Bishop criticizes USCCB committee’s reaction to Ryan budget

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rlg94086:
Of course not. An item being a “hot topic” does not make it a question of prudential judgement. Those that you listed are not matters for prudential judgement. That said, I’m not sure what you mean by “abortion send a soul to hell.” Do you mean abortion is a grave matter, and someone who aborts is committing a mortal sin (assuming they fit the other two requirements of a mortal sin) and risks going to Hell, if they don’t repent and receive absolution?

I have no “challenges” with any of the Church’s social teaching. 🤷

I am surprised that someone who quotes the Compendium doesn’t understand the difference between the application of Social Doctrine and de fide teachings of the Church, such as the male priesthood, abortion, etc.
The male priesthood is not an article of faith. It is a discipline. The social teaching are constituative teaching and therefore have little more weight than a discipline. I am not surprised when people struggle with these things. Church teaching is very complicated.
 
The male priesthood is not an article of faith. It is a discipline. The social teaching are constituative teaching and therefore have little more weight than a discipline. I am not surprised when people struggle with these things. Church teaching is very complicated.
Just to clear up a bit of misinformation here. The male priesthood is not a discipline. As Pope John Paul II reaffirmed, “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” The Church itself cannot change that.
 
If the head of a family spent a bunch of money that they did not have and put themselves massively in debt, it would be a sin. If the pastor of a parish or the bishop of a diocese did the same, it would be a sin. If the CEO of a business did that they would be thrown in jail. Yet, somehow it is our moral duty as a country? Hardly. The Catechism and the Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church is not a suicide pact. We have a moral imperative to do what we can, not what we cannot. Simply put, we cannot give what we do not have.
To me, this is a key point. I cannot believe that Catholic social teaching would compel national bankruptcy any more than it would compel personal bankruptcy.
 
Just to clear up a bit of misinformation here. The male priesthood is not a discipline. As Pope John Paul II reaffirmed, “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” The Church itself cannot change that.
Exactly. A celibate priesthood in the Latin Church is a discipline. An all male priesthood in the Universal Church is an infallibly defined dogma of the Faith.
 
To me, this is a key point. I cannot believe that Catholic social teaching would compel national bankruptcy any more than it would compel personal bankruptcy.
Bingo.

If you look at the numbers I provided above which I got from the CBO in terms of budget, our federal budget in 2010 was approx. 5.9 trillion dollars. If you take 1.84 trillion of that which was domestic aid to the poor and another 59 billion which was foreign aid, that comes out to approx. 40% of the budget. I’m pretty sure we are meeting our moral obligations from the public sector. Can we all do more from a private standpoint? Of course, and me first of all. However, as a country we are giving plenty. The issue is that government stinks at providing these services. They cost too much and we get too little. Then there is that little part about money going to places like Planned Parenthood, etc. which tends to be a problem for Catholics concerned with morality.
 
The male priesthood is not an article of faith. It is a discipline. The social teaching are constituative teaching and therefore have little more weight than a discipline. I am not surprised when people struggle with these things. Church teaching is very complicated.
Just to clear up a bit of misinformation here. The male priesthood is not a discipline. As Pope John Paul II reaffirmed, “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women.” The Church itself cannot change that.
Exactly. It is not a matter for prudential judgement. Abortion and artificial birth control are also not matters for prudential judgement. None of those are particularly complicated issues, when it comes to Church teaching.
 

Originally Posted by ljpgoodwin
“I really do find it fascinating to see what things challenge people as far as Church teaching goes… I am just making an anthropological observation. I truly do find this stuff fascinating and I truly do want to get into the heads of other people to see what makes them tick as far as their relationship with God and the Church.”​

ljpgoodwin, given your age, perception of the Compendium, and location, I wonder if you ever participated in any of Cardinal Roger Mahony’s Religion Education Conferences? Like you, I, too, am interested in how faith is formed in individual Catholics.
 
Exactly. A celibate priesthood in the Latin Church is a discipline. An all male priesthood in the Universal Church is an infallibly defined dogma of the Faith.
No, actually it is not an infallible dogmatic teaching. It is a teaching that has a solid foundation in Tradition. But it is not a revealed teaching. I could be changed without changing the nature of revealed truth. Pope John Paul II did in fact speak very definitively but stopped short of teaching it infallibly. There have been discussions in Rome about this as recently as 3 years ago. The conversations are around what it means that it is not an infallible teaching. John Paul II was famous for trying to put an end to the discussion, but not going all the way and making it an infallible teaching.
The problem is that the all-male priesthood is not a revealed teaching so Rome says that it cannot therefore be an infallible teaching. The level of teaching comes real close but it did not make the cut so to speak. It is not a matter of faith or morals. It is a matter of Tradition in about the same order as liturgy.
So the process that has been used to determine how we celebrate the Mass would be the same process that would be used to allow female priests.
Catholic social teaching is somewhat higher than the teaching on women priests and liturgy. That is because CST is founded on revealed truth which is that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God and therefore have supernatural dignity. The gender of the priesthood has a natural dignity.
Granted, Rome has the right to say that women will never be priest because this is the job of the government of the Church. People all over the world and every priest in the world could say they want women priests but it would be for naught if Rome says no…which they have.
 
