? Every parish is required to pay a “tax” based on revenues to support the Archdiocese.

Concerning your silly strawman remark, if many of you do believe the Church is potentially capable of doing wrong in some manner, then congrats, maybe you are a little more enlightened that I gave you credit for. However, in this case, IMO, it’s not readily apparent.

Sure Christ said the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church, and the Holy Spirit will always be there to guide. This is true, the Church will never fall, but thats not to say it may not stumble sometimes. I believe this is one of these times. Keep in mind, the Church is run my man and man is prone to error. The Holy Spirit can provide guidance, but is it always being adhered too.

I have personally met the Archbishop on several occasions. He makes the rounds of the parish fish fries on Fridays. He Confirmed my daughter. Archbishop Burke is a an extremely humble and pastoral person. His is also an extremely intelligent canon lawyer - educated in Rome. He is not afraid of the truth. The St Louis Post-Dispatch is openly biased against him and the Catholic Church, embarassingly so. Any other story, they would check their facts, but for articles on the Catholic Church, they misconstrue facts, and always on the front page.

I guess my point about St. Stan’s and the Womenpriests is, why would they want to belong to a club with rules with which they disagree? I believe it is because they consider the Catholic Church the Church which holds the fullnesss of Truth, and they want to belong to that Truth, yet have it their own way. They want the Pope, but they don’t like the inconconvenient truths.

 

[mikew262]

mikew262;3449177:

It is a caricature. God is not reverenced with that kind of depiction.

You deny it; but down deep (if you love God and honor Him) you know it is disrespectful…and very close to blasphemy. I know you do not deny your sins at Confession, right? I am “relaxed” …it is not I who caricatures the Almighty. If you are “relaxed” and comfortable with that then you need some spiritual advice. In Christian charity: Careful !!!

Sorry, I don’t see it this way, however if it offended you, I apologize. Sure, I respect and love God, but I don’t believe he is stuff shirt grumpy old guy with no sense of humor.

My point was I believe God has to be disappointed and frustrated that a Bishop in his Church would choose to basically disown a church and it’s members over such a trivial issue of control and money (IMO).

 

[mikew262]

mikew, you are WAAAAAAYYYY off.

I work for the Church in St. Louis. It is so obvious you really have no idea what is going on.

The church was NOT just fine the way it was. The previous priests were being abused terribly at St. Stans, and asked Burke to take care of it.

They were not in accordance with canon law. Money was only ONE issue… and you are believing the media who made it the only issue.

They were very seriously out of line with the rest of the church…

2nd of all, what happens is that someone says or does something, and the media runs to Burke and asks for a comment. He doesn’t seek out the attention. When asked for a comment, he then of course stands up for the truth of the church.

What the media in St. Louis has been telling you is lies. outright.

Well, I will admit, my knowledge on this is based primarily on what I see in the media and what I read online. However, I do find it strange that the facts you bring up are the first time I’ve heard this. Are you sure you have the facts straight and not just stating the diocese’s spin?

If I’m totally wrong on this issue, then I’m not afraid to retract my opinions, but I’m not ready to do that quite yet.

Getting back to the women priests issue, I agree Burke’s decision was proper. He had no choice but to take the action he did. Those women had to know it was coming.

 

[saylo]

saylo;3449337:

Sorry, I don’t see it this way, however if it offended you, I apologize. Sure, I respect and love God, but I don’t believe he is stuff shirt grumpy old guy with no sense of humor.

My point was I believe God has to be disappointed and frustrated that a Bishop in his Church would choose to basically disown a church and it’s members over such a trivial issue of control and money (IMO).

 

[saylo]

saylo;3449337:

Sorry, I don’t see it this way, however if it offended you, I apologize. Sure, I respect and love God, but I don’t believe he is stuff shirt grumpy old guy with no sense of humor.

"...but I don't believe he is a stuff shirt grumpy old guy....

You are still drawing God in a caricature. God is not a comic book character and to compare Him in that way says a lot about where your heart is. We are talking about an omnipotent God and were He anything as you caricature Him then we would have seen those traits in His Son, Jesus.

