Bishop Carlson and the Saginaw Diocese

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exaggeration or upset at the way things have become?

Whats wrong with a NORMAL Mass?
 
Does anyone know where i can find interior pictures of the cathedral?

Their website no longer functions and I wnated to show a friend the interior of the cathedral.

Also, has it changed at all since the installation?
 
fcpilot: nothing has changed at the Cathedral… with the possible except of no more lay preaching due to the Bishop asking that the practice be discontinued. We attend Mass there on occasion because of the availability of a Sunday evening Mass and nothing much has changed in the last several years. Your off-broadway production comparison hits the nail on the head.

bknebel: the interior also has not changed. I think at the installation the seating was setup with two sides facing the middle (and one Prie Dieu brought in for the Cardinal). Now the seating is back to a semi-circle with the Bishop’s chair in the middle of the aisle with the rest of the congregation.
 
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bknebel:
exaggeration or upset at the way things have become?

Whats wrong with a NORMAL Mass?
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Ahhh…but see the problem is that one should not use one’s personal opinions (ie “off broadway style music”) as a justification to declare something as schismatic. Just because the music is something you don’t like, that doesn’t make something schismatic.
 
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frommi:
Ahhh…but see the problem is that one should not use one’s personal opinions (ie “off broadway style music”) as a justification to declare something as schismatic. Just because the music is something you don’t like, that doesn’t make something schismatic.
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Why do you do that? He never said that the music was the cause or the example of the schism. YOU made that connection. He was just describing what he saw when he went to Mass at the Cathedral.
 
The musicians are very talented people and much of the music is very beautiful. The biggest issue with the music is that it never stops, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer. The Eucharistic Prayer is not a community prayer…
  1. Among the parts assigned to the priest, the foremost is the Eucharistic Prayer, which is the high point of the entire celebration. Next are the orations: that is to say, the collect, the prayer over the offerings, and the prayer after Communion. These prayers are addressed to God in the name of the entire holy people and all present, by the priest who presides over the assembly in the person of Christ. It is with good reason, therefore, that they are called the “presidential prayers.”
  2. The nature of the “presidential” texts demands that they be spoken in a loud and clear voice and that everyone listen with attention. Thus, while the priest is speaking these texts, there should be no other prayers or singing, and the organ or other musical instruments should be silent.
 
I believe that by "normal " mass you and I may assume that we both would love to participate in a liturgy that is “recognizable” by any Catholic that should come to His supper.

I really want to stress that those at the Cathedral are not “under attack” by the conservatives. (spelled unholy hoard) 😉 I am certain that the intent was to develope a ritual that would “enhance” the experience for the congregation by involving all and having no one member above any other.

What I really recall is the feeling that there was little direction toward the “real sacrifice of Our Lord” in the mass, and more a leaning to, are we getting a “feel good” experience that will fill “me” with a warm fuzzy, because of my participation.
The focus of both “masses” (used loosely) was one of “Where’s my Playbill”?
The pianist was very good and surely well intended, but terribly distracting. (Crystal Cathedralish) What’s the next selection?
“Mass the Musical”? (let the SONshine!)

We are all “One in the Lord” but I really don’t believe that the mass need be a “sensoral happening” at the expense of reverance.

I’m not rich, not terribly good looking, not terribly smart, not terribly wise, unable to give birth, not a priest, nor a nun …we could go on, but, I am what God made me and I thank Him and celebrate the “individual” that he made me. ( Didn’t someone write something, somewhere about coveting things?)

Why must we be everything to everyone? Why do we refuse to allow priest to be priests. Why don’t we respect them for the individuals that God created them to be? Why must we “take over” the celebration of the mass? If we refuse to hold hands, say all of the words of the consecration, enact all of the gestures, and “ordo” at every conceivable moment, would God believe that we are not one?, We don’t care?
Maybe we could be participants in the sacrement “through” our priests. I seem to recall that, that is why they are priests.

To paraphrase John the Baptist, ’ We must decrease for Him to increase’.