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I do not enjoy having to point out that in 2010 alone the United states spent 1.9 trillion dollars of tax payer money on programs at the state and federal level to help the poor (over half of the federal budget).
Can you link me to that. I am finding the budget & expense sources confusing.

I have this:

publicagenda.org/charts/federal-budget-expenditures

and this:

gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/collection.action;jsessionid=1pkRPlwBLyZ6XvxrhJqvtRtwNy20KmfMQTtzwQFwQ2CQ4RWQp8Xg!-24461527!777386709?collectionCode=BUDGET&browsePath=Fiscal+Year+2011&isCollapsed=false&leafLevelBrowse=false&isDocumentResults=true&ycord=0

but I am not sure what actually is for “the poor”.
 

Originally Posted by ljpgoodwin
“I really do find it fascinating to see what things challenge people as far as Church teaching goes… I am just making an anthropological observation. I truly do find this stuff fascinating and I truly do want to get into the heads of other people to see what makes them tick as far as their relationship with God and the Church.”​

ljpgoodwin, given your age, perception of the Compendium, and location, I wonder if you ever participated in any of Cardinal Roger Mahony’s Religion Education Conferences? Like you, I, too, am interested in how faith is formed in individual Catholics.
I went once to RE Congress and was fully unimpressed. For me, RE is OK for folks who are in a kind of intermediate stage of faith development. I lived in Chicago for a while when Cdnl Bernarden was still alive. He had a summer formation program called Theology on Tap which was not as famous, but I enjoyed it much more than RE
 
You have people taking pot shots at your claims and statements, but I have not seen anyone take pot shots at you. There is a significant difference between attacking the argument and attacking the person.

As for enjoying it, no I am not and I doubt anyone else is either. Frankly, I do not enjoy having to refute false claims about things like the GI bill or college funding for foster children, taking 5 trillion dollars from the budget versus spending 5 trillion dollars less than Obama over the next 10 years and still being 10 trillion in debt, or the fact that the Ryan budget does not really reduce money for social programs at all, it simply does not increase them as fast as others would prefer; the supposed reductions are in comparison to a budget proposed by the left which does not even exist.

I do not enjoy having to correct someone who thinks it is a moral imperative that we keep on spending money that we do not have. In 2011 the federal government spent 3.6 Trillion Dollars. 1.3 Trillion of that was money that we do not have. If the head of a family spent a bunch of money that they did not have and put themselves massively in debt, it would be a sin. If the pastor of a parish or the bishop of a diocese did the same, it would be a sin. If the CEO of a business did that they would be thrown in jail. Yet, somehow it is our moral duty as a country? Hardly. The Catechism and the Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church is not a suicide pact. We have a moral imperative to do what we can, not what we cannot. Simply put, we cannot give what we do not have.

I don’t enjoy pointing out that the Dodd - Frank law, which you lament the repeal of in the Ryan budget, does not provide oversight or regulation to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, who are the two biggest lenders in the country for home loans. I don’t enjoy saying that because they are not regulated while private lenders are, it forces the private lenders to spend more money to finance a loan than it does Fanny and Freddie which is unfair competition on the part of the government. I don’t enjoy saying that both Dodd and Frank are knee deep involved with both Fanny and Freddie and have been for years. But it is the truth nonetheless.

I do not enjoy having to point out that in 2010 alone the United states spent 1.9 trillion dollars of tax payer money on programs at the state and federal level to help the poor (over half of the federal budget). In 2010, approx. 200 billion dollars was given to charities to help the poor in the United States. If you add all that up with projected number of persons below the poverty line in the United States at 20% in 2010, every single poor person (men, women, and children) in the country could have been handed a check for $340,000. A family of four could have been given a check for 1.58 Million dollars. Do you really think that those families of four got 1.58 million dollars worth of services in 2010? And after all of this, you would have us believe that we are not spending enough money. Really? The truth of the matter is that very little of the money that is actually spent to help the poor ends up reaching them. Instead it is used to prop up bloated state and federal agencies and programs that have largely failed in their purpose.

