Bishop criticizes USCCB committee’s reaction to Ryan budget

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ljpgoodwin said:
The committee of the USCCB that criticized the Ryan budget is made up of the all the bishops of the United States. The two that opposed what the rest of the bishops have written are the only 2 who, up to this point, feel strongly enough to speak against what the rest of the bishops have said.

I am just wondering, who do you suppose is on the committee that criticized the Ryan budget?
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That is factually incorrect. There is no individual USCCB committee I know of that is made up “all the bishops of the United States.”
 
rlg94086 said:
Nope. Pharisees weren’t “governing powers,” so you still get a C-. 😉

So, the civic leaders (the Romans…“Caeser”) were also the religious leaders? You seem a little confused. That said, you are correct regarding the distinction between civic and religious life. Jesus didn’t make any comment about how to govern, tax, etc. That’s why I said He was dismissive, when asked the question. Jesus was instructing us on how to live our lives according to God’s laws.

His comments to the religious leaders (Pharisees, Sadducees) were about their poor leadership in religious and moral matters, not taxation and govenernance).

B- on the Render unto Caeser interpretation. 🙂
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Yes, I agree. He was not commenting on taxes. I agree. I also agree that he was commenting on their poor leadership. What is worth noting here is the the Pharisees, scribs and Sadducees were the only leaders in the community. They were the government and regligious leaders. There was not a group of religious leader and a group of civic leaders. It was all the same thing. For the leaders of that time religious and governenance were both moral matters.
Again, my point was that Jesus did chide the leaders of the day.

It’s gotta be an A.
 
ljpgoodwin said:
Yes, I agree. He was not commenting on taxes. I agree. I also agree that he was commenting on their poor leadership. What is worth noting here is the the Pharisees, scribs and Sadducees were the only leaders in the community. They were the government and regligious leaders. There was not a group of religious leader and a group of civic leaders. It was all the same thing. For the leaders of that time religious and governenance were both moral matters.
Again, my point was that Jesus did chide the leaders of the day.

It’s gotta be an A.
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So, when He said “render unto Caeser,” He was referring to the Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees? Weird. 😛
 
rlg94086 said:
That is factually incorrect. There is no individual USCCB committee I know of that is made up “all the bishops of the United States.”
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The USCCB IS the bishops of the United States. That is what USCCB stands for. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The USCCB is the voice of the American bishops. Cardinal Dolan is the president of the USCCB and before him was Cardinal George of Chicago and before him was Cardinal Bernardin of Chicago.

It is like the senate in D.C. is made up of all of the senators of the U.S. And in the senate there are different committees such as the finance committee, agriculture, armed services, transportation, energy, education and so on. All of these committees are made up of senators. Well the USCCB works the same way.

If you have not had the oportunity to go to the USCCB in Washington D.C. its worth a visit. Right next door is The National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Who do you think is in the USCCB?

President, His Eminence Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, Archbishop of New York
Vice President, Most Reverend Joseph E. Kurtz, Archbishop of Louisville
Treasurer, Most Reverend Michael J. Bransfield,* Bishop of Wheeling-Charleston*
Secretary, Most Reverend George V. Murry, S.J., Bishop of Youngstown
*www.usccb.org *

usccb.org/about/leadership/usccb-general-assembly/

Really, take a look at the bishops website if you don’t already know it. There is lots of great information on the website.
 
ljpgoodwin said:
It is like the senate in D.C. is made up of all of the senators of the U.S. And in the senate there are different committees such as the finance committee, agriculture, armed services, transportation, energy, education and so on. All of these committees are made up of senators. Well the USCCB works the same way.
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And when one committee of the Senate speaks, they do not speak for the entire Senate. Things come out of that committee and then must be voted on by the entire body.
 
ljpgoodwin said:
The committee of the USCCB that criticized the Ryan budget is made up of the all the bishops of the United States. The two that opposed what the rest of the bishops have written are the only 2 who, up to this point, feel strongly enough to speak against what the rest of the bishops have said.

I am just wondering, who do you suppose is on the committee that criticized the Ryan budget?
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No it was not. There was no vote of Bishops.
 
rlg94086 said:
So, when He said “render unto Caeser,” He was referring to the Pharisees, scribes and Sadducees? Weird. 😛
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Not really. At that time, Rome (Caesar) had occupied the region in which Jesus was teaching. The Romans were collecting the taxes. Rome, I guess you could say was a kind of government that porvided some services to the Jews. They built roads and in a way tried to keep the peace. But the Jews understood Rome as a foreign power. The Jews had their own governing power that was centered in Torah and the Temple. The Jews paid their taxes at the Temple to the priests. Some of them hated paying taxes to the Romans. But Jesus said pay to Caesar. He didn’t say don’t pay to Caesar. You can read about these kinds of things in Chronicles. The Jews had their own struggles with religious and civic power which is why they first had Moses as a leader, then they wanted Judges, then Kings then Prophets. All of these different kinds of leadership were both religious and civic. David was a priest and a king. The Judges judged civic cases using Torah and so on.

