Bishop Felley: "I think we'll get an Agreement"

[JKirkLVNV]

The correct number is 120,000,000.

That’s 10% of 1.2 billion, by the way.

120, 000,000 is 30, 000, 000 less than half the current population of the United States (I point that out as a way to mentally picture it). Ergo, no way. The correct number is is far less than a million, I would bet. Now if you’re talking people devoted to the Tridentine Mass, I’m sure the number is larger, but I doubt that even that would approach 120, 000, 000. The Catholic Church (last I checked) only had between 55, 000, 000-65, 000, 000 adherents, roughly 1/5 of the country’s total population.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

120, 000,000 is 30, 000, 000 less than half the current population of the United States (I point that out as a way to mentally picture it). Ergo, no way. The correct number is is far less than a million, I would bet. Now if you’re talking people devoted to the Tridentine Mass, I’m sure the number is larger, but I doubt that even that would approach 120, 000, 000. The Catholic Church (last I checked) only had between 55, 000, 000-65, 000, 000 adherents, roughly 1/5 of the country’s total population.

Don’t be didactic, teach.

120,000,000 is the number of Traditionalists in the Church worldwide. That total was decided months ago by popular acclamation on this very forum. Personally, I think it’s quite a bit larger than that.

You can’t re-write history, even if you want to.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Don’t be didactic, teach.

120,000,000 is the number of Traditionalists in the Church worldwide. That total was decided months ago by popular acclamation on this very forum. Personally, I think it’s quite a bit larger than that.

You can’t re-write history, even if you want to.

Well, Doc, one can personally believe that there are 120, 000, 000 “traditionalists” in the Church worldwide, but then, one can personally believe that the lunar landing was actually filmed on a Burbank soundstage and that Elvis is alive and well and running a yoga studio in South Dakota. And no, we can’t rewrite history, even though we want to. And it depends on what you mean by traditionalist: I regard myself as one…and black birettas on priests, with sheer vestments that you can see through like negligees, give me a case of the snorts (sorry, I just back got from viewing an outspoken “traditionalists” link).

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Well, Doc, one can personally believe that there are 120, 000, 000 “traditionalists” in the Church worldwide, but then, one can personally believe that the lunar landing was actually filmed on a Burbank soundstage and that Elvis is alive and well and running a yoga studio in South Dakota. And no, we can’t rewrite history, even though we want to. And it depends on what you mean by traditionalist: I regard myself as one…and black birettas on priests, with sheer vestments that you can see through like negligees, give me a case of the snorts (sorry, I just back got from viewing an outspoken “traditionalists” link).

Well, I don’t like sheer vestments either. Little too lacy for my taste. But black birettas look sharp. Heathen.

And there’s a lot of things that we accept as “fact” that we have no way of proving. If you and I met in person, could you prove that the earth revolves around the sun? Could you prove that the earth is round? Could you prove that we landed on the moon?

Most people couldn’t. They wouldn’t have a clue how to even begin. But we are just expected to accept much of what goes on around us with little or no proof.

Which means I have just as much proof that there are 120,000,000 Tradtionalists in the Church as you do that there are far fewer.

Check mate. Or, as the Aussies say: “Check, Mate!” :tiphat:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Well, I don’t like sheer vestments either. Little too lacy for my taste. But black birettas look sharp. Heathen.

And there’s a lot of things that we accept as “fact” that we have no way of proving. If you and I met in person, could you prove that the earth revolves around the sun? Could you prove that the earth is round? Could you prove that we landed on the moon?

Most people couldn’t. They wouldn’t have a clue how to even begin. But we are just expected to accept much of what goes on around us with little or no proof.

Which means I have just as much proof that there are 120,000,000 Tradtionalists in the Church as you do that there are far fewer.

Check mate. Or, as the Aussies say: “Check, Mate!” :tiphat:

Again, it depends on what you call “traditionalist.” There are probably feminists in the Church who think THEY’RE traditionalists because, hey, Jesus was a sensitive guy who obviously was killed for challenging the oppressive patriarchal paradigm (in Texas, that’s “para-dig-um”).