Thank You Lord for making me, me! (I bet He knows what He’s doing!) What da ya think?

God’s love and peace to all of you.
 
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MICATH:
The musicians are very talented people and much of the music is very beautiful. The biggest issue with the music is that it never stops, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer. The Eucharistic Prayer is not a community prayer…
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Actually, the Eucharistic Prayer is a community prayer…prayed by the priest to God on behalf of the community.

I’m no big fan of constant background music during the eucharistic prayer…however, I do wish Rome would ok some additional acclamations for during this prayer, even just as a response to the intercessory prayers post-institution.

That being said…in response to Singerlady…the statement was made by Grotto that the cathedral was in ‘mini-schism’. I’m pretty much determined that if people are going to through words like schism around, that I’m going to call them on that, because it’s unfair to everyone involved for that kind of terminology to be bandied about incorrectly.
 
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MICATH:
fcpilot: nothing has changed at the Cathedral… with the possible except of no more lay preaching due to the Bishop asking that the practice be discontinued. We attend Mass there on occasion because of the availability of a Sunday evening Mass and nothing much has changed in the last several years. Your off-broadway production comparison hits the nail on the head.

bknebel: the interior also has not changed. I think at the installation the seating was setup with two sides facing the middle (and one Prie Dieu brought in for the Cardinal). Now the seating is back to a semi-circle with the Bishop’s chair in the middle of the aisle with the rest of the congregation.
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Well, I must say that this is incredibly surprising and disappointing. How long does the new bishop need to clean up his own cathedral? The cathedral is not a back-water parish out on the fringes of the diocese. I mean come on – he’s been there a year now. :whistle:
 
lepanto,

As Bishop Carlson is my former bishop, I can tell you he takes things prayerfully and slowly. He is disbanning lay preachers, and such… he’s taking it a step at a time. You dont’ want to throw too much at people at once. Its like this:

you put a frog in hot, boiling water, its going to leap out. put the frog in lukewarm water and slowly raise the temp, you can get the frog acclimated to the temp.

Bishop is slowly turning the heat up… he’s doing one thing at a time.

I understand the frusterations with the Cathedral, but I’m thinking he’s not so happy at that parish anyways. I’ve noticed that he is doing a lot at St. Stans in Bay City… hmmm…
 
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bknebel:
lepanto,

As Bishop Carlson is my former bishop, I can tell you he takes things prayerfully and slowly. He is disbanning lay preachers, and such… he’s taking it a step at a time. You dont’ want to throw too much at people at once. Its like this:

you put a frog in hot, boiling water, its going to leap out. put the frog in lukewarm water and slowly raise the temp, you can get the frog acclimated to the temp.

Bishop is slowly turning the heat up… he’s doing one thing at a time.

I understand the frusterations with the Cathedral, but I’m thinking he’s not so happy at that parish anyways. I’ve noticed that he is doing a lot at St. Stans in Bay City… hmmm…
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bk: I understand your point, but sometimes it’s better to pull off the Band-Aid quickly. Get the pain over as quickly as possible rather than draw it out.
 
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frommi:
That being said…in response to Singerlady…the statement was made by Grotto that the cathedral was in ‘mini-schism’. I’m pretty much determined that if people are going to through words like schism around, that I’m going to call them on that, because it’s unfair to everyone involved for that kind of terminology to be bandied about incorrectly.
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FromMi, did you even read what I wrote??? I SAID THAT NO ONE POINTED TO THE MUSIC AS BEING AN EXAMPLE OF THE SCHISM. If you are going to respond, at least show some evidence of having actually read what was written.
 
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lepanto:
bk: I understand your point, but sometimes it’s better to pull off the Band-Aid quickly. Get the pain over as quickly as possible rather than draw it out.
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Don’t read too much into the St. Stan’s thing…I think he’s been there twice at this point for liturgies. Frankly, it’s one of the largest churches in the diocese, and definitely the largest in that city. The high school uses it for graduation every year for that reason.

He’s making significant rounds of the diocese from what I hear.
 
