Bishop Felley: "I think we'll get an Agreement"

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JKirkLVNV said:
The Church doesn’t need this people,.
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that concerns me… so the church doesn’t need people like my mom and my sister and my brother who attend the SSPX chapels? wow… rather harsh

the church needs all Catholics, and we need to pray for them as well…
 
MyPhilomena said:
that concerns me… so the church doesn’t need people like my mom and my sister and my brother who attend the SSPX chapels? wow… rather harsh

the church needs all Catholics, and we need to pray for them as well…
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No, frankly, any more than they NEED my materially heretical family members (they’re all Baptists). Certainly, everyone needs to come home to the unity of the Church, the obedience of the legitimate, Christ-ordained authority. We need them ALL in the sense that it is the desire of the Savior that we all be one (the 99 left safe in the fold while He goes in search of the one that’s lost), but that unity is already possessed by the Church and those outside of it are the ones lacking.

What concerns me is the attitude that we will be welcoming these people back not with compassion and understanding (we’ve all sinned, we’re all prodigals in one sense or the other, and just like in the Parable of the Prodigal, we shouldn’t cop an attitude like the elder brother), but as though they were conquering heroes, come back to fix the Church. They’re not, not in the least. They’re excommunicate bishops (and, in at least one instance that I can think of, heretics) and priests who’ve been suspended ad divinis from the celebration of the Sacraments. They were and are wrong. Of course, they can continue to illicitly consecrate bishops. So could other schismatics throughout the centuries. It’s not that big a stick at all. And this isn’t the same as with the Eastern Orthodox. The SSPX isn’t the other lung. They were a part of THIS lung and they departed in disobedience.
 
well that is sad… so the church doesn’t need my mom or my sister or my brother or myself then? how sad. 😦 so the church only needs the laity of the sspx when it comes into reconciliation, and not before huh?
 
MyPhilomena said:
well that is sad… so the church doesn’t need my mom or my sister or my brother or myself then? how sad. 😦 so the church only needs the laity of the sspx when it comes into reconciliation, and not before huh?
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The more important question you should ask yourself is “Do I need the church?” If so, the door is open. If not, the choice is yours.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
No, frankly, any more than they NEED my materially heretical family members (they’re all Baptists). Certainly, everyone needs to come home to the unity of the Church, the obedience of the legitimate, Christ-ordained authority. We need them ALL in the sense that it is the desire of the Savior that we all be one (the 99 left safe in the fold while He goes in search of the one that’s lost), but that unity is already possessed by the Church and those outside of it are the ones lacking.

What concerns me is the attitude that we will be welcoming these people back not with compassion and understanding (we’ve all sinned, we’re all prodigals in one sense or the other, and just like in the Parable of the Prodigal, we shouldn’t cop an attitude like the elder brother), but as though they were conquering heroes, come back to fix the Church. They’re not, not in the least. They’re excommunicate bishops (and, in at least one instance that I can think of, heretics) and priests who’ve been suspended ad divinis from the celebration of the Sacraments. They were and are wrong. Of course, they can continue to illicitly consecrate bishops. So could other schismatics throughout the centuries. It’s not that big a stick at all. And this isn’t the same as with the Eastern Orthodox. The SSPX isn’t the other lung. They were a part of THIS lung and they departed in disobedience.
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Very good post. The bottom line is that excommunication means mortal sin, Lefebvre if he didnt repent and come back to Rome before death…well you know…same for Fellay…
I would have thought the RadTrad’s understood something as serious as that. They can go consecrating all they want damming themselves all the way to Hell.

Rome cannot bow to those dissenters or else Luther was right, if they win here then its official, when someone doesnt get their way with Rome they can go off doing their own thing and have Rome dance to their tune.:mad:
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Very good post. The bottom line is that excommunication means mortal sin, Lefebvre if he didnt repent and come back to Rome before death…well you know…same for Fellay…
I would have thought the RadTrad’s understood something as serious as that. They can go consecrating all they want damming themselves all the way to Hell.

Rome cannot bow to those dogs or else Luther was right, if the dogs win here then its official, when someone doesnt get their way with Rome they can go off doing their own thing and have Rome dance to their tune.:mad:
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oh so the laity of the SSPX are dogs do i understand you correctly? also, it is not up to you or i to decide who goes to hell or not. we do not have the right to state who goes to hell. that is up to GOD and NOT us.
 
so please tell me, where does it state in any of JP2’s statements or documents that these people are going to hell? where does it state that pope Benedict XVI stated unequivocally that they are going to hell? it is not up to us to say who goes to hell or not. I would like to see the Vatican link that states they are going to hell. please provide it for us. God is the only one who can decide who goes to hell or not, it is NOT up to us to state who goes to hell.
 
