Bishop orders priests to read anti-Obama letter at Sunday sermons

[Swiss_Guy]

He doesn’t. But just like us, he can justifiably support a candidate like Romney due to the extreme danger of the other choice according to the principle given to us by Pope John Paul II in his Gospel of Life encyclical.

That’s what I thought, but the poster I was responding to said that he did support it in those cases. Maybe he was thinking that based on Ryan’s remarks in the VP debate where he said a Romney administration would oppose abortion except in cases of rape and incest. But notice the “Romney administration”, not “I am opposed to abortion except…”

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

But is that a Catholic belief that a political candidate can never be mentioned in a homily or is that an American belief? Another thing is, it’s not like he does it every time. He only did it once.

Well now I’m going to have to scramble for quotations, but I’m quite sure it’s a Catholic belief. There has to be an article somewhere. Someone beat me to it.

 

[He_Man]

I’ve only perused this thread, and it seems to have gone off topic a while ago.

That bishop was wrong. That letter should not have been read at Mass. It should have been put into the bulletin, but Mass was not the place, and is never the place, for politics. The point is that if we’re preaching the Gospel right as a community, then it should be a no-brainer as to who gets the “Catholic vote.” So the emphasis should not suddenly switch to Obama (which is lazy) but should remain focused on the Gospels and Christ (which we should teach by word *and *example, which is hard). Mass is such an intimate place for prayer and communion. I would have walked out on Mass if I’d have heard that and gone to a parish in another dioscese.

It is your opinion it was wrong. Others disagree, as does the Bishop. Half the people don’t read the bulletin. I do 50% of the time. If you want to get your message, a Catholic message of the utmost import across to your flock, you do it when it is most effective. Worrying about hurting people’s feelings is not going to save any souls, which is his job.

There is nothing stated infallibly about speaking of voting practices for Catholics at Mass. US law may have something to say, but short of telling people who they HAVE to vote for, even that isn’t much ground to stand on.

If you want to leave the diocese, go ahead. As long as you heed the message, If you ignore the message, then you weren’t going to listen even if it was in the bulletin, and that kind of disqualifies your critique.

 

[CMatt25]

I would have walked out on Mass if I’d have heard that and gone to a parish in another dioscese.

I would have walked out too. I would have walked out of a weekday Mass once too when I heard the priest say in his homily his answer to the poor was to get a job had I not been there in memory of a loved one. Actually I’ve only walked back in there one time since also in memory due to scheduling. But have never again. I in good conscience can not do it.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I would have walked out too. I would have walked out of a weekday Mass once too when I heard the priest say in his homily his answer to the poor was to get a job had I not been there in memory of a loved one.

Leaving obligatory Mass early without a good reason could be a sin. There was a time when I got frustrated once during the homily because the priest was talking about the occupy movement and why they were occupying. It seemed evident to me that he had no idea who these people were or what was going on.

I don’t think I thought about leaving, but I do know one of the priests in my county said people left during some kind of event at Church (I think it was a Mass) where he told them the parish would have to close for financial reason.

I find these acts to be selfish and against God. We need to be supportive of each other despite our differences of opinion.

Be on guard against anger!

 

[SuperLuigi]

I don’t think Ryan supports abortion in cases of rape and incest.

That would be great news.

 

[He_Man]

Leaving obligatory Mass early without a good reason could be a sin. There was a time when I got frustrated once during the homily because the priest was talking about the occupy movement and why they were occupying. It seemed evident to me that he had no idea who these people were or what was going on.

I don’t think I thought about leaving, but I do know one of the priests in my county said people left during some kind of event at Church (I think it was a Mass) where he told them the parish would have to close for financial reason.

I find these acts to be selfish and against God. We need to be supportive of each other despite our differences of opinion.

Be on guard against anger!

You are there to receive the Eucharist. Priests come and go, but Christ is eternal. We need to remember why we are there.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

It is your opinion it was wrong. Others disagree, as does the Bishop. Half the people don’t read the bulletin. I do 50% of the time. If you want to get your message, a Catholic message of the utmost import across to your flock, you do it when it is most effective. Worrying about hurting people’s feelings is not going to save any souls, which is his job…

No one is talking about hurting others feelings. Mass is all about saving souls, and that is what happens at Mass, in the Eucharist, which is the central mystery of our Faith, and should not be dirtied with political posturing.