 

[Struggling]

If they’re hiding them, then they’re by definition HIDDEN and we don’t know about them,

LOL!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Right. Just what I said. The faithful in the pews are not excommunicated.

Isnt that a contradiction in terms, “faithful” in a “schismatic” chruch? Anyway it says people should “cease any support” and as I said above to say “its not talking about the average layman” well thats simply gambling with ones salvation which isnt worth it. This applies especially those who take on the religious life in sspx.

From your lips to God’s ears…

Meaning what?

Don’t be didactic, teach.

120,000,000 is the number of Traditionalists in the Church worldwide. That total was decided months ago by popular acclamation on this very forum. Personally, I think it’s quite a bit larger than that.

You can’t re-write history, even if you want to.

If you mean “Traditionalist” as in sspx members then thats a bogus number, the Orthodox Church is 250M with 125M of them Russian Orthodox. If by “Traditionalist” you mean those who prefer the “good old days” but remain united to Rome then that number makes sense.

On the sspx HQ page it says there are 463 sspx priests in the world, dividing that into 120M is 260,000 people PER priest ratio…very unrealistic number.
If there were 1M members that would be 2160 people per priest which is still high but more realistic.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Isnt that a contradiction in terms, “faithful” in a “schismatic” chruch? Anyway it says people should “cease any support” and as I said above to say “its not talking about the average layman” well thats simply gambling with ones salvation which isnt worth it. This applies especially those who take on the religious life in sspx.

The SSPX are not schismatic. And you can’t produce one document from the Church that says they are. Although the bishop of Lincoln might have said something to that effect. Who knows. He says many things but he doesn’t speak for the Church.

Meaning what?

Meaning “the fastest way for Rome to bow down to sspx demands is if Fellay threatens to go around ordianing 100 individuals if the Pope doesnt obey Fellay” Meaning, may God hear those wonderful words emanating from your keyboard and act upon them.

If you mean “Traditionalist” as in sspx members then thats a bogus number, the Orthodox Church is 250M with 125M of them Russian Orthodox. If by “Traditionalist” you mean those who prefer the “good old days” but remain united to Rome then that number makes sense.

On the sspx HQ page it says there are 463 sspx priests in the world, dividing that into 120M is 260,000 people PER priest ratio…very unrealistic number.
If there were 1M members that would be 2160 people per priest which is still high but more realistic.

Too bad you don’t have any hard numbers to back up your opinion.

I think it’s much more likely there are at least 250 million Traditionalists worldwide. That’s who’s keeping the righteous hand of God from striking our degenerate planet with his just wrath. But we can stay his hand for only so long…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The SSPX are not schismatic. And you can’t produce one document from the Church that says they are. Although the bishop of Lincoln might have said something to that effect. Who knows. He says many things but he doesn’t speak for the Church.

The sspx are schismatic because the sspx leaders are explicitly excommunicated in an official papal decree, Ecclesia Dei.

Meaning “the fastest way for Rome to bow down to sspx demands is if Fellay threatens to go around ordianing 100 individuals if the Pope doesnt obey Fellay” Meaning, may God hear those wonderful words emanating from your keyboard and act upon them.

I still dont follow, where is God in this? Are you saying Fellay should really submit a letter to Rome telling them he will ordain 100 bishops/priests in a few months if Rome doesnt obey him? I would bet God would act negitavely on Fellay if he dared submit something like that.

Too bad you don’t have any hard numbers to back up your opinion.

Where do you get your numbers?

I think it’s much more likely there are at least 250 million Traditionalists worldwide. That’s who’s keeping the righteous hand of God from striking our degenerate planet with his just wrath. But we can stay his hand for only so long…

Im still not sure who you mean by “Traditionalists”.

If you mean there are 120M-250M SSPX MEMBERS that number is clearly bogus.

If you mean “Traditionalists” as in those unquestionably obedient to Rome who separate themselves from the secular world and live a Godly lifestyle then I would agree there are that many “Traditionalists”. And I also agree thats whats keeping back God from punishing mankind on a grand scale.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

The sspx are schismatic because the sspx leaders are explicitly excommunicated in an official papal decree, Ecclesia Dei.