MyPhilomena said:
so please tell me, where does it state in any of JP2’s statements or documents that these people are going to hell? where does it state that pope Benedict XVI stated unequivocally that they are going to hell? it is not up to us to say who goes to hell or not. I would like to see the Vatican link that states they are going to hell. please provide it for us. God is the only one who can decide who goes to hell or not, it is NOT up to us to state who goes to hell.
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Ecclesia Dei which is the offical document Pope John Paul II wrote officially excommunicates the leaders of the Lefebvrists by name and goes onto say anyone who supports them is excommuncated as well.

The fact is excommunication is a mortal sin, of all people the so called “traditionalists” should recognize this. They are in a state of mortal sin right now along with the sin of illicit sacraments, if they want to pretend they can remain sspx and be saved…well I certainly wouldnt put my bets on such a thing…we cant sit by and pretend they are heros or martyrs, the mock the CC and the Pope with their actions.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Ecclesia Dei which is the offical document Pope John Paul II wrote officially excommunicates the leaders of the Lefebvrists by name and goes onto say anyone who supports them is excommuncated as well.

The fact is excommunication is a mortal sin, of all people the so called “traditionalists” should recognize this. They are in a state of mortal sin right now along with the sin of illicit sacraments, if they want to pretend they can remain sspx and be saved…well I certainly wouldnt put my bets on such a thing…we cant sit by and pretend they are heros or martyrs, the mock the CC and the Pope with their actions.
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did he say publicly that they are all going to hell including the priests, the laity?
 
I think that the Church could use many that are in the SSPX. Most of the members I know are well versed in Catholic Doctrine, and are pretty devout individuals. I think the problem with many of them is pride. I think that in order for Bishop Fellay and the rest of the SSPX to come back - they must do so with humility. They need to stop bashing the NO mass (I have heard many members do this). I’m not saying one cannot have concerns, but referring the NO mass as an evil thing cannot be permitted.

I believe that there will be some sort of reconciliation soon. Sadley - what I am afraid is that many in the SSPX will not be happy, and mey join a group like the SSPV, or some other sedavacanist sect. I hope I am wrong.

By the way - reffering to individuals as “RadTrad’s” is against forum rules.
 
Unless we are going to allow Milingo back on his terms, allowing SSPX back on its term is ludicrous. The Church does not need any particular person, Truth is Truth regardless of whether the Church has 12 members or 1 billion. Schismatics are well aware of what they are doing and should be punished for it. Their is right way and a wrong way to handle disagreements and schism is the wrong answer every time. I am all for the return of the Tridentine Mass, but I am not for a compromise that implies situation ethics for one group of schismatics.
 
Adonis33 said:
I think that the Church could use many that are in the SSPX. Most of the members I know are well versed in Catholic Doctrine, and are pretty devout individuals. I think the problem with many of them is pride. I think that in order for Bishop Fellay and the rest of the SSPX to come back - they must do so with humility. They need to stop bashing the NO mass (I have heard many members do this). I’m not saying one cannot have concerns, but referring the NO mass as an evil thing cannot be permitted.

I believe that there will be some sort of reconciliation soon. Sadley - what I am afraid is that many in the SSPX will not be happy, and mey join a group like the SSPV, or some other sedavacanist sect. I hope I am wrong.

By the way - reffering to individuals as “RadTrad’s” is against forum rules.
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at no time did i ever state that the novus ordo was evil or invalid, and i wont. because that would be untrue. i had concerns with things that happen in the novus ordo but never once stated it was evil or invalid. iam not a RadTrad, and thanks for pointing out the fact that it is against forum rules.
 
MyPhilomena said:
at no time did i ever state that the novus ordo was evil or invalid, and i wont. because that would be untrue. i had concerns with things that happen in the novus ordo but never once stated it was evil or imvalid. iam not a RadTrad, and thanks for pointing out the fact that it is against forum rules.
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I wasn’t referring to you. Sorry if you thought I was.

I was referring to many I know that are SSPX.
 
Adonis33 said:
I wasn’t referring to you. Sorry if you thought I was.

I was referring to many I know that are SSPX.
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thanks. the people i know personally in the SSPX would never even consider joining a society like SSPV.
 
There are even canonized Saints who died excommunicated.

So please don’t exaggerate it’s only God who knows the heart.
Besides popes are not infallible when it comes to these kinds of decisions, they can be used for many reasons not all of them good.
We need to obey anyway but we do not always have to think it’s the best decision.