There is nothing stated infallibly about speaking of voting practices for Catholics at Mass. US law may have something to say, but short of telling people who they HAVE to vote for, even that isn’t much ground to stand on. .

During Mass, it’s not supposed to happen. What I said was that, if we as Catholics have been taught correctly, we would know that Mass and receiving the Eucharist happen in what is called Kairos, or sacred, time. Kronos, normal time, is not supposed to enter into it. If this letter can be read at Mass, what’s to stop us from using IPhones and going on-line during Mass, as long as we’re researching important social issues. We are to leave all cell phones off and even remove watches in order to focus on God in the Eucharist.

If you want to leave the diocese, go ahead. As long as you heed the message, If you ignore the message, then you weren’t going to listen even if it was in the bulletin, and that kind of disqualifies your critique.

No you’re missing my point entirely. Nothing you’ve said disqualifies anything. I haven’t ignored any message. I’m saying that Mass was absolutely positively NOT the place where that letter should have been read.

There are sources out there, but it’s getting late and I might just have to hit my own actual books rather than depend on the Internet. But I did find this, Dominicae Cenae, written by John Paul II, and it’s very long. I’ve excerpted it hoping that some of the beauty that JPII wrote about the Eucharist might be effective.

There seems to be an error on this thread that somehow reading this letter in Mass was a good thing and thus perhaps the act should be repeated, or that now we’re going in the right direction. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2domin.htm
**DOMINICAE CENAE (On The Mystery And Worship Of The Eucharist)
Pope John Paul II​

Promulgated On 24 February 1980

…]
In view of this fact, the Church has a special duty to safeguard and strengthen the sacredness of the Eucharist. In our pluralistic and often deliberately secularized society, the living faith of the Christian community—a faith always aware of its rights vis-a-vis those who do not share that faith—ensures respect for this sacredness. The duty to respect each person’s faith is the complement of the natural and civil right to freedom of conscience and of religion.

The sacred character of the Eucharist has found and continues to find expression in the terminology of theology and the liturgy.[44] This sense of the objective sacred character of the Eucharistic Mystery is so much part of the faith of the People of God that their faith is enriched and strengthened by it.[45] Therefore the ministers of the Eucharist must, especially today, be illumined by the fullness of this living faith, and in its light they must understand and perform all that is part, by Christ’s will and the will of His Church, of their priestly ministry.**

 

[Faithdancer]

My sense is that these letters and statements will have little impact. People have largely made up their minds by now.

John

Unfortunately, I believe you are right. So many “Catholics” are heterodox in their views, whether in vacillating on abortion or supporting same sex “marriage.” In their ignorance of natural law and their seduction by the evil that is moral relativism, they think they know better than what the Church teaches, and assume that the Church is just being “old fashioned” or “anti-progressive.” These same folks would probably even vote for a professed atheist if his or her views on “social justice” coincided with their own disordered thinking.

Reading the Bishop’s letter in Mass is an extraordinary measure, but no more extraordinary than others I’ve heard such as those encouraging parishioners to turn out to protest a planned new abortion clinic or to sign a petition to end capital punishment. Politicians who support abortion on demand and same sex “marriage” represent an evil that calls for extraordinary measures by our bishops, and I applaud Bishop Jenky and his decision. If so many Catholics weren’t so ignorant and/or defiant of Church teachings then the extraordinary measures wouldn’t be necessary!

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

You are there to receive the Eucharist. Priests come and go, but Christ is eternal. We need to remember why we are there.

This was my point all along. And I should clarify that I didn’t mean that I would leave my dioscese (Chicago, so I’m near Peoria) but that even having left that Mass, I might have journeyed to a Mass (most likely southern Wisconsin) where the letter was not being read.

 

[He_Man]

No one is talking about hurting others feelings. Mass is all about saving souls, and that is what happens at Mass, in the Eucharist, which is the central mystery of our Faith, and should not be dirtied with political posturing.

During Mass, it’s not supposed to happen. What I said was that, if we as Catholics have been taught correctly, we would know that Mass and receiving the Eucharist happen in what is called Kairos, or sacred, time. Kronos, normal time, is not supposed to enter into it. If this letter can be read at Mass, what’s to stop us from using IPhones and going on-line during Mass, as long as we’re researching important social issues. We are to leave all cell phones off and even remove watches in order to focus on God in the Eucharist.