Again, I chose this passage only to show that Jesus did chide the local authorities.

I still want an A.
 
estesbob said:
No it was not. There was no vote of Bishops.
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Yes there was a committe vote. They voted to challenge the Ryan budget just like they voted to challenge Obama Administration on the HHS issue.

This is how the USCCB works with Washington. That is the job of the bishops when they act through their lobbying effors on the Hill.
 
ljpgoodwin said:
Yes there was a committe vote. They voted to challenge the Ryan budget just like they voted to challenge Obama Administration on the HHS issue.

This is how the USCCB works with Washington. That is the job of the bishops when they act through their lobbying effors on the Hill.
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Actually thats not how it works:

In fact the USCCB has absolutely no authority whatsoever over Catholics:
  1. At the level of particular Churches grouped together by geographic areas (by countries, regions, etc.), the Bishops in charge do not exercise pastoral care jointly with collegial acts equal to those of the College of Bishops.
  2. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular Bishop are required to accept his judgement given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul.
  3. Nonetheless, this territorially based exercise of the episcopal ministry never takes on the collegial nature proper to the actions of the order of Bishops as such, which alone holds the supreme power over the whole Church. In fact, the relationship between individual Bishops and the College of Bishops is quite different from their relationship to the bodies set up for the above-mentioned joint exercise of certain pastoral tasks.
  4. This provision is found explicitly in the Code of Canon Law where we read: “A diocesan Bishop in the diocese committed to him possesses all the ordinary, proper and immediate power which is required for the exercise of his pastoral office except for those cases which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme authority of the Church or to some other ecclesiastical authority”
  5. In other cases “the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent”.
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=734
 
estesbob said:
No it was not. There was no vote of Bishops.

In fact the USCCB has absolutely no authority whatsoever over Catholics:
  1. At the level of particular Churches grouped together by geographic areas (by countries, regions, etc.), the Bishops in charge do not exercise pastoral care jointly with collegial acts equal to those of the College of Bishops.
  2. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular Bishop are required to accept his judgement given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul.
  3. Nonetheless, this territorially based exercise of the episcopal ministry never takes on the collegial nature proper to the actions of the order of Bishops as such, which alone holds the supreme power over the whole Church. In fact, the relationship between individual Bishops and the College of Bishops is quite different from their relationship to the bodies set up for the above-mentioned joint exercise of certain pastoral tasks.
  4. This provision is found explicitly in the Code of Canon Law where we read: “A diocesan Bishop in the diocese committed to him possesses all the ordinary, proper and immediate power which is required for the exercise of his pastoral office except for those cases which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme authority of the Church or to some other ecclesiastical authority”
  5. In other cases “the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent”.
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=734
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Who do you think is on/at the USCCB?

www.usccb.org
 
estesbob said:
Actually thats not how it works:

In fact the USCCB has absolutely no authority whatsoever over Catholics:
  1. At the level of particular Churches grouped together by geographic areas (by countries, regions, etc.), the Bishops in charge do not exercise pastoral care jointly with collegial acts equal to those of the College of Bishops.
  2. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular Bishop are required to accept his judgement given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul.
  3. Nonetheless, this territorially based exercise of the episcopal ministry never takes on the collegial nature proper to the actions of the order of Bishops as such, which alone holds the supreme power over the whole Church. In fact, the relationship between individual Bishops and the College of Bishops is quite different from their relationship to the bodies set up for the above-mentioned joint exercise of certain pastoral tasks.
  4. This provision is found explicitly in the Code of Canon Law where we read: “A diocesan Bishop in the diocese committed to him possesses all the ordinary, proper and immediate power which is required for the exercise of his pastoral office except for those cases which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme authority of the Church or to some other ecclesiastical authority”
  5. In other cases “the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent”.
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=734
Click to expand...
 
ljpgoodwin said:
Who do you think is on/at the USCCB?

www.usccb.org
Click to expand...
In other cases "the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent".

We know that at least two Bishops disented.
 
estesbob said:
Actually thats not how it works:

In fact the USCCB has absolutely no authority whatsoever over Catholics:
  1. At the level of particular Churches grouped together by geographic areas (by countries, regions, etc.), the Bishops in charge do not exercise pastoral care jointly with collegial acts equal to those of the College of Bishops.
  2. In fact, only the faithful entrusted to the pastoral care of a particular Bishop are required to accept his judgement given in the name of Christ in matters of faith and morals, and to adhere to it with a religious assent of soul.
  3. Nonetheless, this territorially based exercise of the episcopal ministry never takes on the collegial nature proper to the actions of the order of Bishops as such, which alone holds the supreme power over the whole Church. In fact, the relationship between individual Bishops and the College of Bishops is quite different from their relationship to the bodies set up for the above-mentioned joint exercise of certain pastoral tasks.
  4. This provision is found explicitly in the Code of Canon Law where we read: “A diocesan Bishop in the diocese committed to him possesses all the ordinary, proper and immediate power which is required for the exercise of his pastoral office except for those cases which the law or a decree of the Supreme Pontiff reserves to the supreme authority of the Church or to some other ecclesiastical authority”
  5. In other cases “the competence of individual diocesan Bishops remains intact; and neither the Conference nor its president may act in the name of all the Bishops unless each and every Bishop has given his consent”.
catholicnewsagency.com/document.php?n=734
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Oh, this is interesting. What is ordinary power?
It seems that #20 is saying that the Conference can’t act without consent. So to what do they need to give consent to?
 