You are way off on your perception of Him and give yourself license to portray Him in such a way.

If you think that is a show of reverence then answer this:

Why, in all the writings of all the saints and in the Gospels do we never read such descriptions of Him?

Is this some sort of “New Age” perception of Him?

In charity, you had better back off a bit from being headstrong because you will never know Him with that kind of attitude. If you were in His actual, visible presence you would be lying prostrate on the ground and overwhelmed by His mercy, love and countenance.

Would you lie prostrate in front of a “stuff shirt?” How can you even imagine God even in a lighthearted way? Have you ever heard a Homily with such portrayals?

Careful, my friend.

My point was I believe God has to be disappointed and frustrated that a Bishop in his Church would choose to basically disown a church and it’s members over such a trivial issue of control and money (IMO).

Women priests is not “trivial” neither is rebellion against a duly assigned bishop such as Bishop Burke.

Today is Good Friday and we might all want to focus on the Son of God especially from the hours of 12 noon until 3 pm.

 

[qui_est_ce]

saylo;3449337:

Sorry, I don’t see it this way, however if it offended you, I apologize. Sure, I respect and love God, but I don’t believe he is stuff shirt grumpy old guy with no sense of humor.

My point was I believe God has to be disappointed and frustrated that a Bishop in his Church would choose to basically disown a church and it’s members over such a trivial issue of control and money (IMO).

Did you read my post 128? The Archbishop is not a grumpy old guy without a sense of humor. If you ever meet him, you will see what a holy and loving presence he is.

Also read the FACTS of the actual articles of corporation. Nothing secret about them.

The only “spin” is spun by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. They don’t do their research, put incomplete stories with incorrect fact on the front page, and underneath put “interviews” with on the street Catholics, who obviously don’t know what the Church teaches, and think they can make up their own minds about everything: abortion, women priests, etc. (The Post reported that the Church forbids Communion to divorcees, which is not true). They NEVER interview an informed Catholic. Why not at least put ONE theologian or a priest from St. Louis University on the front page? There is no paucity of intelligent well informed Catholics in this largely Catholic City. We have Two Catholic Universities, one Jesuit, 2 Jesuit high schools among the 15-something high schools, and a Seminary, which is literally overflowing with seminarians. No, the Post has an agenda. My non-Catholic friends tell me how much they admire Archbishop Burke, and how embarrassed they are for the Post because of it’s sloppy reporting when it comes to the Catholic Church. This is a Pulizter Prize publication.

 

[saylo]

mikew262;3453113:

Did you read my post 128? The Archbishop is not a grumpy old guy without a sense of humor. If you ever meet him, you will see what a holy and loving presence he is.

Also read the FACTS of the actual articles of corporation. Nothing secret about them.

The only “spin” is spun by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. They don’t do their research, put incomplete stories with incorrect fact on the front page, and underneath put “interviews” with on the street Catholics, who obviously don’t know what the Church teaches, and think they can make up their own minds about everything: abortion, women priests, etc. (The Post reported that the Church forbids Communion to divorcees, which is not true). They NEVER interview an informed Catholic. Why not at least put ONE theologian or a priest from St. Louis University on the front page? There is no paucity of intelligent well informed Catholics in this largely Catholic City. We have Two Catholic Universities, one Jesuit, 2 Jesuit high schools among the 15-something high schools, and a Seminary, which is literally overflowing with seminarians. No, the Post has an agenda. My non-Catholic friends tell me how much they admire Archbishop Burke, and how embarrassed they are for the Post because of it’s sloppy reporting when it comes to the Catholic Church. This is a Pulizter Prize publication.

my post was not directed at you…it was mikew.

 

[bellesjoy]

Bishop Burke is a good and holy man. God bless him. He is doing what is right according to Holy Mother Church and following the doctrines of our faith.
Our Lord is sending us good apostles in His service and leadership for us. Praise Jesus for the good men sent to us.
Pray for vocations. Pray for our clergy and especially for our Bishops.