Bishop calls for new AIDS theology

[HagiaSophia]

A South African Catholic cleric who supports the use of condoms against HIV/AIDS has called for a new “theology” for the pandemic.

The Universe reports that Bishop Kevin Dowling told the Chicago Tribune that such a theology would be based on an ethic of “human dignity and justice and human rights instead of just an ethic of sexuality”.
cathnews.com/news/511/92.php

Salvadoran archbishop calls for “world action” to protect AIDS victims

San Salvador, Nov. 10, 2005 (CNA) - Archbishop Fernando Saenz Lacalle of San Salvador, El Salvador, warned this week of the need for “world action to protect” those suffering from AIDS and to provide for them “the latest medicines in sufficient abundance.”

“This is a commitment humanity has, we are all brothers and sisters, even though we are separated by borders,” the archbishop said.

catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=5373

 

[Guar_Fan]

Dowling believes that in his diocese–and in much of AIDS-afflicted Africa–the primary effect of using condoms would not be contraception but “to stop transmission of a death-dealing virus.” Under church doctrine, that is “not only allowable, it’s a moral imperative,” he said. “The principle is to protect life. I’m fighting for the principle here.”

Few church leaders agree with him. Pope Benedict XVI has made clear he supports a continuing ban on the use of condoms, and the Southern African Bishops Conference calls efforts to promote condom use an “immoral and misguided weapon against the disease,” saying condom availability leads to moral decay and broader transmission of AIDS. Most African church leaders agree.

A few European cardinals and archbishops–in Brussels, London and Paris–back Dowling’s view. But most church officials “have already made their decision and they just say no,” Keenan said.

the Chicago Tribune article

 

[Eileen_T]

“In the Rustenburg diocese, instead of attempting to stop the exploitation of women forced into prostitution, Dowling’s Church-run health clinics focus on handing out condoms. He says that many men do not like to use a condom when buying the services of a prostitute and so Dowling is hoping his clinics can provide the women with an insertable microbiocidal gel that will not turn off potential clients.”

Whatever happened to us being called to be a sign of contradiction to the world?

Bishops like this need much prayer. They are scandalising the Faithful and leading people astray. It may at first glance look like a compassionate action, but it is condoning people in sinful actions and does nothing to save their souls.

I am not judging Bishop Dowling, but I am aghast at what he is saying. He should be teaching the Gospel Message about Repentence and the Mercy of God.

 

[contemplative]

Never mind that the U.S. Ambassador wrote this in his letter to Pope Bendedict XVI.

We applaud the efforts of the Catholic Church and affiliated agencies that we understand provide more than a quarter of the care and assistance for persons with HIV/AIDS worldwide.

Read more here…

At what measure will people stop trying to grab the soul of our Church?

 

[Skotnicki]

Eileen, until you have worked with prostitutes, perhaps it is best not to judge the Bishop.

**Prostitution in the Middle Ages

Prostitution and Canon Law**

The Middle Ages in Europe witnessed a universal paradox of tolerance and condemnation with regards to prostitution. While technically a sin (because it hinged on the act of fornication), prostitution was recognized by the church and others as a necessary, or “lesser evil” (Karras, 246). It was accepted as fact that young men would seek out sexual relations regardless of their options, and thus prostitution served to protect “respectable” townswomen from seduction and even rape. In 1358, the Grand Council of Venice declared that prostitution was “absolutely indispensable to the world” (Richards, 125). In general, declarations proclaiming the necessity of prostitution were not quite so enthusiastic. Indeed, the church did not hesitate to denounce prostitution as morally wrong, but as St. Augustine explained: “If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts” (Richards, 118).

brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml

 

[Nohome]

Skotnicki:

Eileen, until you have worked with prostitutes, perhaps it is best not to judge the Bishop.

I would only add that the realities of modern day Africa further the need to listen to this Bishop.

Nohome

 

[Lizzie]

Skotnicki:

brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/society/sex/prostitution.shtml

Quoting St Augustine from non-Catholic sources is questionable. It would be far better to read St Augustine’s works from a more credible source.

The authors cited at Brown University’s website appear to be quoting Faustus rather than St Augustine.

 

[Skotnicki]

I suppose Brown Universitie’s Italian department isn’t reliable. But if this appeared on Fox news no one would question it.