And we should pray for the Lefevrists and the Protestant heretics and the Byzantine schismatics.
 
MyPhilomena said:
did he say publicly that they are all going to hell including the priests, the laity?
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I nor the Pope said they were certainly going to Hell, however from an objective point of view they are certainly ex-communicated which is a very grave sin in Catholic teaching. Catholic teaching states unconfessed mortal sin leads to hell, to remain excommunicated means your refusing reconciliation.
zorrox said:
There are even canonized Saints who died excommunicated.

So please don’t exaggerate it’s only God who knows the heart.
Besides popes are not infallible when it comes to these kinds of decisions, they can be used for many reasons not all of them good.
We need to obey anyway but we do not always have to think it’s the best decision.

And we should pray for the Lefevrists and the Protestant heretics and the Byzantine schismatics.
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Who are these canonized Saints? Thats a new one to me.
Also this is about the Pope speaking here, if the Pope says you have violated Church law and are excommunicated our job isnt to say “but this decree isnt infallible”, rather our job is to get reconciled as soon as possible and at the very least dont gamble with your salvation.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
Look at it pragmatically, Doc: The wing-nut leftist bishops can make valid bishops as well as the wing-nut right bishops can. The Holy Father doesn’t want an even larger schism. He won’t be, for instance, repudiating VII (even if he were inclined to do so). He won’t be ditiching collegiality or a lot of other things they’d like to see go in the ditch.
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That’s my point. The Holy Father doesn’t want a larger schism. That’s why either this Holy Father or some future one, when the time comes for the SSPX to ordain successor bishops, is going to do everything in his power to make sure that it appears it is done with papal approval. And if that means ditching collegiality or anything else, that’s what will be done.

The Holy Father doesn’t want a larger schism. That’s the stick. What power does he have to stop it? Simple. Give the SSPX whatever they ask for. And he will.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
Ecclesia Dei which is the offical document Pope John Paul II wrote officially excommunicates the leaders of the Lefebvrists by name and goes onto say anyone who supports them is excommuncated as well.

The fact is excommunication is a mortal sin, of all people the so called “traditionalists” should recognize this. They are in a state of mortal sin right now along with the sin of illicit sacraments, if they want to pretend they can remain sspx and be saved…well I certainly wouldnt put my bets on such a thing…we cant sit by and pretend they are heros or martyrs, the mock the CC and the Pope with their actions.
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The only excommunicates are the four SSPX bishops, Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer. The people who attend SSPX Masses are not excommunicated nor can you point to any statement by the Church that excommunicates them.

Unless you have the misfortune of living in Lincoln which, thankfully, I do not.
 
Dr.Bombay said:
That’s my point. The Holy Father doesn’t want a larger schism. That’s why either this Holy Father or some future one, when the time comes for the SSPX to ordain successor bishops, is going to do everything in his power to make sure that it appears it is done with papal approval. And if that means ditching collegiality or anything else, that’s what will be done.

The Holy Father doesn’t want a larger schism. That’s the stick. What power does he have to stop it? Simple. Give the SSPX whatever they ask for. And he will.
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I think you’re mistaken. He won’t give them whatever they want. You won’t see a repudiation of any part of VII, though you may see a clarification of what it means. You won’t see a radical diminishment of collegiality (the document coming out reputedly allows a bishop to continue to refuse the TLM if he puts it into writing). You aren’t going to see a lot of things that the SSPX want. And they aren’t going to get it, because the giving of it only teaches the lesson many parents already know (and the pope is too smart not to know it as well): if your child throws a fit in the supermarket because he wants a candy bar and you give in, then you’ve set yourself up for another fit and another and another.
 
zorrox said:
There are even canonized Saints who died excommunicated.

So please don’t exaggerate it’s only God who knows the heart.
Besides popes are not infallible when it comes to these kinds of decisions, they can be used for many reasons not all of them good.
We need to obey anyway but we do not always have to think it’s the best decision.

And we should pray for the Lefevrists and the Protestant heretics and the Byzantine schismatics.
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I, too, am curious: what canonized saints died while excommunicated? I know some saints who were excommunicated, but they were reconciled before death. What saints were excommunicated, but canonized anyway though they died in that state?

In truth, I’ve read that excommunication is not necessarily regarded by the Church as out and out condemning someone to hell, as God alone has the final judgement on that score. It is, however, objectively a very bad state in which to die. And the Archbishop died that way, as did Bishop Antonio Castro Mayer.
 
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