The Church does not consider the SSPX to be schismatic. It is considered an internal Church matter. Schismatics are not inside the Church.

I still dont follow, where is God in this? Are you saying Fellay should really submit a letter to Rome telling them he will ordain 100 bishops/priests in a few months if Rome doesnt obey him? I would bet God would act negitavely on Fellay if he dared submit something like that.

I’m saying when the time comes for the SSPX to ordain bishops, Rome will become much more amenable to a reconcilliation.

Where do you get your numbers?

Same place you got yours presumably.

Im still not sure who you mean by “Traditionalists”.

If you mean there are 120M-250M SSPX MEMBERS that number is clearly bogus.

If you mean “Traditionalists” as in those unquestionably obedient to Rome who separate themselves from the secular world and live a Godly lifestyle then I would agree there are that many “Traditionalists”. And I also agree thats whats keeping back God from punishing mankind on a grand scale.

You know. Traditionalists. Those who preserve Tradition as it has been handed on to us from our fathers and as we will hand it on to our progeny. Those who reject novel doctrines that some propose for belief that directly contradict previous infallible pronouncements.

Traditionalists. It’s not that hard a word to understand.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The Church does not consider the SSPX to be schismatic. It is considered an internal Church matter. Schismatics are not inside the Church.

The bishops are in excommunicated and in schism, the priests are suspended ad divinis, and the faithful are warned against association with schism through their attendance at their Masses(interviews with personable cardinals aside, there’s *Eccelsia Dei *promulgated by John Paul (da Great!))

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc…

 

[Dr.Bombay]

The bishops are in excommunicated and in schism, the priests are suspended ad divinis, and the faithful are warned against association with schism through their attendance at their Masses(interviews with personable cardinals aside, there’s *Eccelsia Dei *promulgated by John Paul (da Great!))

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc…

While I respect your personal opinion on the matter, Kirk, you are wrong. You cannot produce one document from the Church declaring the SSPX to be schismatic. And again I qualify: The Deposit of Faith does not repose in Lincoln.

Just because you have a bee in your bonnet over the SSPX doesn’t mean the Church does. The Holy See has always treated this as an internal Church matter. Which it is. That’s how the “dialogue” is proceeding. Period.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

While I respect your personal opinion on the matter, Kirk, you are wrong. You cannot produce one document from the Church declaring the SSPX to be schismatic. And again I qualify: The Deposit of Faith does not repose in Lincoln.

Just because you have a bee in your bonnet over the SSPX doesn’t mean the Church does. The Holy See has always treated this as an internal Church matter. Which it is. That’s how the “dialogue” is proceeding. Period.

Fine, then there’s no reason whatsoever for reconcilation to be sought after on their part or ours (someone should really inform both the Holy See and the Society that they can stop giving interviews on the topic of “when are they coming back?,”), and I’ll be attending Bishop Fellay’s pending celebration of the normative Mass of the Church (the Pauline Rite). Maybe we can sing, “The City of God” together, if only as a penance.

Doc, with all due affection and respect, you’re wrong. You yourself wouldn’t be warning us that they can hive off and consecrate bishops without papal approval (“so there, Pope Benedict…thhppppttt!”) if there wasn’t schism, because they already exist in that state inasmuch as that’s what they’ve already done! Sure, the odd layman coming trotting in and out of their Mass may or may not be schismatic, depending on their attitude, but the leaders are excommunicate, the priests have no faculties, and the faithful are still cautioned against assisting at their masses!

And I don’t have a bee in my bonnet. I hope they come back. I hope the Tridentine Mass is granted everywhere. I’m just not the type of person to stand by while someone is scratching an elephant behind the ears and saying,“Nice doggie!” I’m the igit that can be counted on to say,“Oy! That’s an elephant you’ve got there! All the flea dip in the world isn’t going to make it a dog.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

The Church does not consider the SSPX to be schismatic. It is considered an internal Church matter. Schismatics are not inside the Church.

Yes it does, it not only explicitly and officially excommunicates sspx leadership it extends this punishment to any who get on their bandwaggon. You cant deny Fellay is excommunicated and a state of very grave sin, as are his partners in crime.