I don’t enjoy any of that and I doubt anyone else does either. However as long as you continue to make unsubstantiated claims, I will continue to refute them.
I’m sorry my humor didn’t come through with the “pot shots” comment.
For me, I take pride in my country when we make use of funds to help people. I know how much of a difference these programs make in peoples lives and how much they add to the stability and common good for the country.
I am happy when people don’t complain about paying taxes for the benefit of our brothers and sisters.
I am edified by people who are good citizens and take part and embrace their civic duty. Many of them are very good Catholics who have strong family ties in the community.
I regularly meet with groups of people where we plan to have meetings with our elected officials. We let them know what we want for our community and we often have good results.
I enjoy helping people come to know that the government is not a bad thing. It is amazing to see how many people change after they have an experience of taking part in a conversation with their elected officials.
Granted there are some officials who are not the best public servants. Andrew Thomas from Arizona comes to mind and so does Nancy Peloci.
There are few things that I like better than a positive civic minded pro-life Catholic who is smart enough and likable enough to make things happen and create a positive change in the lives of people around them who they may or may not know.
 
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (OrdinatioSacerdotalis 4).”

catholic.com/tracts/women-and-the-priesthood

One might say that this has “not been infallibly proclaimed” in the same way that the Church has never issued an infallible proclamation that there is a God!

But, back to the topic at hand…
 
No, actually it is not an infallible dogmatic teaching. It is a teaching that has a solid foundation in Tradition. But it is not a revealed teaching. I could be changed without changing the nature of revealed truth. Pope John Paul II did in fact speak very definitively but stopped short of teaching it infallibly. There have been discussions in Rome about this as recently as 3 years ago. The conversations are around what it means that it is not an infallible teaching. John Paul II was famous for trying to put an end to the discussion, but not going all the way and making it an infallible teaching.
The problem is that the all-male priesthood is not a revealed teaching so Rome says that it cannot therefore be an infallible teaching. The level of teaching comes real close but it did not make the cut so to speak. It is not a matter of faith or morals. It is a matter of Tradition in about the same order as liturgy.
So the process that has been used to determine how we celebrate the Mass would be the same process that would be used to allow female priests.
Catholic social teaching is somewhat higher than the teaching on women priests and liturgy. That is because CST is founded on revealed truth which is that human beings are created in the image and likeness of God and therefore have supernatural dignity. The gender of the priesthood has a natural dignity.
Granted, Rome has the right to say that women will never be priest because this is the job of the government of the Church. People all over the world and every priest in the world could say they want women priests but it would be for naught if Rome says no…which they have.
:doh2:

Have you ever heard of the ordinary and universal magisterium? :confused: Also, a teaching isn’t just “made” infallible, it’s declared infallible and has objectively always been infallible. Women can’t be priests because when priests offer a Mass they offer it in the person of Christ. Christ is a male.

😦
 
Michael,

I got my numbers from the OMB and kind of had to go through and do some math here and there. Unfortunately, there is no line item in the budget labeled “welfare”. Its a bit subjective at times what actually should be considered assistance for the poor and what is not. I tried to go through and look up each program and make a judgement from there. I figure based on subjective judgments regarding what is and is not welfare, I could be off plus or minus 10 billion or so. However, as an FYI, I did try to err on the low side if there was any question. At the end of the day though, I am pretty close and the same analysis can be drawn which is that we are spending a boatload of money per person for little tangible benefit.

We could cut the amount of money spent helping the poor down to roughly 300 billion or 1/10 of what we are spending now, and hand every poor person in the country a check for $50,000. That means a family of four with two adults and two kids would just get $200,000. Instead of using it to prop up massive government programs which aren’t working. They would probably be far better off that way, and so would our economy.

What’s nice though is you can see things individually such as spending approx. 1.6 billion dollars on cell phones for the poor in 2011. If you figure 20% of individuals below the poverty line, that works out to roughly $2300 per person spent to provide cell phones. Seems a bit excessive to me. I don’t pay nearly that much.
 
You have got to be kidding. Can you provide a link to a bishop who claims this is true? Any bishop.
The bishop who taught me Fundamental Scripture for one and the Mngr. who taught me Canon Law.
It is nothing to be scandalized about. It does not mean that women are going to become priests. Don’t worry. The difference is that the teaching on women priests is not a teaching that comes from revealed truth. CST is a body of teaching that comes directly from revealed truth. CST belongs to moral theology.
Also be aware that I am not advocating for ordaining women. I am not a crazy liberal. I am just a centrist Catholic who loves moral theology.
 
“Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful" (OrdinatioSacerdotalis 4).”

catholic.com/tracts/women-and-the-priesthood

One might say that this has “not been infallibly proclaimed” in the same way that the Church has never issued an infallible proclamation that there is a God!

But, back to the topic at hand
On the other hand, it is “somewhat higher teaching” that the Ryan budget is contrary to the Social Doctrine of the Church… 😉
 
You have people taking pot shots at your claims and statements, but I have not seen anyone take pot shots at you. There is a significant difference between attacking the argument and attacking the person.