ljpgoodwin said:
Oh, this is interesting. What is ordinary power?
It seems that #20 is saying that the Conference can’t act without consent. So to what do they need to give consent to?
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Read the Document. The USCCB has no jurisdiction over Catholics. The Bishop of a Diocese reports directly to the Pope -the USCCB has no authority over him. As far as “consent” if they say they speak for all the Bishops ALL the Bishops have to agree-which most certainly is NOT the case on the Ryan Budget
 
estesbob said:
Read the Document. The USCCB has no jurisdiction over Catholics. The Bishop of a Diocese reports directly to the Pope -the USCCB has no authority over him. As far as “consent” if they say they speak for all the Bishops ALL the Bishops have to agree-which most certainly is NOT the case on the Ryan Budget
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So where do all of the Bishops Conferences all over the world come from?

I’m not sure that I said anything about the USCCB having power of anybody, did I?

I think that if the USCCB is trying to make people do things they should stop. Do you know of any cases where the USCCB is telling people bishops/priests/lay/ that they have to do something?

I wonder if Cardinal Dolan or George or Bernardin ever had to communicate with Rome about things that were going on in the USCCB.

I wonder if the USCCB has ever written anything about economic justice for all of the people in the U.S. I wonder if they did write something like that if it tells people what they have to do or if it is just a tool for teaching.

I wonder if the USCCB has every written anything on abortion.

Sorry for the sarcsam. I am just trying to make the point that the USCCB was never and will never be a body that imposes actions on anyone. It is and always has been a forum for the bishops to teach about things that are important to American Catholics. It is also the place where the American bishops try to come together in a unified voice to try to change public policy along the lines of Catholic morality.

It’s not a place of power, it’s a place for catechesis and evangelization. Catechesis and evangelization is a primary task of bishops.

The idea of national conferences of bishops came out of Gaudium et spes and Christus Dominus which is the Council’s Degree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops. I know there are many people who don’t like the idea of bishop’s councils. Some people see it as an atact on the authority of the pope. It seems that this could be the case if one understands the office of bishop as a position of power rather than service and teaching.

These are questions that have been asked for a long time France in the 14th through 17th centuries struggled with these questions.
 
estesbob said:
Read the Document. The USCCB has no jurisdiction over Catholics. The Bishop of a Diocese reports directly to the Pope -the USCCB has no authority over him. As far as “consent” if they say they speak for all the Bishops ALL the Bishops have to agree-which most certainly is NOT the case on the Ryan Budget
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Which document is that?
 
jwinch2 said:
Hi Michael.

Its a bit tough to link to a specific thing because the information is spread out. I could give you reports from other agencies but I fear those would be thought of as partisan. The OMB has federal expenditures for each year on their website. I figured that would be the least likely to be spun in a conservative direction as it comes right from the White House.

Peace of Christ,
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Yet another source of confusing information:

fms.treas.gov/fr/index.html

along with

whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/housing.pdf

I find this one most helpful:

usgovernmentspending.com/year_spending_2011USbn_13bs1n_401020503080#usgs302

The Bishops express concerns about these programs and issues:

Housing for the Elderly
Housing for People with Disabilities
Housing for People with AIDS
Veterans Affairs Support Housing
McKinney-Vento Homeless Assistance
Tenant-and Project-based Rental Assistance

Pell Grants
Workforce training & Development
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)
Low-income Tax Credits
DC Opportunity Scholarship Program
Poverty focused international assistance

Good luck finding them. Every other business entity comes out with clear audited annual reports but I guess the federal government is too complicated.

But it comes down to this though, expenses should be viewed at percent of total income if we hope to balance income with expenses.

So my question for all here is this:
What percent of total income (or total expense if you want to look at it that way) is a moral outlay for the poor and vulnerable?
I don’t even think the Bishops look at it that way. All most people see is this increase or that decrease.
 
I thought this might contribute to this thread:
When Church leaders make judgments about how to apply Catholic teaching to specific policies, this may not carry the same binding authority as universal moral principles but cannot be dismissed as one political opinion among others. These moral applications should inform the consciences and guide the actions of Catholics.
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usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/Forming-Consciences-Faithful-Citizenship-bulletin-insert.pdf
 
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