No you’re missing my point entirely. Nothing you’ve said disqualifies anything. I haven’t ignored any message. I’m saying that Mass was absolutely positively NOT the place where that letter should have been read.

There are sources out there, but it’s getting late and I might just have to hit my own actual books rather than depend on the Internet. But I did find this, Dominicae Cenae, written by John Paul II, and it’s very long. I’ve excerpted it hoping that some of the beauty that JPII wrote about the Eucharist might be effective.

There seems to be an error on this thread that somehow reading this letter in Mass was a good thing and thus perhaps the act should be repeated, or that now we’re going in the right direction. That couldn’t be further from the truth.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/jp2domin.htm
**DOMINICAE CENAE (On The Mystery And Worship Of The Eucharist)
Pope John Paul II​

Promulgated On 24 February 1980

…]
In view of this fact, the Church has a special duty to safeguard and strengthen the sacredness of the Eucharist. In our pluralistic and often deliberately secularized society, the living faith of the Christian community—a faith always aware of its rights vis-a-vis those who do not share that faith—ensures respect for this sacredness. The duty to respect each person’s faith is the complement of the natural and civil right to freedom of conscience and of religion.

The sacred character of the Eucharist has found and continues to find expression in the terminology of theology and the liturgy.[44] This sense of the objective sacred character of the Eucharistic Mystery is so much part of the faith of the People of God that their faith is enriched and strengthened by it.[45] Therefore the ministers of the Eucharist must, especially today, be illumined by the fullness of this living faith, and in its light they must understand and perform all that is part, by Christ’s will and the will of His Church, of their priestly ministry.**

I still disagree, but that;s fine. Would you be okay with weaving the voting responsibilities into a homily? That happens from time to time, and many times, the homily is suspended for a taped message from the Bishop about donating and tithing.

I don’t believe we exist as Catholics to simply go to Mass and receive the Eucharist. We are here to save souls, and do something with our faith. Short of being a contemplative, simply attending Mass is not enough as a Catholic. Not to mention, the Church is clear on the responsibilities of voting, per Catholic law. We receieve moral guidance in Mass all the time for various aspects of our life. The role of the husband, wife, parents, neighbor, evangelizing, being stewards. I don’t see our role as Catholic citizens as off limits or inappropriate. Not to mention, if the Church had being more fervent in the past 30 years or so, or the faithful had listened and not become so prideful that they ignored the Church, this would not even be necessary. The fact that the faithful have to be told how to vote is pathetic and speaks ill of them as Catholics, frankly.

 

[He_Man]

This was my point all along. And I should clarify that I didn’t mean that I would leave my dioscese (Chicago, so I’m near Peoria) but that even having left that Mass, I might have journeyed to a Mass (most likely southern Wisconsin) where the letter was not being read.

And when you hear something at that Mass you don’t like eventually, what then? Move on again? I have varying opinions of Priests, but only one of God.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

I still disagree, but that;s fine. Would you be okay with weaving the voting responsibilities into a homily? That happens from time to time, and many times, the homily is suspended for a taped message from the Bishop about donating and tithing.

I don’t believe we exist as Catholics to simply go to Mass and receive the Eucharist. We are here to save souls, and do something with our faith. Short of being a contemplative, simply attending Mass is not enough as a Catholic. Not to mention, the Church is clear on the responsibilities of voting, per Catholic law. We receieve moral guidance in Mass all the time for various aspects of our life. The role of the husband, wife, parents, neighbor, evangelizing, being stewards. I don’t see our role as Catholic citizens as off limits or inappropriate. Not to mention, if the Church had being more fervent in the past 30 years or so, or the faithful had listened and not become so prideful that they ignored the Church, this would not even be necessary. The fact that the faithful have to be told how to vote is pathetic and speaks ill of them as Catholics, frankly.

I agree with you entirely. Of course there is always an obligatory “how to vote” kind of homily, which never in my experience included the mention of a candidate, but we all kind of smirked or gave that knowing nod to each other (“he means we’re supposed to vote Romney”). There is of course that scripture where Jesus talks about giving to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar and give to God what is due God (which has been mentioned earlier).