As for enjoying it, no I am not and I doubt anyone else is either. Frankly, I do not enjoy having to refute false claims about things like the GI bill or college funding for foster children, taking 5 trillion dollars from the budget versus spending 5 trillion dollars less than Obama over the next 10 years and still being 10 trillion in debt, or the fact that the Ryan budget does not really reduce money for social programs at all, it simply does not increase them as fast as others would prefer; the supposed reductions are in comparison to a budget proposed by the left which does not even exist.

I do not enjoy having to correct someone who thinks it is a moral imperative that we keep on spending money that we do not have. In 2011 the federal government spent 3.6 Trillion Dollars. 1.3 Trillion of that was money that we do not have. If the head of a family spent a bunch of money that they did not have and put themselves massively in debt, it would be a sin. If the pastor of a parish or the bishop of a diocese did the same, it would be a sin. If the CEO of a business did that they would be thrown in jail. Yet, somehow it is our moral duty as a country? Hardly. The Catechism and the Compendium for the Social Doctrine of the Church is not a suicide pact. We have a moral imperative to do what we can, not what we cannot. Simply put, we cannot give what we do not have.

I don’t enjoy pointing out that the Dodd - Frank law, which you lament the repeal of in the Ryan budget, does not provide oversight or regulation to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, who are the two biggest lenders in the country for home loans. I don’t enjoy saying that because they are not regulated while private lenders are, it forces the private lenders to spend more money to finance a loan than it does Fanny and Freddie which is unfair competition on the part of the government. I don’t enjoy saying that both Dodd and Frank are knee deep involved with both Fanny and Freddie and have been for years. But it is the truth nonetheless.

I do not enjoy having to point out that in 2010 alone the United states spent 1.9 trillion dollars of tax payer money on programs at the state and federal level to help the poor (over half of the federal budget). In 2010, approx. 200 billion dollars was given to charities to help the poor in the United States. If you add all that up with projected number of persons below the poverty line in the United States at 20% in 2010, every single poor person (men, women, and children) in the country could have been handed a check for $340,000. A family of four could have been given a check for 1.58 Million dollars. Do you really think that those families of four got 1.58 million dollars worth of services in 2010? And after all of this, you would have us believe that we are not spending enough money. Really? The truth of the matter is that very little of the money that is actually spent to help the poor ends up reaching them. Instead it is used to prop up bloated state and federal agencies and programs that have largely failed in their purpose.
It’s actually worse than this.

The biggest problems as regards “the poor” right now are:
  1. Lack of jobs for those who are physically able to work. This is especially acute among minorities and young people.
  2. Horrible misallocation of funds. We give billions to middle class people to buy new cars they could afford anyway, and have done nothing at all for the disabled needy.
Regarding the first, it’s just an economic fact that all money has to return to its country of origin in some manner or it becomes worthless in the hands of the one holding it. Right now, this country runs a significant trade deficit. That’s true for a number of reasons. But, the rule goes, the money would have to come back or become worthless. Trouble is, that by issuing so much debt, our foreign creditors have another choice…buy American debt instead of American goods and services or otherwise investing it productively here. If the money was spent on goods and services or productive investments, it would help employment. By saddling Americans with ever more and more debt owed to foreign countries, it drains the country of money even more.

As to the second problem the poor have, there might not be any cure for it, politically. The current administration has well demonstrated that it has no interest in the truly poor. Its programs are all middle class welfare…vote buying. Will it be any better with the Repubs? Hard to know, but it may be observed that the last thing either party did that really meant much for the poor is the earned income credit, and that was Reagan’s. And, at least there is a reasonable possibility they will enhance job growth.

Finally, I will repeat again that positions taken by the USCCB are NOT the voice of “the bishops”. One or two lay bureaucrats or some committee person publishes something and it may or may not be the opinion of anyone other than his own. That is a big problem with the USCCB; probably nearing reform but not there yet. I can’t speak for all the bishops any more than the USCCB bureaucrats ought to purport to do it. But I do know my own bishop is absolutely not on “all fours” with things like the two-bishop critique of the Ryan plan. Then there’s Ryan’s bishop who did not think it was contrary to Catholic teachings. It might be added that even those two bishops who critiqued the plan did so only on two bases and did not intend the publication of their letter in which they said it.
 
So, two things…
  1. You didn’t provide anything quoting a bishop that says the Social Doctrine of the Church is greater revealed teaching than the all-male priesthood.
  2. Note the wording of the link you provided:
    “Catholic social teaching emerges from the truth of what God has revealed to us about himself.” Are you claiming that doctrine that emerges from revealed truth is the same as revealed truth and/or infallible teaching? There are a lot of doctrinal teachings that “emerge from” revealed truths.
 
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