The simple act of googling Augustine and Prostitution reveals any number of sites which maintain that Augustine held the smae view as indicated in the Roberts (not Faustus) quotation. Furthermore the New Zealand department of justice likewise notes the same quote and clearly says that it is Augustine being cited in Roberts:

Even early Christian societies did not seek to eliminate prostitution, with the Church fathers justifying this stance by asserting that “Sewers are necessary to guarantee the wholesomeness of palaces.” (quoted by de Beauvoir, 1974, 618). St Augustine was adamant that prostitution should be recognised as a necessary social evil, arguing,
Suppress prostitution and capricious lusts will overthrow society. *** (cited in Roberts, 1992, 61).*

justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2005/sex-industry-in-nz-literature-review/part2.html

Furthermore Aquinas notes:

Instead he notes that the state should allow fornication and prostitution to exist for the sake of the common good. Relying on the well-known passage from Augustine’s De ordine, Aquinas advocates tolerance of prostitution by noting: "Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain evils be incurred: thus Augustine says [De ordine 2.4]: If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.’"51

luc.edu/publications/medieval/vol13/13ch4.html

It would seem that the quote thus comes from Augustine’s De Ordine 2.4

The onus is on you to provide some evidence that would indicate the the quote is being taken out of context.

 

[Lizzie]

Skotnicki:

I suppose Brown Universitie’s Italian department isn’t reliable. But if this appeared on Fox news no one would question it.

The simple act of googling Augustine and Prostitution reveals any number of sites which maintain that Augustine held the smae view as indicated in the Roberts (not Faustus) quotation. Furthermore the New Zealand department of justice likewise notes the same quote and clearly says that it is Augustine being cited in Roberts:

justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2005/sex-industry-in-nz-literature-review/part2.html

Furthermore Aquinas notes:

luc.edu/publications/medieval/vol13/13ch4.html

It would seem that the quote thus comes from Augustine’s De Ordine 2.4

The onus is on you to provide some evidence that would indicate the the quote is being taken out of context.

Since you are on a Catholic forum, one would think you would use reliable Catholic sources. The on-line Catholic Encyclopedia should answer all your questions.

As to your last link, wouldn’t you prove your point if you had sourced Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae directly rather than an a non-Catholic source justifing prostitution?

 

[Skotnicki]

Lizzie:

Since you are on a Catholic forum, one would think you would use reliable Catholic sources. The on-line Catholic Encyclopedia should answer all your questions.

As to your last link, wouldn’t you prove your point if you had sourced Aquinas’ Summa Theologiae directly rather than an a non-Catholic source justifing prostitution?

Actually, the Catholic encyclopedia will not answer all our questions. I happen to own a copy of the encyclopedia (1913 edition) which I received from my parents long prior to the CE being published online. The CE has no entry on prostitution. Furthermore, www.newadvent.com though they have many ECF writings, they lack Augustine’s de Ordine (On Order, or simply ‘Order’ in Jurgens’ Faith of the Early Fathers). I am therefore forced to rely on secondary sources (one Ivy League University site, one Catholic University site and the Angelic Doctor himself) which illustrate the point sufficiently well.

As the second article mentioned though, Aquinas quotes Augustine in passing, drawing a parallel from Augustine’s teaching about prostitution and extending it to the Christian state tolerating other forms of worship.

Here is the Aquinas passage (quoted almost in its entirety by the ULC site which makes this defense redundant yet necessary to appease the archconservatives who cannot stand the thought that Augustine and Aquinas were not republicans:

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): “If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.” Hence, though unbelievers sin in their rites, they may be tolerated, either on account of some good that ensues therefrom, or because of some evil avoided…

newadvent.org/summa/301011.htm

Why is it that this is the third time I have had to defend the quotation from ignorant attacks and immediate claims that it must be false or taken out of context?

Next time save me the effort and if you have a real objection to a quotation, give some credible evidence and do the research yourself.

 

[oldfogey]

But I fail to see what all this has to do with whether a Catholic bishop should be promoting condom use. And why are we relating it to what St. Augustine said about prostitution in the 4th century? What would he have said if in his time prostitution led to death from AIDS? Which occurs with condoms AND without. Do you think his view would be different?

And if an African bishop can promote condoms, why not American bishops, or all bishops? If condoms are good in Africa, why aren’t they a good thing everywhere?

 

[KathleenElsie]

IMHO the AIDS situation will not change unless those that are involved take personal responsibility and stop having SEX and doing other high risk activities. AIDS and HIV will end at that time.

Till then all medical care should be provided for those that have HIV or AIDS. Research to help or eliminate the suffering needs to be funded. But, IMO, allowing the spread of this is just wrong. I feel for those persons that have done nothing to make themselves ill. The children did nothing to deserve the suffering they go through.

We have a responsibility to future generations not to continue to enable those that won’t control themselves. Condoms are not the answer. Sorry if this sounds cold. But, it is a cold world we live in.

 

[Nohome]

KathleenElsie:

IMHO the AIDS situation will not change unless those that are involved take personal responsibility and stop having SEX and doing other high risk activities.

Idealistic and unrealistic. Addiction to sex, drugs and alcohol have been around since before the time of Jesus.

KathleenElsie:

We have a responsibility to future generations not to continue to enable those that won’t control themselves. Condoms are not the answer. Sorry if this sounds cold. But, it is a cold world we live in.