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singerlady:
FromMi, did you even read what I wrote??? I SAID THAT NO ONE POINTED TO THE MUSIC AS BEING AN EXAMPLE OF THE SCHISM. If you are going to respond, at least show some evidence of having actually read what was written.
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Actually, they kind of did…the use of ‘schism’ was done in reference to things that were the matter (for the most part) of personal taste. Even those things which would making something ‘illicit’ doesn’t make it schismatic.
 
I know Frommi can’t tolerate my opinions but that does not mean I am exaggerating. Having had to endure and follow closely the destruction of our Catholic Faith in this Diocese for so long has convinced me that the “envelope” was pushed to the limit! The former Bishop was about to be censored by Rome but dodged the bullet because some of the Hierarchy took him by the hand to visit with the Holy Father JPII. Some of his statements are buried with him but live on in my memory such as “No ordinations of priests until they are women” and “There are too many Masses being said”. These are NOT exact quotes but they are not exaggerations or lies.
Call to Action influences were rampant with the former Bishop.He allowed them to hold organized meetings even when Bishop Bruskewitz (sp) denounced them and forbid them in his Diocese.
I remember that piece of news being discussed at our “should be” Catholic Church and the women doing the talking agreed that if thats the case they all were excommunicated! Very bold and still in control are these same women. Bishop Gumbleton had about fifty organizations that he belonged to listed on his profile for the Archdiocese of Detroit and one was Call to Action. He and the former Bishop were very tight along with Los Angeles.
The state of affairs is evident for all to see that will see.
 
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grotto:
I know Frommi can’t tolerate my opinions but that does not mean I am exaggerating. Having had to endure and follow closely the destruction of our Catholic Faith in this Diocese for so long has convinced me that the “envelope” was pushed to the limit! The former Bishop was about to be censored by Rome but dodged the bullet because some of the Hierarchy took him by the hand to visit with the Holy Father JPII. Some of his statements are buried with him but live on in my memory such as “No ordinations of priests until they are women” and “There are too many Masses being said”. These are NOT exact quotes but they are not exaggerations or lies.
Call to Action influences were rampant with the former Bishop.He allowed them to hold organized meetings even when Bishop Bruskewitz (sp) denounced them and forbid them in his Diocese…
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Couple of things here…

You have no sources for this ‘censoring’, so don’t bring that back up. It didn’t happen…it never happened…it wasn’t going to happen.

There was no ‘destruction of the Catholic Faith’. You simply didn’t see things happening the way you would have liked. But the Catholic faith in all of its splendor is alive in Saginaw.

Couple of other things…

“No ordinations until they are women”…that doesn’t hold true because he ordained priests through 2003…then he died in 2004. So did he make that statement in the summer of 03?

“Too many masses”…I’m not sure where this one comes from…I believe that a decision was made that the number of masses you had in a parish had to equal the number of people coming versus how much space you had in the church. So if 500 people came to church on a weekend, and your church seats 250, you had 2 masses. The Bishop never ever would have said there were ‘too many masses’. He had too much of a love of liturgy for that.

Call to Action is ok with every bishop in the country with the exception of Bruskewitz, who felt the need to excommunicate them. He’s the only one. What I find interesting is that when a Bruskewitz is the only bishop doing something, the ‘authentic’ faithful let up a cheer…when an Untener type does it, they phone Rome and start gnashing their teeth.

Your opinions aren’t opinions, they are blatant mistruths about what has gone on.

Folks, if you are reading these threads, I would honestly ask you to simply go to the diocese of Saginaw website…read some of the deceased bishops homilies…read his statements about why he became a priest…or what he believed about priestly ministry…but don’t let the opinions of people who fail to understand what a bishop is and what his rights are find a way to obscure the good work done in that diocese.

Keep something else in mind…the late bishop produced prayer books that are in use in multiple dioceses around the world…so why would other bishops allow the works of a ‘schismatic heretic destructor of the faith’ to be used in their ‘orthodox’ dioceses.

Stuff worth chewin on I tell ya
 
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