You said “I don’t believe we exist as Catholics to simply go to Mass and receive the Eucharist,” and neither do I. I never meant to imply that I believe that. But when at Mass, for that hour or hour and a half, it is our *vocation *to give that time specifically to God and God alone. The homily is always supposed to be based on the scripture of the day, and it is the priest’s job to *relate *the scripture to us. The celebrant is of course allowed to use anecdotes, personal narrative, if he feels it somehow will help shed light on the meaning *of that scripture, *and I’m sure in that context politics comes up on occasion (it has at parishes where I’ve belonged). Also there are occasions where there is a special reason that the usual homily is disregarded for a visiting speaker. etc. etc.

All this bishop had to do was call a press conference and get that letter published. This is already news, and it would have been news if it had not been “ordered” to be read at Mass. That’s why I loved this quote from JPII, that we have “a special *duty *to safeguard and strengthen the sacredness of the Eucharist.” Too often it seems that the “pluralistic and often deliberately secularized society” invades the Church and converts us rather than the other way around. When the battery for our cell phone is being “charged” we cannot use it. That’s because it’s being filled with energy so that it can function for us later. Being in Church, in the presense of the Eucharist, is the same thing. And if we really believed it was the same thing, we would fight to keep that time sacred so that we can then come out fully charged when the Gospels are threatened, as we all know that they are, *outside *of Mass.

I didn’t mean to do a sermon myself, but I wanted to be clear. I hope I am. What’s done is done. I just hope it doesn’t set a precedence. Mark 14:7 "“For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you wish you can do good to them; but you do not always have Me.” There are always social injustices that need to be addressed, but when we are with God, we seperate from the world and are with God.

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

And when you hear something at that Mass you don’t like eventually, what then? Move on again? I have varying opinions of Priests, but only one of God.

No, I’m not that kind of person. I believe that everyone has a vocation to belong to the parish whose borders that we live within. I’ve been beat up loads of times when I say that to other Catholics who go to another parish because they “like it better there.” What I was trying to say was that, if I heard that letter during Mass, I think I would have become too wound up and not at peace to be ready to receive the Eucharist. We are supposed to put ourselves in the right frame of mind to receive communion, a preparation that we’re supposed to start at least an hour before Mass, but hearing Obama’s name in the context of Mass would have put me smack down into Kronos and ripped me right out of Kairos. That’s why I say I would have left. I’ve endured plenty of homilies, in my old parish, where the priest had a severe Slavic accent, and I couldn’t understand a word he said. But it was my parish and I stayed. And suffered.

 

[TexCatholic4JMJ]

It is your opinion it was wrong. Others disagree, as does the Bishop. Half the people don’t read the bulletin. I do 50% of the time. If you want to get your message, a Catholic message of the utmost import across to your flock, you do it when it is most effective. Worrying about hurting people’s feelings is not going to save any souls, which is his job.

There is nothing stated infallibly about speaking of voting practices for Catholics at Mass. US law may have something to say, but short of telling people who they HAVE to vote for, even that isn’t much ground to stand on.

If you want to leave the diocese, go ahead. As long as you heed the message, If you ignore the message, then you weren’t going to listen even if it was in the bulletin, and that kind of disqualifies your critique.

I agree that this was the only way to have people take it seriously.

 

[ishii]

No, it does not. Your reasoning here is the same many Democrats use. It is even written into the voter’s guide as a acceptable as long as one is not voting for a pro-abortion candidate for the purpose of supporting abortion. Prudential judgement cuts both ways.

And on topics like healthcare and immigration, while many options are acceptable, being callous of the poor and needy, even through government, is not an acceptable Catholic position.

Cafeteria Catholics come in both red and blue.

Okay, pnewton, let me re-phrase then: If the liberal Democrat Catholics flout Catholic teaching on social issues like abortion and gay rights, one what issues does the conservative Republican Catholic flout Catholic teaching? Or, to put it another way, in what way do conservatives remain faithful to their wife yet treat her like dirt?

Ishii

 

[LisaA]

No, I’m not that kind of person. I believe that everyone has a vocation to belong to the parish whose borders that we live within. I’ve been beat up loads of times when I say that to other Catholics who go to another parish because they “like it better there.” What I was trying to say was that, if I heard that letter during Mass, I think I would have become too wound up and not at peace to be ready to receive the Eucharist. We are supposed to put ourselves in the right frame of mind to receive communion, a preparation that we’re supposed to start at least an hour before Mass, but hearing Obama’s name in the context of Mass would have put me smack down into Kronos and ripped me right out of Kairos. That’s why I say I would have left. I’ve endured plenty of homilies, in my old parish, where the priest had a severe Slavic accent, and I couldn’t understand a word he said. But it was my parish and I stayed. And suffered.