If we can have sex abuse in the clergy, imagine what people are capable of doing without a moral code. Providing condoms doesn’t enable people, the spread of AIDS has shown what can happen without them. Condom or not, infected people are going to have sex. This is the stark reality of life. Until there is a cure, this is the only hope of controling the spread of AIDS.

Nohome

 

[Lizzie]

Nohome:

Idealistic and unrealistic. Addiction to sex, drugs and alcohol have been around since before the time of Jesus.

If we can have sex abuse in the clergy, imagine what people are capable of doing without a moral code. Providing condoms doesn’t enable people, the spread of AIDS has shown what can happen without them. Condom or not, infected people are going to have sex. This is the stark reality of life. Until there is a cure, this is the only hope of controling the spread of AIDS.

Nohome

Absolute baloney!

Please realize that there are still those who value chastity. Not all of us believe that licentiousness should rule our lives. Thinking like this is destructive.

 

[contemplative]

Nohome:

Condom or not, infected people are going to have sex. This is the stark reality of life. Until there is a cure, this is the only hope of controling the spread of AIDS.

Sexual activity is a choice people make. You speak almost like sexual activity is as uncontrollable as breathing or a knee jerk reflex. I have a really good hunch that these very same people who lack discipline enough to know they can and should refrain from sex also lack the discipline to use measures that would help prevent AIDS. I can’t see how condoning condoms would solve the dilemna. I feel very sorry for these many many people afflicted with AIDS. The choices they make are crucial to the lives of others. They need to choose abstinence.

 

[Nohome]

Lizzie:

Absolute baloney!

Really? Perhaps you would like to reference some “abstinance only” projects that have successfully controlled AIDS.

Lizzie:

Please realize that there are still those who value chastity. Not all of us believe that licentiousness should rule our lives. Thinking like this is destructive.

Please know that I value chastity too, but I’ve seen the devastation of AIDS with my own eyes. Condoms are not the solution, but if they spare one life they should be distributed. Hooray for you that you have self control, you also have many of the basic needs that are not being met in Africa.

Nohome

 

[Nohome]

contemplative:

Sexual activity is a choice people make.

Not always the case in Africa.

I can’t see how condoning condoms would solve the dilemna.

Nor do I, but maybe we can slow this disease down enough that science can find a cure before the entire people and culture of Africa is eradicated.

Nohome

 

[Brad]

Perhaps this “new” theology should include human responsibility to educate those in the ways of God and for those educated to respond by allowing their intellect to learn these teachings and work daily to shape their will to conform to what was learned. This “new” theology would teach them that this is the only true and lasting way to happiness both here on earth and in eternal life.

Oh, wait… That seems very vaguely familiar.

 

[Brad]

The “new” theoology could even include the fact that when man and woman were made in the image and likeness of God was when they derived their dignity and it was when they came together in the sacred covenantal union of marriage is where they most image God. How novel.

Is it compassionate to teach others something new that puts on band-aid on their ills but assures their perpetual unhappiness?

 

[ElizabethAnne]

Nohome:

Really? Perhaps you would like to reference some “abstinance only” projects that have successfully controlled AIDS.

Please know that I value chastity too, but I’ve seen the devastation of AIDS with my own eyes. Condoms are not the solution, but if they spare one life they should be distributed. Hooray for you that you have self control, you also have many of the basic needs that are not being met in Africa.

Nohome

\

In Uganda, the AIDS rate is dropping significantly due to a number of factors including the stress put on abstinence first. Campaigns fighting AIDS there educate people about how AIDS spreads, emphasizing that abstinence is the only 100% effective way of not contracting the disease. The number of people having casual sex has greatly reduced because of this message.

There’s a BBC story about the abstinance campaign: news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4433069.stm.

One young man from Uganda who was interviewed for this article said, “We are in love but we are not going to have sex before marriage.”

The abstinence message is reaching people Uganda. Lives are being spared! But the message has to be promoted in order to be heard! Substituting that message with, “You’re not strong enough. Here’s a condom,” does a disservice to these people! As we know, condoms do not always work. Even if you could get people to use them every time they have sex, many would still contract the disease. Not only will their physical health be at risk but their spiritual health as well.

We also do a disservice to people when we promote the idea that the cure for AIDS is coming soon. It gives people with AIDS false hope as well as minimizes the risk for others. Even if this were true, there are plenty of other STDs to worry about. The number and variety of STDs that exist has grown exponentially over the last few decades. Condoms have no effect on the most common STDs like HPV.

Nohome, you said that promoting abstinence is unrealistic. Yes, God’s message about sex and marriage is optimistic and not everyone will follow it, but that is no reason to give up. In the face of difficulty, I want to work even harder to promote His great plan!

God bless.