Bishop: Diocese of Covington felt 'bullied and pressured' into condemning students too quickly

[pnewton]

Apparently you missed the point of my remark,

I wasn’t referring to you specifically, for this Cuomo thing has come up on several threads unrelated to him. And I do not miss the point as much as dismiss it, as I do all attempts at “what-about”. An analogy is a comparison provided as evidence. Whataboutism is an attempt to deflect a topic by switching topics. Jesus put Peter in his place in John 21 over whataboutism. In the context of discussion or in political news shows, it is only about muddying waters, like some sea creatures do to escape.

 

[Ender]

I wasn’t referring to you specifically, for this Cuomo thing has come up on several threads unrelated to him. And I do not miss the point as much as dismiss it, as I do all attempts at “what-about”. An analogy is a comparison provided as evidence. Whataboutism is an attempt to deflect a topic by switching topics. Jesus put Peter in his place in John 21 over whataboutism. In the context of discussion or in political news shows, it is only about muddying waters, like some sea creatures do to escape.

Let’s try this again. The specific topic of the thread is the inappropriate actions of the bishop of Covington regarding the school boys who were accosted in DC, an inappropriateness shared by several other bishops who also piled on before the truth came out. Given then that the discussion is generally about the unfortunate actions of bishops, pointing to their behavior in other situations seems quite appropriate.

I didn’t mention Cuomo to comment on him or his actions. I mentioned him to contrast the actions of the bishops in those two instances: condemning when they should have remained silent, and remaining silent when they should have condemned.

As an observation about the unfortunate inclinations of many of our bishops these two incidents are of a piece, and tell the same regrettable story.

 

[pnewton]

As an observation about the unfortunate inclinations of many of our bishops…

This type of grouping is always problematic, whether it be “posters here,” liberals, Trump supporter, or bishops. Individuals cannot be consistent when grouped because they are individuals. A bishop, a single bishop, made a statement too fast. Two bishops (that I know) condemned the actions of Governor Cuomo. There is no relationship between such actions, and no hypocrisy. It would be like saying Americans are hypocrites because they preach civil rights yet still burn crosses at Klan rallies.

This is a frequent theme here and leads to such accusations of hypocrisy against people who have been consistent individual, but are grouped with people that they do not always align with.

So here we have bishop Foys, not defending, but explaining why the diocese acted in haste, and apologizing for that rashness. The only choice is to be forgiving or not, which should not be a hard choice for a Catholic.

 

[CilladeRoma]

It wasn’t just one Bishop, I believe 3 or 4 Bishops had made comments that they has to walk back a bit.

 

[Ender]

It wasn’t just one Bishop, I believe 3 or 4 Bishops had made comments that they has to walk back a bit.

Yes, that was what I alluded to.

Rev. John Stowe, Bishop of Lexington: “I am ashamed that the actions of Kentucky Catholic high school students have become a contradiction of the very reverence for human life that the march is supposed to manifest.”

Rev. Roger Foys, Bishop of Covington: their “behavior is opposed to the Church’s teachings on the dignity and respect of the human person.”

Rev. Joseph Kurtz, Archbishop of Louisville: “I join with Bishop Foys in condemning the shameful actions of Covington Catholic students towards Mr. Nathan Phillips and the native American community.”

Archdiocese of Baltimmore: “The Archdiocese of Baltimore condemns the disrespect shown toward a Native American elder during the March for Life.”

 

[CilladeRoma]

Bishop Stowe really stepped in it, knee deep.

I thought he was a bit over the top.

 

[MapleLeaf1]

You should see what Fr Daniel Horan wrote lol.

 

[CilladeRoma]

Sadly, I did. I live close to St. Bonaventure, so I am very familar with him.

 

[Joe_5859]

Man, you just can’t please some people.

Whenever something breaks in the news regarding the Church, people take to social media clamoring for bishops to make swift and decisive statements of condemnation. No need to wait for the facts to emerge. We read one article and saw one edited video, so we know what’s what. If a bishop does not speak quickly and forecfully, he is a coward.

Then a bishop does issue a swift and decisive statement of condemnation in response to a story, and he is vilified for caving to outside pressure and bullying high school teens before even getting his facts straight.

Said bishop recognizes and admits to this mistake, and people are still clamoring for his resignation and calling him a coward.

I’m surprised people aren’t asking for bishops’ heads to be put on spikes in the town square.

Does anyone who has gotten so worked up over this even know the first thing about Bishop Foys? Look at his diocesan decree when the new Missal came out back in 2011. He reinforces that no priest should be ad libbing the Mass. He asks that the laity do not adopt the orans posture during the Our Father, and that they should not be holding hands either. He should be a hero around these parts.