The funny thing is excommunication is that the excommunicated individual always considers themself “orthodox”, where the real disease comes in is that on their web page they profess “loyalty” to the Pope (which also serves to mislead laymen).

Here is a thread I made a while back, one of my favorite quotes is the following:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70425
SSPX webpage: … the Orthodox, even if they have a valid Eucharist and a valid priesthood and apostolic succession, they have this apostolic succession only materially, not formally, because they are not linked to the Pope. Moreover, they do not recognize quite a lot of dogmas. … especially, they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope. They are schismatics and even, to a certain point, heretics.

I’m saying when the time comes for the SSPX to ordain bishops, Rome will become much more amenable to a reconcilliation.

I hope there is a reconciliation, at the same time I dont approve of blackmail against our Pope.

Same place you got yours presumably.

Mine was more of an educated guess.

You know. Traditionalists. Those who preserve Tradition as it has been handed on to us from our fathers and as we will hand it on to our progeny. Those who reject novel doctrines that some propose for belief that directly contradict previous infallible pronouncements.

Traditionalists. It’s not that hard a word to understand.

Thats not what I asked. When you say 120M-250M “Traditionalists” do you mean they are ALL sspx MEMBERS?

 

[Dr.Bombay]

You’re being flippant, Kirk. Fellay is not required nor expected to “celebrate” the Pauline Mass.

And considering where you come from, you shouldn’t be so eager to declare others outside the Barque of Peter. “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” still applies here.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Thats not what I asked. When you say 120M-250M “Traditionalists” do you mean they are ALL sspx MEMBERS?

They’re not even “traditionalists” as “traditionalists” define “traditionalists.”

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Yes it does, it not only explicitly and officially excommunicates sspx leadership it extends this punishment to any who get on their bandwaggon. You cant deny Fellay is excommunicated and a state of very grave sin, as are his partners in crime.

The funny thing is excommunication is that the excommunicated individual always considers themself “orthodox”, where the real disease comes in is that on their web page they profess “loyalty” to the Pope (which also serves to mislead laymen).

You’re playing semantic games. Lay people who attend Mass at an SSPX chapel are not excommunicate nor are the priests who say those Masses.

Here is a thread I made a while back, one of my favorite quotes is the following:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=70425SSPX webpage: … the Orthodox, even if they have a valid Eucharist and a valid priesthood and apostolic succession, they have this apostolic succession only materially, not formally, because they are not linked to the Pope. Moreover, they do not recognize quite a lot of dogmas. … especially, they do not recognize the primacy of the Pope. They are schismatics and even, to a certain point, heretics.

Great. Why don’t you quote Pastor Aeternus too? That’s always a favorite out-of-context quote machine for the SSPX haters.

I hope there is a reconciliation, at the same time I dont approve of blackmail against our Pope.

You say blackmail. I say fait accompli. Semantics again.

Mine was more of an educated guess.

Oh, okay. As long as it was educated.

Thats not what I asked. When you say 120M-250M “Traditionalists” do you mean they are ALL sspx MEMBERS?

Now, how am I supposed to know? Do you know how long it would take to call a quarter billion people? And the cost! Even on nights and weekends! :nope:

 

[Dr.Bombay]

They’re not even “traditionalists” as “traditionalists” define “traditionalists.”

Now you’re being insulting. You know how to capitalize. I’ve seen you do it before. :tsktsk:

 

[JKirkLVNV]

And considering where you come from, you shouldn’t be so eager to declare others outside the Barque of Peter. “Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus” still applies here.

**I **haven’t juridicially declared anyone outside the Barque of Peter, dear friend. I don’t have the authority to do so. I’ve merely repeated the words of the one who DID juridicially declare it and who cautioned those still IN the boat, but dipping their big toe into the water to test it, to watch out for the Great White Shark headed their way.

And trust me, I’m NOT eager to declare anyone outside the Church. Not to indulge in histronics, EENS haunts me.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Now you’re being insulting. You know how to capitalize. I’ve seen you do it before. :tsktsk:

Sorry…“Traditionalists.”