Why? What was so offensive or controversial about the letter that it would have put you into a tizzy? I thought it was relatively innocuous, simply reminding of Catholic teaching and asking for a thoughtful approach to voting? So it seems you disagree with the Bishop’s words? You think he was wrong? Truly do not understand why you would find the letter disturbing. Was Obama’s name mentioned? I didn’t think so. Now I agree hearing that name puts ME into fits of rage but again, I don’t recall the Bishop specificially naming a candidate.

I think people in this country are too easily offended. It’s not about US and we need to get over our big bad selves.

Lisa

 

[Nom_the_Wise]

Why? What was so offensive or controversial about the letter that it would have put you into a tizzy?

A tizzy? You actually said “a tizzy”? This is very condescending language. Clearly you didn’t read what I wrote.

I thought it was relatively innocuous, simply reminding of Catholic teaching and asking for a thoughtful approach to voting?

There is only a summary of the letter in the article, and a very brief one at that. If you have the full text, please share it here.

So it seems you disagree with the Bishop’s words?
.

No. I didn’t say that. I disagree with him forcing all the celebrants of his diocese to read a letter **DURING MASS **that names a political candidate.

You think he was wrong? Truly do not understand why you would find the letter disturbing. Was Obama’s name mentioned? ** I didn’t think so. ** Now I agree hearing that name puts ME into fits of rage but again, I don’t recall the Bishop specificially naming a candidate.

According to this *summary *of the letter, Obama was clearly mentioned:
*"In the letter, Jenky cautions parishioners that **Obama *and a majority of U.S. senators will not reconsider the mandate that would require employers, including religious groups, to provide free birth control coverage in their health care plans. “This assault upon our religious freedom is simply without precedent in the American political and legal system,” Jenky wrote.
“Today, Catholic politicians, bureaucrats, and their electoral supporters who callously enable the destruction of innocent human life in the womb also thereby reject Jesus as their Lord,” Jenky added. “They are objectively guilty of grave sin.”

Read more here: mcclatchydc.com/2012/10/31/173269/bishop-orders-priests-to-read.html#storylink=cpy#storylink=cpy

I think people in this country are too easily offended. It’s not about US and we need to get over our big bad selves.

Lisa

I’m asking people to think about/pray about the truth of what I’ve said here. Partisan politics do not belong at Mass. You’re right though. Much of the US is prideful, and many certainly need to get over their “big bad selves” and realize that Mass should be a humbling time, a quiet time for mediation and receiving Christ in the Eucharist, rather than being a bull horn for partisan politics during the Holy hour reserved for God alone.

 

[ahaley]

Nearly two thousand years ago, after our Savior had been bound, beaten, scourged, mocked, and crowned with thorns, a pagan Roman Procurator displayed Jesus to a hostile crowd by sarcastically declaring: “Behold your King.” The mob roared back: “We have no king but Caesar.” Today, Catholic politicians, bureaucrats, and their electoral supporters who callously enable the destruction of innocent human life in the womb also thereby reject Jesus as their Lord. They are objectively guilty of grave sin. For those who hope for salvation, no political loyalty can ever take precedence over loyalty to the Lord Jesus Christ and to his Gospel of Life. God is not mocked, and as the Bible clearly teaches, after this passing instant of life on earth, God’s great mercy in time will give way to God’s perfect judgment in eternity.

This is incredibly powerful. It’s also politically neutral - it takes to task any Catholic who support abortion. It’s not Bishop Jenky’s problem if one party has a greater proportion of individuals who reject life than the other. This isn’t “vote for Romney” at all.

I made the mistake of reading MSNBC’s take on the matter. Clever that they make a big deal out of the letter, their readers went into a froth, but they didn’t bother to present the actual text of the letter.

Sorry for rambling. I get frustrated that so much of the media, and so much of America, immediately move to insult and mockery when the word “Catholic” is uttered (especially online). There could be a story on CNN about a priest saving a dozen orphans from a house fire, and still someone would comment “he only saved them to rape them” or something just as ridiculous.

Alan

 

[pnewton]

Or, to put it another way, in what way do conservatives remain faithful to their wife yet treat her like dirt?

Ishii

The reception of Caritas in Veritate comes to mind.