You’d think we’d want more bishops like Bishop Foys, not less.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I am hoping that some of this is tongue & cheek. :crazy_face:

I agree with your point that some are never happy, but in this particular case, I think that far too many people, including Bishop’s & priest’s, rushed to judgment because of the political climate.
If this action was not condemned immediately, that meant that it was being condoned. No need to wait for facts, the seriousness of the accusation was enough. This is exactly what is wrong with our country. And the fact that Bishop’s, who are supposed to be shepherd’s, threw these kids under the bus, without any facts at all, calls into question their leadership skills.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m not saying that Foys and his communication people didn’t make a mistake. Clearly they did, and Foys is admitting it. And it certainly is regrettable that anyone, especially a bishop, would feel the need to speak quickly before all the facts rolled in.

I think in this case, it was more understandable because the first video that came out did paint an unflattering picture. I’m not inclined to let this one media snafu lead me to conclude that Foys is deficient in leadership skills. He made a mistake. He owned up to it. Time to move on. I see no reason why this one mistake should define his 17 years as a bishop.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I don’t disagree with you.

However, where was this compassion (not saying you in particular) for these boys?

People saw one segment of a video that was selectively edited and rushed to condemn them.
Isn’t “rash judgment” a sin?

They didn’t do anything wrong, and they were branded racists who have been bullied and threatened.
A lot of which was probably fueled by the fact that their own Bishop condemned them without all the facts.

An apology is one thing, accepting the consequences of your actions is another. It was expected that if these kids were guilty, they accept the consequences, why should it be different for their Bishop?

 

[Joe_5859]

Personally, I have a lot of compassion for the teens. I can imagine myself in high school being in that kid’s position and just feeling so awkward I wouldn’t even know how to react.

An apology is one thing, accepting the consequences of your actions is another. It was expected that if these kids were guilty, they accept the consequences, why should it be different for their Bishop?

Okay, so what are the consequences that Bishop Foys needs to accept? He admitted his mistake. He’s already been vilified by many media sources. Do bishops need to resign every time they make a mistake? I’m not sure the Apostolic Nunciature could handle that case load.

 

[pnewton]

It was compassion for the teens that drove this need for an apology. I would like to point out that at the same time the bishops rushed do judgement based on the first bits of news, others did the same and defended the teens, and condemn the ones who did not like their hats. While they were shown to be correct, that judgement was also rash.

Furthermore, this very thread, showing up the day of this apology, was posted more quickly than any of the bishops letters. Those who are quick to form opinions should be slow to condemn others for doing the same. I am just as convinced that these quick judgments were equally formed from the political climate of the conservative mindset. I have read too many blanket condemnations of “the bishops” to believe otherwise.

In other words, it is only after removing the beam from one’s own eye that one can see clearly to remove the speck from another’s.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I think the problem is not only has our country become polorized politically, our Church has also.

Since the Bishop’s were silent on things they had control over for so long (abuse scandal), they now feel that if they don’t speak up, they will be vilified.

I get it, the Bishop’s are between a rock and a hard place, but maybe they should be an example to the rest of the country and let all the facts come out before they put their two cents in.

 

[Ender]

It was compassion for the teens that drove this need for an apology. I would like to point out that at the same time the bishops rushed do judgement based on the first bits of news, others did the same and defended the teens, and condemn the ones who did not like their hats.

There is no similarity at all between the actions of the bishops who condemned those kids and of those people who defended them. The bishops chose to act based on incomplete and distorted information. What was unknown to those who defended the kids?

While they were shown to be correct, that judgement was also rash.

So, the defenders were right and the bishops were wrong but it’s all the same because rushing to condemn is no worse than rushing to defend. Who believes this?

 

[pnewton]

There is no similarity at all between the actions of the bishops who condemned those kids and of those people who defended them.

Says you. Incomplete information is still incomplete information. You said there was no similarity and then gave the very similarity I meant. And in this confrontation, the defense of the boy involved a condemnation of Phillips. While this latter is deserved, this was not known to those who condemned him early in defense of the teens.

I think the problem is not only has our country become polorized politically, our Church has also.

I have to think that those who made a snap decision, either way, were as influenced by those red hats as Phillips was, either condemning the Trump supporters, or condemning the one who confronted them. As with most news, patience would have been more prudent. I am hoping that with the humility the bishop is showing, he will also be wiser next time.

 

[Ender]

You said there was no similarity and then gave the very similarity I meant.

No, there is no comparison between the actions of a bishop who publicly condemned the kids in his own diocese, and those of private individuals who came to their defense.

And in this confrontation, the defense of the boy involved a condemnation of Phillips. While this latter is deserved, this was not known to those who condemned him early in defense of the teens.

According to you the defense included condemnation of Phillips before his actions were really known. Give us an example of this. Cite who you are referring to and what they said that you find inappropriate.